Maximus Decimus

Since Widnes dropped out of Super League, Rugby Unions crowds have gone through the roof. If you want to believe that's coincidence it's up to you. Since I read Ricky Hatton's book he's been battered twice and found out as a Cokehead, coincidence? Again that's up to you. Since Jbd left the board, the number of posts from you has massively increased, coincidence....

Did they? Because if you look at the facts they used to attend in less numbers than they do now for the regular season games despite everything resting on the League table.

It is but it's something that we're going to have to accept. If you have 10,000 ST holders and they aren't included then the only way is down regarding how many of them will turn up.

[monotone]Oh no we might not stand a chance now....[/monotone]

You're living in a dream world. Are you seriously suggesting that 5,000 people in Leeds are more interested in watching them in Super League against the Crusaders than play Wigan in the Challenge Cup? It's all about season tickets and just because it doesn't fit your argument you ignore it. People pay out at the beginning of the season and then it is effectively free to go for around 10,000 fans. When you hit knock out competitions there are 10,000 people who now have to pay. Inevitably there will be people who cannot afford it and choose not to because it's on TV. They also often take people to games. If you're argument made any sense then the Challenge Cup attendances wouldn't have gone up massively when season tickets were allowed but they did. You've also ignored how I pointed out the viewing figures go up by around 33% during the playoffs. You've also ignored how I pointed out that the last time we didn't have a playoffs we had lower crowds than we do now. We didn't have several large crowds that you point out. Even in 1990 the average of the league was lower than it is now. You say we've always attended finals, well the last Premiership was dying and was finally attended by 33,000 at Old Trafford. The first Grand Final got 43,000 just 2 years later, it quickly rose to sell out because people do care. Just because you don't like the playoffs doesn't mean that you are in any way in the majority. Just because you keep repeating it on numerous threads doesn't make it true either. You can't simply ignore the facts.

Hull KR-Wigan (9,007) regular season 2009. Sky 174k Hull KR-Wigan (8,162) first round playoffs 2009. Sky 224k Saints-Wigan regular season 2009 (15,563). Sky 218k Saints-Wigan (13,087) playoff semi-final. Sky 296k. Why are these viewing figures way higher if people aren't supporting the concept? Crowds are lower because take today's Wigan game, they have already sold 10,000 tickets before the regular season game kicks off. Today they are starting from scratch and sad as it is, people don't want to pay.

Are people not in favour of the Challenge Cup? Is that a failed gimmick?

Season tickets are the only reason. The RFL gets the money and it needs to decide whether it wants this money or it wants full stadia for its showpiece events. With ST's I've no doubt we'd have saw sellouts at Hull and Saints, with 18k odd at Wigan. Hudds would have even probably hit 8-9k. Next week we'll see 9k at Wire and probably about 10k at Wigan. It would be a fair bit of revenue lost for the RFL but surely there has to be a solution to the problem?

Whilst I'm not against the club call in principle I think it practise it won't work. I'd be very surprised if the team making the club call did anything other than pick the lowest placed side still in the competition. Saints aren't going to pick Wigan over Wire if that is what the two line ups are. Wigan have just finished top of the league. In the same way they won't pick Wire over Hull KR if they pulled off an upset. It would be great motivation for say Wigan if they were picked and it would come across as cocky. If it didn't come off they would end up looking stupid. The least controversial thing to do is to pick what it would be in the first place.

Poor game this one I'm afraid. Hull KR look too solid for Hull FC who need a new coach a la Michael Maguire. They've got the names they should be better than they are.

The strength of the game is definitely in the south. The 3 northern clubs first home games got 5,000 5,500 and 7,500. This is against the Aviva league average of 12,000. Of course it is bigger and more spread but as far as the Aviva league goes the real interest lies in the south. When you consider that Exeter are new this year and that the 3 Northern clubs are not well supported, it is a fairly regional league. Compared to the amount of press it gets, how many people do you think are genuinely interested in the results of the Aviva Premiership. I would suggest there are a handful of people in the north. League clearly deserves to be in the National press in comparison and it would be if the M62 happened to run through London.

It wasn't a high quality game but it was high in drama. Feel genuinely gutted for the Crusaders.

Why was it a low ebb when we had P&R and a league system for people to get excited by? That was my whole point, you can't attribute all the problems down to one thing and then pick and choose examples. You were pointing out how attendances will be so poor for these playoffs, yet for whatever reason they are much much better than they were the last time we had the Premiership. Anyway I'm fairly sure that the average attendance is higher now than it was in 1990. That certainly wasn't a low ebb for the sport.

I agree, I think last week will have done a lot for their season ticket sales. For getting new fans you can't beat drama and success. Rugby League can provide games that are so intense that you are literally on the edge of your seat for a whole game. From reports the Cru had one last week. Once you've seen that you'll put up with the rubbish games and the big defeats because you know that there'll be times like that again. It's the same for any sport. The problem RL often has is that people will only ever give it one chance and if it doesn't produce an absolute classic then they won't come back. The people of North Wales appear to have given them a real chance and been rewarded for it.

Very impressive and they sound really up for it. Hopefully they can hold on in this next half.

Just to condense this argument. 1997 - last year with the champions decided by the league winners, with P&R and with a Premiership. Total attendance approx 980k. 2009 - Playoff system, no P&R. Total attendance 1.9m.

I did a pretty decent job of defending it I think, take the Jenson Button example. He was the best racing driver last year but in the last 10 or so races he only got in the top 3 twice in a race. This was out of 17 races, that's hardly what I'd call a champion driver, yet a League system allows him to be called the best because he started well. The Premier League is a different kettle of fish and utterly boring anyway, especially when one team runs away with it. Football doesn't suit a Playoffs because of the nature of the game and the likelihood of upsets. Greece won Euro 2004 despite being far from the best side. This wouldn't happen in RL. My point is that you cannot look at crowds as a barometer of interest in these situations, especially one-off crowds or one-off periods. The reasons that play off crowds will not be better is because of season ticket holders, that's the main/only reason. The interest is there. However if you look at the seasons 1990-1997 the average attendance of the league was lower than it is now and by 1996 it was around 6,000. This was all under a league system with full promotion and relegation. Look at the last Premiership final, Wigan vs Saints yet the crowd was only 33,000. 8,000 lower than Widnes and Hull had managed 7 years previous. The whole competition from the quarter finals to the final was only attended by 64,000 people, less than the SL grand final will be. Wigan-Leeds got 6,400, I'm sure it will be a lot more than that tomorrow. The world changes and people don't want as many competitions, look at Football. The Carling Cup is a joke and the FA Cup is nowhere near as prestigious as it once was. So it's safe to say that a Premiership trophy nowadays would be no better. If we'd never switched we'd probably be playing the final at Huddersfield by now. So in essence not only is the league average higher than it was with a league and P&R, but we will have a playoffs system that this year will be watched by a conservative estimate of 170k, an extra 100,000 fans on the Premiership. Everybody always says the standard is poorer. It isn't. The game changes that's all. Clubs have always gone bust and always will. 2 years of licensing isn't going to change that. I'm 27, my name isn't actually Maximus and my second name isn't Decimus. I was around for 1987-1990, but that would be a totally unfair comparison anyway. The same as it would be to ask Warrington fans which period was better. The future and the present is not automatically worse either. The past was great at times but it can't easily be created when the world has changed.

It doesn't necessarily make them worse than Huddersfield because they will have already lost a game to get there. As regards crowning a champion I'd say it's gets it right just as often as a League structure does. My point is that the League system is not as perfect as most would have you believe when it comes to determining who are the best. A team could potentially win the league but lose every game they play against the team that finishes second by 60 odd points. However the team finishing second could have had a bad start to the year and lost a couple of games to make up for it. Which are the better team? A league system proves that they were consistent for longer but does this make them a better side? I would use the Jenson Button win as an example, he built up a sufficient lead at the beginning of the year when other teams were faltering but by the end of it they had ironed out their problems and he wasn't nearly winning races. Does that make him the best racing driver? It clearly deserves rewarding and it should be rewarded more than it is now. But I still much prefer the playoffs for deciding who are the best side in the division. Everybody knows the exact moment that they need to peak for and then they have to play and beat the best sides to be crowned champions. It is still open to the odd result but that's why the teams that finished higher get two bites of the cherry. If Wigan really are the best team in the league then they should be able to beat the sides around them when it matters.

Does the American system not crown a champion from a single game after a selection of knock out games? I honestly don't think it is just about marketing. I always found the league system quite boring and I do now in Football. A team can make a bad start and their season is effectively over. Then you have the situation where one team runs away with it. Bradford comfortably won it in 1997 but it was boring and resulted in a lot of nothing games at the end of the season. No system is perfect, even a league system doesn't necessarily truly define who are the best. It will still come down to individual moments, individual errors and one off games. For instance Wigan topped the league this year but I'm not 100% that they are the best team in the league this year. To be called so they will have to prove it by playing the rest of the teams around them. Not perfect but much more exciting.

You only like hard facts and figures that you can pick. 17k for a Championship decider, this year the Championship decider will get something like 70k at it. What was the Super League average the last year that the league winners were crowned champions and we still had promotion and relegation. What is it now? Also what was the last attendance for the Premiership final between Saints and Wigan?

Talk about selective figures. What were Warrington's attendances when they challenged for the title during the same period? You can't go back to the past because the world is different. We used to have a variety of trophies well supported, now we can barely sustain the Challenge Cup. The premiership would be rubbish. As a sport the league wasn't that important for the vast majority of our history, the Challenge Cup always had far more prominence.

A ludicrous marketing gimmick that most fans are in favour of? The playoffs are way better than the league system. The premiership was an after thought with no credibility. This way we end the season in the best possible way, like the Super Bowl, like the World Cup etc with the two best sides playing in front of 70,000 odd playing. The system is fine and Wendall is being extremely presumptuous in thinking that we will end up with a repeat of the two games. It didn't happen last year and it probably won't happen the vast majority of times we have this system.

Can't help but feel that despite being the team that finished higher in the table, it is Barrow who are disadvantaged by this tie. Admittedly they had it easy against Widnes but they have a 5 day turnaround compared to an 8. It might even it up what with home advantage but in theory it shouldn't be even.

What a bore. The playoffs are far superior to the league system.

19k have been sold which is good but it should have sold out a long time ago. It would have been easily if ST's were included.