GIANTSTRIDES

that was a good effort considering the team robbo could put out

I'm just glad hes gone mate, After nearly 4 seasons we are worse than when he came and hes spent a fortune of Mr Dave's money on largely the wrong players, personally i don't think he knows what a good player is, He has always gone for quantity over quality , I hope he gets another job somewhere i'm just happy he isn't with us anymore.

We have a very good record against them away but i wouldn't back us to beat underbank at the moment, still ill be hoping for a win, and hoping that Mr Davy wakes up and smells the coffee soon.

I fully expect Leigh to destroy us and with any luck it will be the end of Mr Watson, I really hope i'm wrong about Leigh destroying us but i would be more than happy to see the back of Mr watson, We are no nearer having a decent side now than when he came to the club and he has spent an awful lot of Mr Davy's money.

With any luck mr Watson will be gone by the end of this season, this is year 4 now and if anyone can see any improvement in our team they must be watching a different side to me. We were ok with his safety style of play for a season but as soon as sides worked it out they simply ran round us. I bet Hkr of Salford sides cost nothing like what Watson has had to spend and yet they both leave us for dead. We still keep playing players who are championship standard in vital positions, can you imagine players getting picked in a Wigan or saints side or any other side because they calm things down can you see hkr dropping Lewis for someone who calms things down , players like Lewis open up defences take on the line and are exciting to watch who wants that, not mr watson

Pretty much agree with this, He would be a good signing for pretty much any club in superleague and i'm happy with it but the truth is it is not our forwards that have disappointed, We have not replaced Levi with anything like a decent player and despite all the raps Watson gives Russel he is one of the players we should be looking to replace, We have lost good forwards through having too many of them and yet I W continues to put everything into the pack, He is on year 4 now of his 5 year plan with yet another crop of new players which seems a strange way to build the successful side he promised. Say what you like about K Davy he is not shy of spending his money , I can think of a few clubs he would have had far more success with , He has shown in the past that he is quite prepared to spend on coaches just as much as players so if the Giants flop again this coming season Mr Watson may not even get to coach Sam Burgess. I pray we have a good season this year cause god knows its time KD got something back for his money, We shall see in the fullness of time

And It's still true today.

You are very probably right and the truth is i am not a stats man. I don't think Bradford have been any better of worse than any other club for importing players, And i don't care anyway. I just want to watch the game as good as it can be, and Bradford were very good to watch. I don't believe for one minute that they will not survive and I'll be happy about that, I do think they will have a struggle with Odsal, and for that reason i don't think they will get to the level say of Wigan and Leeds as a club. That doesn't mean they can't be top on the field again. The point i was trying to make at the time was, That teams who can't get top crowds, are not banned from winning things. If MK is prepared to put in enough money Salford could win as much as anybody, whether they have a crowd or not, So could Fev, So could the Giants, HKR anybody. If you have enough money you can get along with smaller crowds. If or when the Money men stop for whatever reason, then the club will more than likely fold, But they may well have had a great 10 years by then and been a terrific team to watch. I don't see how stopping them being there in the first place helps League at all. Would it have been better to have never had those 10 years because they needed money men to subsidize them, not for me. Nobody can take Bradfords great years away, however it all ended. I know this has gone a bit off your post, sorry about that but it is by way of trying to explain why i may have been seen to be attacking the Bulls, I want the Bulls to survive, and i am pretty sure they will. I think they will have a far better time if they can depart Odsal, but these things are easier said than done, Either way i wish them well.

Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about". Nothing strange about it, I have said our end game is probably the same, I want SL to be the best it can be, It will IMO just take time for it to Get enough top clubs. ________________________________________________________________________________ At that point the strongest 12 will probably be set in stone, I think you can be sure the clubs won't allow Wakefield or Bradford to not be in there. Will Huddersfield be there??? Probably as long as it's a 12 club league and not 10..... I don't know who the SL clubs will ultimately be, I Don't really care as long as they are good to watch, are competitive and are finacially sound, Will Huddersfield be there ? I honestly don't know, If they meet those standards yes , If not then no they wont. Where we will always disagree i think Is that you believe that the clubs will automatically decide, to divide the money up between the 10 best supported clubs at the turnstiles, I dont agree with that at all, IMO ( Maybe wrongly) They game will become more and more about TV. That's not to say fans are not needed, or are not important, But you have to agree that SKY's stake in the game is growing. They are the major income for the game, In years to come it will be the clubs who can deliver who will be the elite, wherever they get their money and players from, and whoever they are. The stronger clubs will be the ones with the extra income from the bigger fan base, and will win most . But whats new.

No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull..... Don't know what this proves, Other than two have money men behind them, the other is Fighting for survival. Two of them play in great modern stadia, the other have a millstone round their neck. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20 Should all go very well this year then ___________________________________________________________________ Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11 I wonder if KD has realised that the last year average of 6.500, is in your real world actually 4.000, and we have donated the rest to a championship side, And with so few professionals between us , It's a miracle we managed to give Wigan a game at all last night. Deary me. _______________________________________________________________________ The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL. All you need now is someone to impliment it, Is it worth me holding my breath. It may well happen some day which would be good, ( not in my day or yours i think ) Till the people who really run the game make it happen, We have to go with what we have, We are going with what we have, Whether you like it or not, I don't really like this new format, It is still happening. ___________________________________________________________________ Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains. We do not need them. Just your opinion, and may be shared by many others, who knows, Reality is we have them, your or my opinion will affect nothing, so once again we are debating a situation that doesn't exist. A while ago you listed what you called the well documented reasons for the fall of the Bulls, I can't be bothered to traul back for the list but it was the Harris thing, the mismanagement, the loss of fans, Odsal etc, All of which made sense to me, If they don't manage to get things right, will that then be the fault of these unwanted money men. I see you ignored my comment on the number of overseas players Bradford have fielded in their great days, despite the wonderfull acadamy they had. Didn't bother me , I just enjoyed watching them. I have been happy to swap words with you but i feel we are just going in circles, I think you don't really have an argument, you have a Dream , and i can see that in time it may well come about and would be good for the game, Until it does it remains a Dream, I truely wish the Bulls well, But i refuse to blame their troubles on anyone else.

Very good point, You can make stats work this way and that, What matters at the end of the day is what is actually happening. Wherever Salford finish this season, they will be a much better side and hopefully good to watch, This has nothing to do with other clubs, it has to do with Salford and their owner. I feel really sorry for the Bulls Fans, None of the misfortune that they are suffering is the fans fault as far as i can see. When they were at the top, they gave us some pain on the field, which is fair enough, and a lot of their fans gave us some pain of it, ( not on this forum i hasten to add ) Nevertheless They lit up SL along with Saints and others in it's early days and i would hazard the odd Groat they will be OK, whether they can ever be as good again remains to be seen, but i wish them well.

Bradford have proved in the past they can pull in 15.000 crowds ! I agree. What's happening ?, Bradford are fighting to survive. The game will go on with or without Bradford, ( hopefully with it ) We could ship in a load of antipodeans ! Whats Happening ?, Loads of antipodeans, And Its worth a mention here that the Bradford team you keep reminding me of , and that i so enjoyed watching, with it's 20.000 crowds could almost have represented NZ, So as you say we could always get in a load of antipodeans. Do you remember the Salford days of Watkins and Fielding , I'm sure you do, I don't remember what the crowds were but i remember them being good to watch, What's happening ?. they have the best side they have had for many many years, Don't care if they only get 5.000, If they are good to watch I'll be happy. Lets just agree to differ. I am talking about what is happening, You are Talking about what could happen in an ideal world. Would you like to take the game back 20 years, to Before SKY and the money men, I know i wouldn't , I admire Wigan as a club immensely but i don't want them to win everything.

Fair enough then , I must have it wrong but i thought the reason for the holding back of money was the penalty for the crime ( so to speak ) rather than the other way round. This being the case why was the money held back?. Not that i agree with it at all., but there must have been a reason. 1 Disappeared faster than a rat up a drainpipe, As opposed to Wigan , Who hit a bad patch and increased their fan numbers,. Still bigger than the Giants true , but then the Giants are doing OK without 15.000 fans. I accept you find it unpalatable that a club with less fans, is at the moment much better, but to be fair you keep talking about reality, If i have twisted any facts , then i apologise, But it seems to me that at the moment the facts are that Bradford are struggling to get the financial power to survive , let alone make a comeback. 2 How would Fartown do. I wouldn't swear to it but IIR correctly Fartowns first ever season in SL was on condition they got no Sky money at all, so maybe that answers your question. For what It's worth i think Bradford are a club well worth keeping alive , They have been as good as anyone to watch when they were at the top, Not just me that feels that way, The RFL have helped them, SLE were prepared to buy them, so they will survive, and I'll be glad, But until Fartown get to the state of Hunslet and others ,i shall watch them. I don't care where they get the Money from, They are better being funded by a rich man and being competitive that being like Hunslet, and when/ If, they go down the pan, If i am still here i will accept it with good grace and be glad of the 60 years i have had. As you appear to have done with your club. Regarding Fans, I don't know what else i can tell you. I have repeated so many times about the desirability of Fans, But you still keep trying to paint this picture that i think they are unnecessary, That is just not true, i would love to have crowds like some clubs have, and i have said that often enough, I just don't believe that they are (the main savior of the game). There are many clubs struggling along with very few fans, but they are still there, There are some SL clubs that are struggling along with not enough fans,(Probably the reason some of them voted for the new format ), But they are still there. Now take away the Sky money for a couple of years , and see what level the game is at then. Back where it was when Sky came along, A one team league, Or at best four. That's it Parky , that's how it is, You and me may not find it ideal , But it's happening, and your dreams about Bradford, and mine about Fartown won't be worth diddly squat without Sky, If Leeds went over to the dark side tomorrow ( God forbid ) and Bradford went bust, Super league would toddle on best it could without them, If Sky folded tomorrow, there would be NO Super league, If you can't see that ,well so be it.

I know that the SKY contract is just to stick a load of RL on telly to sell adverts in between the action. But does that mean it doesn't matter that many of clubs don't have much of a physical audience?? __________________________________________________________________________________ Bit flippant that in view of what it's costing them, Especially as you are celibrating the fact that it's their money that is going to save the Bulls. Physical interest by people in RL means they start to get interested in playing and forming Junior clubs. Why do Wigan have such a strong junior scene if not for the fact they've had 14,000 people interested in the club for what 30 years?? Why is junior RL growing strongly in Leeds? Is it baecause they've had big crowds for 25 years? Does it help to get kids playing and dads organising if the local SL club are a big attractive one? __________________________________________________________________________________________ I have already agreed with you several times about the desirabillity of crowds, Wigan are indeed a great club to use as the benchmark, as are Leeds, and i did mention that Saints ,Wolves, Dragons, and Hull are getting to that standard, Wigan particularly turn out a fair surplus of players, The Giants have benefitted from that, I see nothing wrong with that, these players have to play somewhere. All that said , for one good game between the top clubs on a Friday night on TV i would guess at a figure of around 4 times what the whole rest of the round will attract through the gates, And don't interpret that as being what i want, It's what is happening. If you can't see who's funding the game It's because you choose to pretend otherwise. _____________________________________________________________________________________ I never said any club will struggle without a Money man, I said Bradford, and though It's just my opinion It's at least based on something, Like what it's going to cost to run Odsal ect, I thought the money taken from Bradford, ( which i didn't agree with ) was the result of them getting into their trouble rather than being the cause of it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ My case is RL needs investment into the biggest clubs to attract maximum direct physical interest in the game to them, to in turn grow the local infrastructure of our game. Fartown play Wigan tomorrow, between them they mopped up the three trophies. Leeds and Salford will be busting a gut to change that. I agree (yet again ), but until we reach this utopian position, What do you suggest we do ? Go with what we have, which is what will happen, ( happening ) or do we opt for some hairy fairy notion of telling all the money men ( below the Wolves Saints line ) to clear off unless they are prepared to put their money in Bradford or Wakey. How that would help the game escapes me. It's not generally a good thing to turn investors down because they don't want to put their money in your chosen places, I thought you said something about taking reality pills. _____________________________________________________________________________________ You tell me honestly that there'd be no difference difference between an SL of 12 Wigans/Leeds type clubs against an SL of 12 Fartown/salford type clubs???? What is the point of posing a question like that, We have never had a SL full of teams like Wigan and Leeds etc, Or Fartown and Salford, and It's unlikely we ever shall have. It would be wonderful, but if it ever happens it will because money is going into the clubs IMO. Why it's got so far up your nose that the Dr chose Salford before Bradford i don't know. You now seem to be on the dream that you were condemning some fans for at the start of this thread, People flocking in to grounds in such numbers that we will be able to get rid of these money men who have ruined clubs like Bradford and Wakey. It may not fit your dream ( or mine ) but Sky is the major money power in League now , Did you not notice the frenzy that erupted, when the announcement of the new deal came out. People queuing up to say how it should be divided up. Take another reality pill. And don't worry about Bradford they will be fine unless they go down the same route again. I don't think that will happen, But you never know the Bulls fans were raised on success, The pressure to win things may become too great to bear, hopefully the new team have learned, and who knows the next Dr may be waiting to strike, at Bradford this time.

Well we aren't that far apart in our end game, but you keep on taking what i say i think will happen, as what i want to happen, They are two very different things. I believe somewhere down the line, (maybe after my time and yours ) that Clubs will have to reduce, whether there are mergers or not, but i expect it to have more to do with money and being able to keep standards up than the size of crowds. You know as well as i do that in the real world of League, Sky are funding it, Till they came along Wigan won everything for a decade, the rest were also ran's. The latest deal is reportedly £200.000000, Now you tell me in your honest opinion, Do you really think Sky care what Bradfords ( or anyone elses crowd is ) They are paying that kind of money to sell dishes, not cause they love Rugby league. For that money they want as many as poss sat in front of the telly, with your Direct debit ticking along. Very cynical ? maybe ,but It's what's happening. I agree that the clubs with big crowds will still be the bigger clubs because of the extra revenue, but thats fine they deserve to be. I agree with you about Bradford, If they had a money man and a half decent stadium, they could be right up there with the best, ( they have been ) But at this moment in time they don't have either one , and so unless that changes they will always struggle, The upkeep of the ground alone must be daunting. In the future it will be the clubs who Know how to market themselves, How to get in big paying sponsers, how to make their clubs ,like Wigan or Leeds if you like, And I'm not saying Fartown will be one of them. Wolves and Saints are getting there, Despite being close together. Hull have every chance, Catalan are growing, Big crowds are very desirable, but they are by no means essential, The future will be about getting to the levels of the Aussies, On the field and off it, It will not be easy because of Soccer, But it will either go forward with people like IL or it will go nowhere like it was when Sky came along, Just my opinion , and it may not be what we all want , But it's what Sky want that matters, they more or less own the game now. Regards Salford and the Dr, I don't know how they will go, I hope they go well, They will certainly be better than they were, If they compete well and are good to watch, that will do me, If the Dr pulls out a few years down the track , So what ! they will have had some good years and they can start up again like any other club.