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League Express


C H Calthrop

Member Since 27 Apr 2014
Offline Last Active Today, 01:25 PM

#2995709 RU is far from perfect

Posted by C H Calthrop on Yesterday, 08:29 AM

There have been several initiatives that placed greater importance on scrums and lineouts. There have been a whole raft of initiatives around the areas of the scrum and lineout. 

Marks along with other rules were brought in to punish poor quality kicking.

'Kicking out on the full' is a strange point to make since changes were made with the aim to improve the quality of of the kicking, those rules also result in a greater number of lineouts. 

Yeah but these initiatives aren't really meant to increase  the quantity or the spectacle of the set piece just solve the penalty/practicality related problems again..


Kick out on the full and marks are interesting issues. In a sport that advertises itself as complex and skillful one of its major tools for both attack and defense is to kick the ball straight out into the crowd and as a response to offensive pressure which may legitimately involve skill and flair a player gets to catch the ball and suspend all the attacking teams momentum with a simple word.

#2994056 RU is far from perfect

Posted by C H Calthrop on 12 September 2014 - 03:42 PM

Erm, yes it does. What other definition would you use?


From wikipedia.


"Dead ball is a term in many ball sports in which the ball is deemed temporarily not playable, and no movement may be made with it or the players from their respective positions of significance."

But by definition the PTB is with a playable ball. The ball is not "temporarily not playable".

The "contest" for the ball is not a definer of whether the ball is alive or not.  Is ball use judged by the referee at all times in the PTB, yes it is, the ball is live.

#2993912 RU is far from perfect

Posted by C H Calthrop on 12 September 2014 - 12:05 PM

The stats don't tell the complete picture. A scrum/lineout may go down in the win column but disruption from the opposition competing for the ball means the quality of possession may be poor. The reason that scrums, lineouts, rucks and mauls may look to be uncompetitive is that the team in possession is working damn hard to keep possession. 


Don't quite understand your last point. Are you saying that a team with lots of possession is less likely to score?

The quality of possession in scrums+lineouts facilitates 62% of the tries in union. Possession from both these static events must be the best in the game as all the less able players are out of the way.

The breakdown reveals 50% less opposition players in attendance now than they did in the 1970's. The idea of competition is purely an idea that came about because RU could no longer deride RL on grounds of professionalism.  It is a manufactured concept heavily touted but rather anonymous over the 80 as an outstanding feature.

The IRB illustrate  the more continuous possession the less likely tries come about. 52% of tries in union (6 N 2014) came from 1 ruck/maul or less. 69% 3 R/M or less. 

#2993758 RU is far from perfect

Posted by C H Calthrop on 12 September 2014 - 09:00 AM

This highlights something that I think RL has lost over the years. There's very much a philosophy that teams take it in turns with the ball as opposed to having to earn possession and work to keep it.

You want the stats on the retention levels of scrums? RL shows more incomplete sets of 6 than turnovers in RU. Why? Competition for the ball.  RL never lost the idea of competition it made it more transparent. It is RU with the uncompetitive breakdowns and scrums and lineouts masquerading as 50-50 balls. And the working to keep possession idea in RU. The more possession a team has the less likely they are to score tries so the hard word for retention to only seems produce  the need for changes in the rules. Which is something we found out about in 1895.

#2992351 Incoming Bath signing Sam Burgess will play at centre

Posted by C H Calthrop on 10 September 2014 - 02:26 PM

Bad me, of course he did.


Clearly he set the game on fire making such an impression......

Actually Offiah scored 5 tries in 7 appearances. Given the top try scorer in the Wotsit Union Premiership at the time was Mark Cueto with 13 for the entire season thats a pretty decent result. 

After only 7 games he was in the top 20 try scorers for the season. 9 tries behind Jason Robinsons full season tally.  

In fact Offiahs had the best try scoring stats of the entire season proportional to appearances.

I question you're ability to take notice of Rugby.

#2989712 Rah rah season underway

Posted by C H Calthrop on 07 September 2014 - 08:11 AM

Cracking start to the season, bonus point win and three tries from Goneva.


Three wingers scoring hat-tricks on the opening weekend and lots of tries all around. Boring boring kick and clap!!!

And 30 penalties in the Irish v Harlequins. A performance described as complete dross in the chattering press this morning.

#2987478 Koukash update?

Posted by C H Calthrop on 03 September 2014 - 08:35 AM

I remember Scott Gibbs and Inga Tuigamala making similar comments shortly after they crossed to the handling code as well.

If Koukash is doing one thing right it is getting under the skin of Unionites. ;)

I seem to remember old Scott Gibb saying after his first game of RL the only thing that didn't hurt was his eyelid. The staff at Wigan said about Inga they took 10 ibs off his backside and put it on his chest. 


Koukash does like to speak his mind and frankly the RFL  don't welcome that which is why he needs to do it as often as possible. 

#2987392 Koukash update?

Posted by C H Calthrop on 02 September 2014 - 10:47 PM

Gareth Thomas on playing for the Crusaders; "I recently made 17 carries in one game, I felt it the next morning because as a wing in RU you make 17 carries a season. But I love it".

" I've never trained so much in my life".

"And because the training is tougher than in Union I spend a lot of my time in the pool or eating more food trying to put energy back in me".


Brian Noble on Gareth Thomas (British RU Lion, Welsh RU International) ; " He wants to carry the ball a lot but we are going to have to teach him how to do it".


Gareth Thomas on RL; "in union there is a lot of kicking and set plays going on which seem to take ages to play. Whereas in league if you shut down for a few seconds the players are so talented in recognising you are up or out of the line they put the ball up into the air, into a gap and score. It's 80 minutes of working whereas in Union you can rest and have a look into the crowd  a lot of the time".

#2983625 Incoming Bath signing Sam Burgess will play at centre

Posted by C H Calthrop on 28 August 2014 - 12:04 AM

I suspect it would take him a very long time to master the complexities of playing in the pack in RU. The equivalent pack positions in league are somewhat irrelevant as the scrum in league is entirely a comical emasculated throwback to days when they used to compete for possession.


He may struggle at first without a 10m run up to get up to speed as he has been used to in league. Now that he stepped up to RU he is going to get a lot less time and is going to have to work a hell of a lot harder to make the same kind of impact that he has made in league.


I will watch his transition with interest.

Just out of interest Sam Burgess to date in the 2014 NRL season.

Tackles 731. (That is more than the top 3 Super Rugby players for the 2013 season at 701 tackles combined)

Meters  3571. (That is more than the top 2 Super Rugby players for the 2013 season at 2822 meters combined)

Tries 8. (That would put him joint second in the try scoring list in Super Rugby 2013 season)

Offloads 50 (That would put him second in the offload list in Super Rugby 2013 season)

What were you saying about working harder?

#2983487 Incoming Bath signing Sam Burgess will play at centre

Posted by C H Calthrop on 27 August 2014 - 05:44 PM

The game plan will fit Sam best if he sits in row 5 seat 1, next to the aisle. I am reliably told this is the place you are most likely to get the ball at Barrrrth.


If they play him at centre I hope they issue him with a sun lounger and magazines. Top try scorer for Barrrth 2012/2013 was a winger with 6. 2013/2014 joint top with 4 tries each was an array of blokes inc winger, fullback, centre and Kyle Eastmond.


Still I'm sure he is laughing all the way to the bank.

#2979793 Aus v NZ

Posted by C H Calthrop on 18 August 2014 - 09:48 PM


A common misconception shared by many who post on here. I put it down mostly to tired old prejudices and lack of originality in their trolling.



These were poor games, with an unusual lack of tries compared to previous meetings between these rugby sides. Penalties are awarded for foul play, teams can then choose to take the kick at goal if they wish. With a decent kicker in the side it makes sense to take the 3 points on offer if you think it possible.


Or put down to the huge number of RU fans pre 1995 who watched internationals but couldn't name a club in England.

#2979779 What can we do to increase attendances?

Posted by C H Calthrop on 18 August 2014 - 09:09 PM

1 - I'm pretty sure local people know when the games are on. Making it compelling for them to attend is different to them not knowing about it. 


2 - Removing Rhinos and Warriors from titles will not improve crowds. If people want to call it Leeds v Wigan, they can.


3 - Not sure of point 3. Not sure what you are saying.


4 - Yep, I think there is more we can do with the media, even if it is central marketing overall.


5 - Geting rid of scrums will not boost crowds.


6 - The restructure next year will hopefully address this, although some will still see the first 23 rounds as irrelevant.


7 - Meh.

1- There are a great many local people who are not local people. Liverpool FC shirts in St Helens illustrate this. Huge numbers of local people do not care, attend or find RL of any consequence to their existence.


2- Removing Americanisation is a step forward.


3- RL fans pay for SKY, the same RL fans are those who are in the stadiums. These are fans who pay twice for RL. If you want bigger attendances then you have to preach to the unconverted because the rest of us are already being bled through the nose.


4- Yes, we can brown envelope journalists and papers to reveal RL.


5- Reinstating scrums will not boost crowds.


6- The league needs something. I suggest a trophy larger than the one they get for the GF.


7- This is an idea that would see RL in front of an audience 4x that of any Sky broadcast and hit a key fake tan demographic. RL could be a fashion accessory for young women in the same way international Union is for middle aged women.

#2979686 What can we do to increase attendances?

Posted by C H Calthrop on 18 August 2014 - 06:36 PM

Advertise in the local area. Get people informed to be interested.  


Remove Americanised rubbish from the clubs image, at least officially. Leeds v Wigan has so much more dignity when promoting to the outside world than the Rhinos v Warriors which sounds cheap and gormless and only appeals to audience members of Jeremy Kyle. 


If people are already paying for SKY and they are the same audience you expect to turn up and the clubs are being paid by SKY then there are very serious retail issue asking customers to pay twice. 


Just get the game into the media. If the RFL has to post out a dozen brown envelopes per month just do it. You can bet others do.


No "proper" scrums, they don't work. But the self tap does, reinstate that.


The league has so little kudos, league game after game just becomes a rush to the top 8. Have to add value back to the comp.


RFL to pitch reality show to one of the popular TV channels. Take reality stars from shows like TOWIE and invite them to RL clubs, train them for an appearance in a minor game. Follow the journey, the pain, the heart break, the nose break. Get RL out there on something else than the SLS, Johnny Vegas' short lived chat show and Crimewatch. The RFU are probably already making plans. This is no worse a suggestion than calling Halifax the Blue Sox and that actually happened.

#2978779 Aus v NZ

Posted by C H Calthrop on 17 August 2014 - 03:10 PM

It may have the same advantage line, but that's irrelevant to my point.


RL requires defenders to retreat 10 metres after each tackle, RU does not. Therefore, a player receiving the ball 5 metres back from the play-the-ball/ruck area will be stood further away from the opposing team in RL (15 metres) than in RU (5 metres). Even if the ball carrier and a defender meet each other halfway, the ball carrier will still have covered more ground without being impeded by the opposition in RL than in RU.


If your numbers are based on metres made after the advantage line, you should have indicated as such.

Your point is that the rules of RU make the games content less impressive. That's a good point, well made.

#2978740 Aus v NZ

Posted by C H Calthrop on 17 August 2014 - 01:25 PM

If you're catching the ball 10 to 15 metres away from the opposition, it's inevitable that you're going to have to run further before they can stop you.

Not when the defense has moved up to the advantage line to stop you and the ball is received inside the 10m mark. RU has the same advantage line. 

The carries for both RC games seem to total 340, all 4 teams combined.  That's 88 carries less than the first game of the RLWC, Eng v OZ. 

It's not just meters run but the aspiration to run as well. Just as an indicator of why there is a lack of dynamism in these games.