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Everything posted by GIANTSTRIDES

  1. Yes Giants were best on the night which doesn't happen a lot against Wigan and we should have had more points, It's worth mentioning though that although both sides had plenty of first choices out , Fartown had their first choice halves and fullback on the field and we also have some decent looking youngsters Glad to get the points of course and would love to do it again in London but i fancy it will be tougher for both sides . Well done to the Wigan fans that came a long way to watch a depleted team.
  2. Giants played well right enough, but there's such a thing as winning gracefully and without starting to slag off opposition players and it's worth mentioning that Rovers had a fair amount of poor luck. As well as we played we will have to step up from that in the final, Wigan showed what they can do , when you consider they were on the back foot for most of that game it was a great effort to come away with the win, They will certainly be a different proposition to an under strength HKR. All that said i'm delighted we got to the final, I've been to each final we have got too starting with 1953 and a few we didn't get too, we were the underdogs that year as well so you never know ,we do beat Wigan every now and then, ( we shall use this Thursday to practice on them ) I'd love Ken Davy to get a top trophy the man deserves something for all his efforts and money. I thought the Giants were not much behind HKR fanswise but i'm not one to bother overmuch about numbers , we've had poor crowds since the Devery, Valentine days ended but we are still here. Well done to HKR fans they stayed and clapped their team off when they must have felt really disappointed , I thought they were a credit to the club.
  3. Kayakman If the S league clubs don't want you , then you wont last long. I don't know if they do or not but there have been some on here telling you for some time that it will be them that you have to deal with rather than the RFL.
  4. I don't know why everyone has Toronto as relegated, I thought they did ok last night and i believe they will get better plus they will have all their games in Canada to come, It's a bit early to be writing them off for me. On the funding thing i find Dave T's views hard to disagree with , I'm not anti Toronto but i hold the view that there are other S league owners plowing a lot of money into the game besides Toronto and their views count for a lot more than ever gets even mentioned, It's very easy to come on here and call them greedy and short sighted and only wanting whats best for their club when all you are contributing in most cases is the price of a season ticket. Toronto have lost 3 games in S league and already all the posts from their fans have gone from, We will win it all, we will show you how to play the game, we will show you how to run the game , we have so much money we will own the game to It's not a level playing field, they are filching our money, we should have extra this, that or something else. For heavens sake give the club a chance, if things get desperate then do something, it won't be the first time the goalposts have been moved, I don't want to see them fail, we have had far to much failure. In a sort of answer to one of your earlier posts , If you were suddenly to become a Millionaire and wanted to fund Bradford, I would let you into S league immediately, That would result in benefit to every club money wise and if i was pumping money in as some people are, that would probably be important to me.
  5. And yet despite all this misery and unfairness being heaped upon them they still want to be a part of the club, The guy must really like League.
  6. So it's basically a money making venture then, I wish him luck with that. If clubs like Wigan Leeds and the like who have been going well over 100 years cant make money it's difficult to see Toronto doing it with all the added cost that they will have.
  7. The amazing thing to me is, why would Toronto even want to get involved with such a small time sport as League in the first place, Absolutely nothing seems as though it will run smooth, Everyone is hoping it can push the game onward ( including me )but on here it seems to have caused nothing but division, I get the feeling that it's not going to be a lot smoother anywhere else. It's easy enough to come on here and say what needs to be done and what has to be done but i recon there are a few people in the game who are pumping money in besides Toronto, and they might want a say in how things are done.
  8. No i'm sure we haven't met, I was just trying a joke. I wish you and your team the best of luck friend, League needs all the clubs it can get. I would caution against too much boasting and running down of small town clubs over here though, you have to remember that their clubs are just as important to them as yours is to you and i don't think you will have realized the achievements some of them have had and they live with the dream of future success, much like me. I think most fans will be behind your club, they are just hoping it is not at the expense of everything they know, With a bit of luck it may all work out.
  9. It's even harder when your in your Eighties friend, Although it's true what they say It's easier to remember things from way back than yesterday, Who are you by the way ?
  10. Yeah seem to remember it being a Lancashire club, I think it was around the time that shot putter fella gave it a go, forgot his name but i think he played a bit for Oldham.
  11. Does anyone remember A grid iron player coming over and playing in the Sixties sometime, I 'm sure i do but when you get to my age your never quite sure if you've imagined the odd thing.
  12. You can't teach Rugby league skills in a couple of seasons either.
  13. You are very probably right and the truth is i am not a stats man. I don't think Bradford have been any better of worse than any other club for importing players, And i don't care anyway. I just want to watch the game as good as it can be, and Bradford were very good to watch. I don't believe for one minute that they will not survive and I'll be happy about that, I do think they will have a struggle with Odsal, and for that reason i don't think they will get to the level say of Wigan and Leeds as a club. That doesn't mean they can't be top on the field again. The point i was trying to make at the time was, That teams who can't get top crowds, are not banned from winning things. If MK is prepared to put in enough money Salford could win as much as anybody, whether they have a crowd or not, So could Fev, So could the Giants, HKR anybody. If you have enough money you can get along with smaller crowds. If or when the Money men stop for whatever reason, then the club will more than likely fold, But they may well have had a great 10 years by then and been a terrific team to watch. I don't see how stopping them being there in the first place helps League at all. Would it have been better to have never had those 10 years because they needed money men to subsidize them, not for me. Nobody can take Bradfords great years away, however it all ended. I know this has gone a bit off your post, sorry about that but it is by way of trying to explain why i may have been seen to be attacking the Bulls, I want the Bulls to survive, and i am pretty sure they will. I think they will have a far better time if they can depart Odsal, but these things are easier said than done, Either way i wish them well.
  14. Yes I've been happy too, I enjoy a good debate so thanks. If my dream is just that then it is strange that you "see that in time it may well come about". Nothing strange about it, I have said our end game is probably the same, I want SL to be the best it can be, It will IMO just take time for it to Get enough top clubs. ________________________________________________________________________________ At that point the strongest 12 will probably be set in stone, I think you can be sure the clubs won't allow Wakefield or Bradford to not be in there. Will Huddersfield be there??? Probably as long as it's a 12 club league and not 10..... I don't know who the SL clubs will ultimately be, I Don't really care as long as they are good to watch, are competitive and are finacially sound, Will Huddersfield be there ? I honestly don't know, If they meet those standards yes , If not then no they wont. Where we will always disagree i think Is that you believe that the clubs will automatically decide, to divide the money up between the 10 best supported clubs at the turnstiles, I dont agree with that at all, IMO ( Maybe wrongly) They game will become more and more about TV. That's not to say fans are not needed, or are not important, But you have to agree that SKY's stake in the game is growing. They are the major income for the game, In years to come it will be the clubs who can deliver who will be the elite, wherever they get their money and players from, and whoever they are. The stronger clubs will be the ones with the extra income from the bigger fan base, and will win most . But whats new.
  15. No rich man is pumping money into Saints, Bradford and Hull..... Don't know what this proves, Other than two have money men behind them, the other is Fighting for survival. Two of them play in great modern stadia, the other have a millstone round their neck. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Average crowds over 10,000, top class SL professionals 20 Should all go very well this year then ___________________________________________________________________ Rich men are pumping money into Fev, Fartown and Salford Average crowds 4,000, top class SL professionals 11 I wonder if KD has realised that the last year average of 6.500, is in your real world actually 4.000, and we have donated the rest to a championship side, And with so few professionals between us , It's a miracle we managed to give Wigan a game at all last night. Deary me. _______________________________________________________________________ The proposal I make is simple. Put the biggest clubs with the biggest potential in SL. All you need now is someone to impliment it, Is it worth me holding my breath. It may well happen some day which would be good, ( not in my day or yours i think ) Till the people who really run the game make it happen, We have to go with what we have, We are going with what we have, Whether you like it or not, I don't really like this new format, It is still happening. ___________________________________________________________________ Rich men at small clubs merely fund losses to the detriment of clubs who create gains. We do not need them. Just your opinion, and may be shared by many others, who knows, Reality is we have them, your or my opinion will affect nothing, so once again we are debating a situation that doesn't exist. A while ago you listed what you called the well documented reasons for the fall of the Bulls, I can't be bothered to traul back for the list but it was the Harris thing, the mismanagement, the loss of fans, Odsal etc, All of which made sense to me, If they don't manage to get things right, will that then be the fault of these unwanted money men. I see you ignored my comment on the number of overseas players Bradford have fielded in their great days, despite the wonderfull acadamy they had. Didn't bother me , I just enjoyed watching them. I have been happy to swap words with you but i feel we are just going in circles, I think you don't really have an argument, you have a Dream , and i can see that in time it may well come about and would be good for the game, Until it does it remains a Dream, I truely wish the Bulls well, But i refuse to blame their troubles on anyone else.
  16. Very good point, You can make stats work this way and that, What matters at the end of the day is what is actually happening. Wherever Salford finish this season, they will be a much better side and hopefully good to watch, This has nothing to do with other clubs, it has to do with Salford and their owner. I feel really sorry for the Bulls Fans, None of the misfortune that they are suffering is the fans fault as far as i can see. When they were at the top, they gave us some pain on the field, which is fair enough, and a lot of their fans gave us some pain of it, ( not on this forum i hasten to add ) Nevertheless They lit up SL along with Saints and others in it's early days and i would hazard the odd Groat they will be OK, whether they can ever be as good again remains to be seen, but i wish them well.
  17. Bradford have proved in the past they can pull in 15.000 crowds ! I agree. What's happening ?, Bradford are fighting to survive. The game will go on with or without Bradford, ( hopefully with it ) We could ship in a load of antipodeans ! Whats Happening ?, Loads of antipodeans, And Its worth a mention here that the Bradford team you keep reminding me of , and that i so enjoyed watching, with it's 20.000 crowds could almost have represented NZ, So as you say we could always get in a load of antipodeans. Do you remember the Salford days of Watkins and Fielding , I'm sure you do, I don't remember what the crowds were but i remember them being good to watch, What's happening ?. they have the best side they have had for many many years, Don't care if they only get 5.000, If they are good to watch I'll be happy. Lets just agree to differ. I am talking about what is happening, You are Talking about what could happen in an ideal world. Would you like to take the game back 20 years, to Before SKY and the money men, I know i wouldn't , I admire Wigan as a club immensely but i don't want them to win everything.
  18. Fair enough then , I must have it wrong but i thought the reason for the holding back of money was the penalty for the crime ( so to speak ) rather than the other way round. This being the case why was the money held back?. Not that i agree with it at all., but there must have been a reason. 1 Disappeared faster than a rat up a drainpipe, As opposed to Wigan , Who hit a bad patch and increased their fan numbers,. Still bigger than the Giants true , but then the Giants are doing OK without 15.000 fans. I accept you find it unpalatable that a club with less fans, is at the moment much better, but to be fair you keep talking about reality, If i have twisted any facts , then i apologise, But it seems to me that at the moment the facts are that Bradford are struggling to get the financial power to survive , let alone make a comeback. 2 How would Fartown do. I wouldn't swear to it but IIR correctly Fartowns first ever season in SL was on condition they got no Sky money at all, so maybe that answers your question. For what It's worth i think Bradford are a club well worth keeping alive , They have been as good as anyone to watch when they were at the top, Not just me that feels that way, The RFL have helped them, SLE were prepared to buy them, so they will survive, and I'll be glad, But until Fartown get to the state of Hunslet and others ,i shall watch them. I don't care where they get the Money from, They are better being funded by a rich man and being competitive that being like Hunslet, and when/ If, they go down the pan, If i am still here i will accept it with good grace and be glad of the 60 years i have had. As you appear to have done with your club. Regarding Fans, I don't know what else i can tell you. I have repeated so many times about the desirability of Fans, But you still keep trying to paint this picture that i think they are unnecessary, That is just not true, i would love to have crowds like some clubs have, and i have said that often enough, I just don't believe that they are (the main savior of the game). There are many clubs struggling along with very few fans, but they are still there, There are some SL clubs that are struggling along with not enough fans,(Probably the reason some of them voted for the new format ), But they are still there. Now take away the Sky money for a couple of years , and see what level the game is at then. Back where it was when Sky came along, A one team league, Or at best four. That's it Parky , that's how it is, You and me may not find it ideal , But it's happening, and your dreams about Bradford, and mine about Fartown won't be worth diddly squat without Sky, If Leeds went over to the dark side tomorrow ( God forbid ) and Bradford went bust, Super league would toddle on best it could without them, If Sky folded tomorrow, there would be NO Super league, If you can't see that ,well so be it.
  19. I know that the SKY contract is just to stick a load of RL on telly to sell adverts in between the action. But does that mean it doesn't matter that many of clubs don't have much of a physical audience?? __________________________________________________________________________________ Bit flippant that in view of what it's costing them, Especially as you are celibrating the fact that it's their money that is going to save the Bulls. Physical interest by people in RL means they start to get interested in playing and forming Junior clubs. Why do Wigan have such a strong junior scene if not for the fact they've had 14,000 people interested in the club for what 30 years?? Why is junior RL growing strongly in Leeds? Is it baecause they've had big crowds for 25 years? Does it help to get kids playing and dads organising if the local SL club are a big attractive one? __________________________________________________________________________________________ I have already agreed with you several times about the desirabillity of crowds, Wigan are indeed a great club to use as the benchmark, as are Leeds, and i did mention that Saints ,Wolves, Dragons, and Hull are getting to that standard, Wigan particularly turn out a fair surplus of players, The Giants have benefitted from that, I see nothing wrong with that, these players have to play somewhere. All that said , for one good game between the top clubs on a Friday night on TV i would guess at a figure of around 4 times what the whole rest of the round will attract through the gates, And don't interpret that as being what i want, It's what is happening. If you can't see who's funding the game It's because you choose to pretend otherwise. _____________________________________________________________________________________ I never said any club will struggle without a Money man, I said Bradford, and though It's just my opinion It's at least based on something, Like what it's going to cost to run Odsal ect, I thought the money taken from Bradford, ( which i didn't agree with ) was the result of them getting into their trouble rather than being the cause of it. ____________________________________________________________________________________ My case is RL needs investment into the biggest clubs to attract maximum direct physical interest in the game to them, to in turn grow the local infrastructure of our game. Fartown play Wigan tomorrow, between them they mopped up the three trophies. Leeds and Salford will be busting a gut to change that. I agree (yet again ), but until we reach this utopian position, What do you suggest we do ? Go with what we have, which is what will happen, ( happening ) or do we opt for some hairy fairy notion of telling all the money men ( below the Wolves Saints line ) to clear off unless they are prepared to put their money in Bradford or Wakey. How that would help the game escapes me. It's not generally a good thing to turn investors down because they don't want to put their money in your chosen places, I thought you said something about taking reality pills. _____________________________________________________________________________________ You tell me honestly that there'd be no difference difference between an SL of 12 Wigans/Leeds type clubs against an SL of 12 Fartown/salford type clubs???? What is the point of posing a question like that, We have never had a SL full of teams like Wigan and Leeds etc, Or Fartown and Salford, and It's unlikely we ever shall have. It would be wonderful, but if it ever happens it will because money is going into the clubs IMO. Why it's got so far up your nose that the Dr chose Salford before Bradford i don't know. You now seem to be on the dream that you were condemning some fans for at the start of this thread, People flocking in to grounds in such numbers that we will be able to get rid of these money men who have ruined clubs like Bradford and Wakey. It may not fit your dream ( or mine ) but Sky is the major money power in League now , Did you not notice the frenzy that erupted, when the announcement of the new deal came out. People queuing up to say how it should be divided up. Take another reality pill. And don't worry about Bradford they will be fine unless they go down the same route again. I don't think that will happen, But you never know the Bulls fans were raised on success, The pressure to win things may become too great to bear, hopefully the new team have learned, and who knows the next Dr may be waiting to strike, at Bradford this time.
  20. Well we aren't that far apart in our end game, but you keep on taking what i say i think will happen, as what i want to happen, They are two very different things. I believe somewhere down the line, (maybe after my time and yours ) that Clubs will have to reduce, whether there are mergers or not, but i expect it to have more to do with money and being able to keep standards up than the size of crowds. You know as well as i do that in the real world of League, Sky are funding it, Till they came along Wigan won everything for a decade, the rest were also ran's. The latest deal is reportedly £200.000000, Now you tell me in your honest opinion, Do you really think Sky care what Bradfords ( or anyone elses crowd is ) They are paying that kind of money to sell dishes, not cause they love Rugby league. For that money they want as many as poss sat in front of the telly, with your Direct debit ticking along. Very cynical ? maybe ,but It's what's happening. I agree that the clubs with big crowds will still be the bigger clubs because of the extra revenue, but thats fine they deserve to be. I agree with you about Bradford, If they had a money man and a half decent stadium, they could be right up there with the best, ( they have been ) But at this moment in time they don't have either one , and so unless that changes they will always struggle, The upkeep of the ground alone must be daunting. In the future it will be the clubs who Know how to market themselves, How to get in big paying sponsers, how to make their clubs ,like Wigan or Leeds if you like, And I'm not saying Fartown will be one of them. Wolves and Saints are getting there, Despite being close together. Hull have every chance, Catalan are growing, Big crowds are very desirable, but they are by no means essential, The future will be about getting to the levels of the Aussies, On the field and off it, It will not be easy because of Soccer, But it will either go forward with people like IL or it will go nowhere like it was when Sky came along, Just my opinion , and it may not be what we all want , But it's what Sky want that matters, they more or less own the game now. Regards Salford and the Dr, I don't know how they will go, I hope they go well, They will certainly be better than they were, If they compete well and are good to watch, that will do me, If the Dr pulls out a few years down the track , So what ! they will have had some good years and they can start up again like any other club.
  21. Bradford's demise was well documented, they didn't have money man, stretched themselves financially made a big mistake with the Harris saga made a big mistake with the cheap season tickets, the old ground was a millstone and they tipped over the edge. You can paint that as carefree heavy overspending if you want So what's changed, Saying It's well documented cut's nothing, They will be still playing at Odsal, and there is no guarantee the rest wont happen again. as can happen at most clubs. I don't think Bradford " nor do i want them to" will disapear, They have shown their worth in the past, But i don't believe if Hudd's /Fax disapeared tommorrow It would affect the bulls much at all, It wouldn't give them a new ground, ( prob their worst problem ) and when people say they wouldn't go to watch another club, I believe them, I don't feel that way myself, but there you go. I believe eventually there will have to be less clubs, Which those clubs will be I don't know, i have my opinions , but It wont be the ones without any money. The world cup was a great success i agree, So are the 6 nations , Does that mean everyone wants top class Union. And quoting stuff about Soccer is wasted on me, I know nothing about it, other than there seems to be a lot of overseas players. I have never advocated the merger of Wigan and Saints, You and I both know that, You just want to impose one set or your rules for some clubs , but a different set for others, That's not how things tend to work, as in everthing else in life ,The fittest tend to survive, You might not like that , but you won't influence it. When we eventually finish up with the best clubs available in SL ( Whoever they are, including hopefully some expansion clubs ) That will be great, But untill we get there we have to go with what we have, and what we have is 2x12 3x8 It's not what i would have chosen , Or you, But we don't get a say do we, we don't invest millions, We get to put our opinions on here, and on this i suspect we will never agree, so we will have to agree to differ
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