WN83

The mask had to slip at some point. He’s done a great PR job of trying to prove he’s an improved character and I think even his biggest critic from his chequered past, might have started to fall for it but it could never last. Its a shame really because it loses a few admirers of what he’s done this year, not just for Leigh but in showing the whole game you don’t just need to settle for ‘the norm’.

The sheer amount of incidents they're looking at leads to a natural inconsistency though IMO. To sit there and go through every tackle, of every game, looking for things to punish, means we're seeing so many more incidents being picked up on then they ever have in the past and then every citing/charge has plenty of comparable incidents for people to look back on and call out 'inconsistent'. We'll never have a perfect system but I don't think we could make it much more of a mess than it currently is. In the past it was very rare that a poor challenge would not get put on report at least and it would then be looked at. They could still have a grading system/points system in the background of a model that goes back to looking at only incidents put on report by the match officials. Now each game will be televised in some form, could a 4th official not note down incidents he sees on the monitors as well and we're at least then getting a live perspective, rather than re-running the game with a pen and paper looking for things on replays. That would cut back on the nit picking we see currently.

They'll need to own up to being wrong then or we just continue with this current madness.

Winning as many games as Catalans and Saints but with a better defence and attack. I'm presuming that's what you mean anyway.

The clubs, players, coaches, fans and whoever else need to push for change. If that means cutting roles, so be it because the whole system is broken.

Might blow your mind this pal, but that wasn't the reason we finished top, even if you'd like to think it was.

It feels like they try to apply too many formulas to the incidents already, with gradings and scales of seriousness and that can just take away from simply judging an incident on it's own merits. I don't like the fact they sit down and go through every game looking for things to punish, rather than just looking at incidents the referee's have put on report. Players being cited for serious foul play is fine but the forensic investigations in to each and every tackle needs ending. That would solve many issues straight away and put an onus on refs to pick up incidents during the games. If we then sat a points system in the background of those changes, that would be fine.

I think talk of this reserves farce and also my point about teams being almost punished for finishing top does take away from the main point and that is that the whole system is a total and utter mess and desperately needs ripping up and started again in the off season. Things such as this example around the reserves needs to fall under that review. The forensic examination of every game (well I say every game, I'm sure there is a bigger focus on the TV games), looking at ways in which players can be banned needs to stop. As you say, the naked eye didn't watch that game and think 4 players would be banned on the back of it. It was a tough game but not a dirty game by any stretch.

I can see it both ways but the extreme example would be that the 6th placed side makes the semis and their best player comes back from a one game ban, to play in it but the 1st placed side is missing their best player, simply on the basis they finished top and didn't get an extra game to use it in. It's just a strange anomaly of the play off system I suppose and I very much doubt it will be looked at but it feels a bit wrong.

That's my point though, why should French miss a semi because his team finished 1st but a player with a 1 game ban from the 6th placed team, would be able to play in a semi if his club got there? It's a punishment for finishing top 2. Totally different subject to this ridiculous reserves ruling though and one that would have varying opinions on it. The reserves thing needs binning, whereas I doubt they would ever look at that scenario I mention.

I really hope so. I can't be a hypocrite, I remember Liam Watts benefitting from this before a game against Wigan at Cas and I was fuming. It is an utter shambles and should not be allowed to happen and hopefully such a high profile example like this will now finally get the RFL's backsides in gear.

It is a tricky one no doubt about it but I just think that scenario I mention around Roby/Tomkins and how play off bans could work highlight an issue with the set up, that they could potentially work around with weeks bans, rather than games.

They cannot use a reserve fixture on the same weekend as a first team one and that is why we very rarely see this. We see it on Cup weekends, when teams have been knocked out and when we have mid season internationals. And I know there is no way French or Ellis would play in the reserves fixture by the way (Hill might've done) but Wigan have not applied to use this loophole, it just exists and has done for donkeys years but we rarely see word of it because of the reasons noted in the first paragraph (and because there aren't lots of reserve teams). I'm agreeing it's a joke and needs sorting out as well but in this case Wigan need totally separating from the issue because it's not some sort of loophole they've found, it just simply exists and has done for years.

Enlighten me on what is incorrect in what I've said?

Wigan aren't taking utilising or taking advantage of anything. They haven't put some sort of application in to allow these lads to be available. It's just the rules as things stand, so what are Wigan meant to do, pull them out of a semi final that they're automatically available to play in?

But if you finish top 2, you don't get a game the following week and therefore are at a disadvantage when it comes to bans, over clubs finishing 3rd to 6th. If we look at Saints this weekend, they play a team in Warrington, who are in bad form, missing their best forward and who have a poor record against Saints, so Saints should have a reasonably comfortable day. Say James Roby has picked up a two match ban last week and Sam Tomkins had also picked up a two match ban. Those two legends of the sport are retiring at the end of the season. Catalans finished top 2 but Sam Tomkins 2 game ban finishes his season, whereas the same ban for Roby would allow him to play in the final (if Saints made it), simply because his club finished lower in the table. That just doesn't feel right to me because all the advantages should be stacked for the teams finishing in those top spots.

Other clubs have used it previously and it's a ridiculous situation that needs sorting. I've read people saying this has been around for donkeys years, going back to when we have reserves rugby 30/40+ years ago but obviously this instance stands out like a sore thumb. It happens rarely because clubs would usually have a first team game on the same weekend as a reserves fixture. It needs to be closed off at the end of this season.

The pitfalls of not finishing in the top 2 I guess. It hasn't mattered to Wigan in this case but I saw a very valid point about teams finishing in the top 2 and how when they get one game bans from the games in the last weekly round, their players usually cannot play in the semi final, whereas teams finishing in positions 3-6, who then make it through to the semi final, have their players available. There shouldn't be a downside to finishing in the top 2 and that also needs looking at, just as this ridiculous reserves scenario does. If you finish in the top 2 spots and get a ban in the last weekly round, the first week of the play offs should count towards it, regardless of you having a game or not IMO.

It's a joke of a loophole and should've been closed ages ago. In Wigan's defence, we've not benefited from it before IIRC, unlike plenty of other clubs, so it's an issue that impacts all clubs and it needs sorting. I can't even complain the bans were harsh in the first place. French was plain stupid for touching the ref and Ellis put in a really lazy shoulder, that caught Reynolds high. I didn't notice the Harvie Hill incident.

Is exactly as I see it. Leigh have a number of players, who with all due respect, wouldn’t get in a Wigan, Saints or Catalans side and that means that to have a season as good as this, they’ve needed their better players to really play out of their skins. I think Amone, Lam and Asiata in particular have been absolutely fantastic and everyone has gone with them. Saints have one player in but it’s been a really disjointed season with players coming in and out and others moving positions to accommodate that. Catalans I thought were unlucky not to get Whitley in over Watkins and Keighran over SKD but it’s a matter of opinions. As for Wigan, Wardle had to be an absolute cert, with 25 try contributions and being defensively very good. French another cert wherever you put him and Farrell still statistically out performing any other second rower, via pretty much every metric, although granted he’s not been quite at his own best very often. Miski missed too many games at the start IMO because they do seem to pick on players longevity over a full year. I do agree with the wing picks tbh.

Joke call the Wigan no try and then this, which is a try but they won’t turn it over. Pathetic!!

I was there as well but the details are sketchy. It’s not the kind of day you like to remember too much of in my defence. After having a quick google and looking at the team lists, I would say we have a bit more of a defence for those back to back pastings, than Leeds have for their two. Looking at the Leeds team this past two weeks, there are 3 or 4 really inexperienced players in them, whereas those Wigan sides had 7 or 8. Wigan were also facing two of the best sides in Superleague history, let alone the best in the league at the time. The current Wigan and Catalans teams are good ones by current standards but not a patch on the Leeds and Saints teams in those games in 2005.

Not 2 league games but I still have nightmares about a certain teams 145-0 aggregate defeat, across a league and cup game 18 years back.

His scoring rate is pretty outrageous. The Superleague site shows the average try’s per game for the players at the top and he’s on 1.31 per game, which is way clear of anybody else. I think doing it over the full season counts for a lot when it comes to the dream team and so does being English, so I don’t expect him to get in but it doesn’t really matter.

The beauty of that style for Saints is that it’s what play off rugby is all about. We’ve been excellent this past few weeks but we won’t rack up points against a defence like Saints and it’ll be an arm wrestle (should we meet). When it comes to that type of game, our run of reasonably comfortable results might count against us.