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I seem to remember him getting better and better as his time went on at Canberra but could be wrong. It seemed to get a bit messy towards the end, so that maybe didn't help with how his time was viewed overall. He's a class act Williams, which definitely seems to be getting forgotten a little at the minute because he's involved in lots of debates of Lewis vs Williams and one is fully fit and flying in a team who are on fire and the other is coming back from a bad injury (which was rushed) and is trying to find his feet, in a side who look way off. It doesn't make him a bad player and when he is on form, there aren't many better in the weekly rounds. One point I've always made about Williams, is that he's yet to really make his mark in a big final and I think he would've loved to have done that before going back to the NRL. In my mind, loads of weight should be put on big performances, in the biggest games and I don't think he's quite nailed that part of his career.

The Aussies are big on player welfare, especially around the time of internationals and World Club challenges, where players needs months off at a time and can't play in them or play too many. I'm just glad they used stunt doubles for the Origin players, who played NRL games 24/48 hours after the Queensland V NSW game last week. We should ask for some tips.

The Wigan match going fan in me says 'No Thursdays' but the armchair watcher of other teams games says bring them on! It's a great night for TV fans of the games.

All jokes aside and I would pick Lewis btw, we can't forget Williams is a class player and he's been excellent in an England shirt under Wane. If we're in a position where a player like that didn't make our 17, we're in healthy shape currently.

I do agree and pretty much looked to see if it backed up my thoughts with the naked eye, that he could do with improving his metre making carries. He certainly comes alive though in the opposition ten and his defence is very good. I'd probably have him in the 24 man squad but not the 17 at the minute.

The only worry I have with Nicholson is that he doesn't make much ground with the ball (looking at our 3 NRL options, his average gain per match was 76 metres, KPP is 111 metres and Bateman is 87 metres. In comparing him to them though, it's worth pointing out Liam Martin is only averaging 78 metres as well). He's great defensively and pops up with a try on a pretty regular basis though and he's still developing, so he's close. As pointed out above, it probably comes down to how he comes back from that injury.

Defo not at his best then He's lost his edge for me. It looked that way in his last season for us in 2022 and when he came back to Wire. He did find something extra in our biggest games in 2022 and was excellent in the Challenge Cup final but outside of that and since then, he doesn't look as competitive as once was. I thought he may find it again back in the NRL but it doesn't look to be the case. If you take that edge away from Bateman, you're left with a small second rower and we're going to need some size. KPP and Nsemba will be in the squad and if we picked 2 more, I would go for Batchelor and one of Gannon or Nicholson. Again, going in to Wanes mind and looking at it with his loyalty, I think the 4 may be Bateman, KPP, Currie and Nsemba.

I've not seen anything of Bateman this year but I believe he's not cracking any pots. I'm absolutely convinced he'll be in though and in probably at the expense of Nsemba starting (I don't think Nsemba will make the 17 for that first test), as was the case in the first Samoa test. I might try and remember to re-visit this but if I had to name the side I think Wane will pick for the first test now, I think it will be something like the below. Mine would be pretty different to that. Welsby Young Newman Farnworth Johnstone Williams Smith Lees Clark Thompson Bateman Pearce-Paul Radley Subs McMeekan Havard Knowles Lewis

All I like to push with Wane is that it isn't 'Wigan bias' that he is, it's 'players who've played well for him' bias, so on that basis Williams does start but don't rule out Daryl Clark being the starting 9 for us in the Ashes. Hand on heart, I actually think he will be because Wane will value his contributions in the past two off seasons against Samoa and Tonga. It's why I also think a guy like Bateman will be a shoe in, as will Lees and Knowles. I think if most people on here named there 17's, those last 4 guys would only be in a few but it will surprise me if they don't line up in that first test (only Clark is a doubt in my mind).

Playing push and shove with JWH (or anyone) isn't what makes somebody tough IMO. O'Neill doesn't run the ball that often anyway (mainly to order I suspect), so I wouldn't read in to anything on that side of things and he was machine like in defence that night (in comfortably his best performance this season), so without going back and seeing if he decided to go hunting for JWH, I can't give too much of an opinion on that. I do know he went hunting for James Fisher-Harris in the WCC and got stuck right in to him and that's an enforcer of a prop forward in his absolute prime, so it'll do for me.

There probably is a universe in truth, which might not be right but there you go. Look back to the challenge cup final and the type of hooker Peters wanted to start the game. He went with the guy who is renowned as being a tough defender, aggressive, leads the defensive line speed and all the effort areas ahead of Litten. The things coaches like Peters and Wane value are pretty similar IMO and I think if both had O'Neill and Litten in a squad, they'd start O'Neill and use Litten off the bench. Now Wane can do that for England but as we know, that then means leaving out Micky Lewis (he just isn't leaving out Williams so no point pretending he might) and there's even less of a universe where we do that.

Oh I agree, the debate is reasonably pointless. It'll be Williams, Smith and Lewis on the bench. If I had to leave one out of the 17 currently, it would be Williams but it's not happening (and as I've said, I'd put him on the bench anyway and wouldn't leave one out). In terms of Harry Smith, I tend to disagree that he's been poor on the whole over the season. He's always frustrated the life out of me in the weekly rounds because he can lose concentration and make errors when the pressure isn't really on but put him in the biggest games and he is absolutely perfect in all the best facets of his game but up until about a month ago, I thought this was his most consistent season so far. He's let himself down in the last few games without a doubt but he's not on his own in the Wigan team on that score. The encouraging thing is that I think of his 3 best performances this season and they were Vegas, HKR away and Good Friday against Saints. The balance to a pairing he'll bring, alongside one of Williams or Lewis, makes him the one who is nailed on for me as things stand.

Tough to prove that either way because the lad doesn't play hooker anymore, much the same as Lewis doesn't. I don't recall him being slow out of dummy half when he played there for us, as a young kid but that was 10/11 years ago, so it's not overly fresh in my mind and I don't see him as a guy who is slow in general or slow off the mark, so not sure why he would be at hooker. He wouldn't lose his power or footwork from there either and he'd have the chance still to use that short kicking game. Throw him in being a much better defender than Lewis and on a solely suitability basis, I don't even think it's close but it's all opinions. I can't help keep going back to the brave call, which is to leave one of Lewis or Williams out of the 17. Who you picking if it came down to that?

It will be that way round but I don't get why you'd think Williams would offer no spark from the bench. This isn't Harry Smith or Marc Sneyd, with no running game. Williams tests the line, has good footwork, is strong as an ox and challenges teams close to the line with an excellent short kicking game. The tough call and possibly the right call is leaving Williams out all together and going with Litten on the bench. I've said that before with Lewis but there is no way we can't have Lewis in the 17 somewhere now.

Basically as things stand in my mind we pick 4 players in the 17 from Lewis, Williams, Smith, O'Neill and Litten. Leaving anyone of those out won't please everyone. I'm probably going Lewis, Smith and O'Neill to start, so that leaves a choice between Williams and Litten on the bench. I'm comfortable with either but would probably go for the extra cover of Williams being able to go in at 6, 7 or 9. I tend to agree with what's been said though, It's be Williams and Smith starting and Lewis will be on the bench. I just think Williams suits that bench role far more than Lewis, if that is what happens.

We'll see. A lot comes down to Haas and Tino and if they're available to the Aussies. If they are, then I tend to agree but if not, I don't think the Aussie pack will be streets ahead. Better? probably but not by a margin that we get blown away, especially at home, with a big crowd behind us.

It suits Williams far more than Lewis because of how defensively strong Williams is and he does have some (limited) history of playing at 9. We could defend with Williams in the middle but if we play Lewis in that role, we will need to start shifting players around in the defensive line because there is no way they're letting Lewis defend against guys like Yeo, Haas (if he plays for Oz), Grant etc.

The best game I've ever seen him have was against Penrith, when he took it to James Fisher-Harris and Moses Leota and it doesn't come much bigger/better than that. His best game this season was away at HKR, when he again seemed to thrive playing against a pack I'd say has been comfortably the best in the league. Your take is the complete opposite of what I see in the lad tbh but each to their own.

O'Neill starts for me or isn't in the team at all. A bit like you mention with Lewis, I think it's a waste of a bench spot because it's just not his game. You want him in there at the start, when the games at it's fastest and toughest through the middle. I couldn't argue with Litten getting a spot ahead of him if it came down to it though. If he did, I'd put Williams on the bench to cover halfback/hooker.

I said previously, he could never be described as a flat track bully and it's because of his performances in games like those (although both were difficult, against teams playing well and it's unfair to call those flat tracks) and even more so in a game like Salford away a few weeks ago. You compare them to his performance in Vegas and at HKR, when he was absolutely brilliant and it's pretty clear he's a big game player. I think back to our last 4 final appearances/wins against HKR, Warrington, Catalans and Huddersfield and pound for pound, across all 4, he's been our most important player IMO. I think he came second in the man of the match voting in all 4. He's also been superb every time he's pulled on an England jersey. He has found more consistency in his week to week game this season but has let himself down a little in the last few weeks. I've not seen many players as consistent in big games though.

I noted that but can't find anything about it either.

International sides are never picked solely on form at the time of the games and rightfully so IMO. I've said previously, I think Lewis has knocked the door down now and deserves a spot in the starting 13 because he's not just played well for a few months, he's been doing it for a couple of years now and looks to be getting better and better. A place alongside Lewis should be between Williams and Smith IMO, with Sneyd and Connor as back up options if somebody goes down. I'd be looking at the balance of the pairing and would go with Lewis and Smith at 6 and 7 if I was picking for a game tomorrow. Harry Smith was having a really good season up until a few weeks ago but he, like the rest of the Wigan side, has gone off the boil but he's proven in the biggest games now and is the complete opposite of a flak track bully (he's pretty ordinary sometimes in lesser games). George Williams would be fighting with Litten for the last bench spot in my side. I'd prefer Williams in that role to Lewis anyway because he's played some hooker before and is defensively excellent.

I think there are some green shoots for Saints at the minute and a real reminder that for clubs like Saints, Wigan, Leeds etc, things can turn very quickly because you just never know what could be waiting to come through the academy and if you get a few good ones making an impact, it only takes a couple of good signings and it's flipped. Obviously Robertson and Whitby look class but Dagnall is now pushing through, as is Stephens. If Saints can sign a good centre and a couple of good forwards for 2026, they'll be right back in the mix IMO.

He's as brave as they come. We always talk about the big guys in terms of which players are the toughest in the league but somebody like O'Brien has to be right up there. You'd have to hope he isn't getting a choice in regards to having an HIA mind.

I feel a bit for Knowles in a way. He's been in England's 17 most games in recent years but as a bench player and his minutes have been limited. I look at him and I think he's an 80 minute player and I've never quite understood why we've put him on the bench in the first place, if he isn't going to get significant minutes. If he did move up to start or he dropped out of the 17, I'd rather have a guy like Walters or Trout on there, who can cover prop and second row.