Dave T

Fingers crossed mate. I've only seen the result and tries as was at a work event, but that is a great win.

The home opener and 2nd game we're really poor. Maybe tonight's win will start to make people think twice.

It's pretty depressing as a Wire fan to see the buzz around many other clubs and the drop off at Warrington.

Again, that's a fair view, although I think it's overstated personally. You're right, we do need a competitive bunch of teams, I won't disagree with that. I think ultimately the point here comes down to there being a substantial cost to French teams being in the UK structure, and as things stand, those additional costs have just been paid out of the central funding for Catalans and the clubs pockets for the half a million quid or so travel. That's a lot of money for RL. They didn't prepare and plan for this up front. That has become problematic as Toulouse and TWP were admitted on different terms. That is breaking the system. And the root cause, ultimately goes back to these teams just being guests in a UK pyramid rather than a real stakeholder partnership. But one way or another, the costs of overseas teams needs to be addressed and agreed and we move on, because it ain't good to keep having these issues, and bond discussions etc. I expect that is where this is driven, they expect Toulouse to come up. One thing I would say, many fans do seem angrier than Gausch over this, which is interesting, because Gausch does like to get angry

At some stage though, that needs to become cold hard cash.

I think the above is a fair view. My personal view is that there isn't material value from a UK TV deal for Catalans being there. Let's be honest, Sky cover them begrudgingly over the years. Of course that doesn't mean Catalans don't bring value, but I think there is a fair argument that there isn't a clear financial benefit. In similar ways that people have overstated the importance of London, Bradford and Toronto. I'm an expansion isn't, so I dont think we are necessarily disagreeing on the end point (that these clubs should be in SL) , I just don't really mind charging people/clubs for involvement.

Agreed, we discussed who I think should be responsible and I think we are in agreement. But I don't think that means overseas teams shouldn't have any buy in. As long as agreed in advance, I'm not a fan of moving the goalposts.

It's not about having some of Catalans' pot - it's about tapping into some of the French pot. There has to be a return

Your 2nd para is where I think there is a big challenge. It is difficult to bring in more overseas teams without a plan on how it will be funded. I go back to my original point on this - let's work on the assumption that central funding is £1.5m per annum for rounding purposes - that if £15m per French club over 10 years. Plus c£500k per annum travel costs from having a French club. That's a further £5m over a decade. So it is a £20m 'investment' to have a French team in SL over 10 years. If that becomes two clubs, then that is £40m over a decade. That is serious money, and it would be negligent to not consider whether the UK game is right to spend that money in that way. IT makes sense that we are maybe looking for consistency as we increase overseas teams. People always like to then throw in the argument abut "what do Salford/Hudds etc bring to the table" - but the answer is that the UK clubs have a value as a collective. That value is in the form of UK sponsors and media partners, but wider than that, each British club is a hub for RL activity in Britain. I know we like to be critical of our clubs, but they all work in the communities, they all develop players, they all bring in sponsors, funding etc for the development of British RL. And where we think that they don't add value, we have been happy to oust them. When I started watching RL we had up to 16 British teams in the top flight - we have absolutely been ruthless in trimming to optimise value. We've had as few as 10 British clubs at times, and it may be a challenge to go lower than that. Again, people love to criticise everything we do in Britain, but we deliver decent crowds, great TV, and a lot of high quality athletes for such a niche sport. But onto the question of what I'd do. Well, I do believe that we should invest in France. But I do think we should be comfortable with putting demands in place on what it costs to take part. All of the costs for Catalans so far have been from the RFL/SLE central funding pot - with no funds coming back into the central pot. As acknowledged, that is as much a failing on the SLE/RFL as much as the club (lack of strategy to capitalise on their presence), but that is why we are where we are. As per one of my previous posts, I'd like to see a French governing body overseeing the French teams, with them as a stakeholder in SLE. I know we'll disagree on this, but I don't have an issue with selling places with guarantees etc. (no relegation). But I also don't have an issue with us expecting some return on the £30m+ that has been 'invested' in Catalans so far. Let's be brutally honest here for a second - every penny of commercial income raised in France is going directly into Catalans' pockets - if there was a buy-in fee, it's a given that some of that would suddenly find its way into the central pot. But that should be driven by the French 'governing body' rather than the individual club, who should be responsible for themselves. I love the French presence in SL, I'd increase it, I'd secure it. But I'd be perfectly happy to lay out the costs for the benefits that they get. That £30m+ investment has delivered a strong French RL club - I'm not sure it has delivered real tangible benefits to SL, other than the softer perception benefits - which shouldn't be undersold. There is an argument that this investment is closer to the NRL's Vegas initiative rather than the NZ Warriors investment. And Iblame that on a real lack of planning and knowing what they wanted out of it.

Toronto left SL themselves. The vote was to not allow the Deoderant salesman in.

Cheers - I did mean to highlight football as an exclusion, as you both point out, it is operating on a different level.

Yeah, it was more of an open question rather than aimed at you specifically, I don't think you have made those claims directly.

Are there any monetary values of international tv deals that can be used as a benchmark for RL? It's a similar conversation to some of the TWP stuff, where people claimed we could get x% of the market it'd be worth £xxm's per year. But in reality, Fox in the US can probably pick these rights up for a pittance. Is there a precedent here for international sports earning money from traditional tv deals from American broadcasters?

The big difference here isn't just at the individual club level, it's the fact that these clubs are underpinned by their governing bodies, who are underpinned by the international game. Combining the governing bodies income and investment levels absolutely dwarfs anything we see in RL. It's allowed them to streamline their club operations and create this international comp and support the international game.

I could write a business plan now and it would mean nowt. I expect the original owners claimed they'd pay their players too.

It is interesting to see PVL once again saying that he hopes this Vegas thing brings in hundreds of millions of dollars over the next few years. I have no issue with the NRL spending some of their many millions profit on nothing more than a vanity project. I think it's fine having the objective of being a bit of a speculator - can they get some US eyeballs on the product to drive TV, gambling, sponsor and investor value, can they give their season launch a boost in Oz, can they give their fans something to enjoy, create a buzz? But it does appear to be difficult to see how hundreds of millions of quid is coming.

Apparently 40k and 60k viewers on FS1 in the US for these games.

Absolutely, it has to be better than now, that can't be doubted. Whether it can be good enough, we'll see.

Agreed, I don't think they will be anti-Catalans, but nor do I think they'll push for more French growth, outside of maybe Toulouse who are already in the system. In fact one of the first things that came up with the limit on overseas teams. But I also think they will be OK with Catalans paying for travel. They are a club who boast possibly the highest commercial income in Super League, yet not a penny has come into the central pit, which they draw £1.3m per annum from. Removing the emotion from this, there is a rationale here. I thought Gausch's comments were surprisingly pragmatic tbh. He appeared to agree with the UK clubs and be critical of the broadcasters.

I sometimes struggle to keep up with Salford tbh, I'm glad they will survive to fight another day. Does anyone really see a bright future for them? Like, is there a chance that a better stadium deal will see them be able to really fulfil their potential and become a really strong club?

Indeed. And the hope with IMG was that we may have a better understanding of the international markets, but I do also think that IMG are ruthlessly focused on commercial income, that I'm not sure will come from France. I'm not convinced they are bothered by the romance of French expansion that many of us are. Nor are they that bothered about the softer benefits to the sport imo. I'd like to see uo to four places sold to a French commercial arm, who could 'buy' places, with clear commercial terms agreed. But I agree with you, the power inbalance means it's almost impossible to see anythibg like that happen.

To challenge this view somewhat, on your 2nd para, about the governing body sorting it out, what if their way of sorting it out was to not allow French teams into the UK pyramid. People may come out with soundbites about it being a. European comp, but it ain't really, all the power is with the UK clubs and governing body. On a simple basis here, Catalans have had central funding totalling around £25m to £30m and as Gausch acknowledges have tipped nothing back into the central pot. Their presence brings costs of maybe £500k - which I expect in some years has wiped out the whole of the title sponsorship. Without pragmatism here (on both sides), then there is a real potential outcome that initiatives like Catalans, Toulouse, TWP etc get rejected out of hand. But I do think much of this is missing the point, we aren't tackling the root cause, that we have added French teams to the pyramid (and Canadian) , but have had no plans on how we would monetise it. And it still doesn't look like we've addressed that. We need commercial presence in France (and other places) and it can't be left to Catalans to resolve themselves. I've made the point many times, we needed French partnership here, whether that is the current governing body or a new French RL Com and they buy into SL. The Union URC has been brought up, and that is the kind of model, but we are so weak in France and Canada and Wales, that these clubs are all treated as outsiders, guests, rather than a valuable partner.

I was thinking the other day about awesome cities to watch RL, and I think SL has been pretty good in this area. As well as the usual towns and cities, we've seen SL played in Paris, Cardiff, London, Edinburgh, Paris, Barcelona, Wollongong, Newcastle (UK) amongst others. We also had Toulouse in, and had Covid not come along then we'd have had a team in Toronto.

I think that's right. I've seen some outlandish claims about this, Mick Gledhill saying it's the most important thing the sport of RL has ever done being a favourite! I don't think everything needs to be so grand, TWP were never going to change the world of RL, Catalans are not gonna drive us to take over Europe, London are not the most important team in the UK. I think it's OK to enjoy things, and think things can help to move the dial slightly rather than being a silver bullet.

That's fair, you're right about my dismissiveness of your view, so apologies. I do fundamentally disagree, I don't think the pitch confuses anyone, ever tbh.