Oxford

Although I'll have a go at British cooking a lot of that has to with boiled veg, processed foods and modern attitudes to cooking and foreign food. And a few other things but it's not a lecture. I could also, obviously, make a case for beautiful things british regional that at times seem long gone. However, the most wonderful thing now is how many other cuisines are available without having to travel anywhere.

It's either under seasoned or over it's the British way!

Love squid, even buying it frozen now. Good advice there futty!

I'm sure you've been watching RL for more than five minutes so you can't really think that's how it works.

Is that the new verse to "There's a Hole in My Bucket." Harry ?

Er ...P&R everyone?

Don't talk about me like I'm not here!

Every club has ambition and desire that's another unhelpful myth, Harry.

This is not necessarily an argument for shortening the season. Increase in footprint and crowds is much more to do with selling the event than with the length of season. I do agree though that very often we are reacting to arguments put forward on here that are more about feeings, upsets and preferences than actuality

That's probably a recognition of the fact it might be being considered as worthy of late.

So there it is. There are no fair solutions to an unfair system. The financial gap is not just between but also within the league. Until Leeds, St Helens, Wigan and Hull are all in the mix for P&R solutions won't even be considered, fairer or otherwise, Mind you, if they were, their solution would be to make things even more unequal. To use a political analogy the Party that keeps power in the right hands, ensures their victory in a free and fair election. This is only a parallel idea by way of explanation and other metaphors, similes and pictures are available.

I think the arguments have been about more competitiveness than spectator or footprint growth. That needs other things that require game wide and world wide organisation both of which seem far beyond the game's culture to achieve!

The myth that clubs stop bothering and don't turn up blasted away with evidence, great stuff, Dave.

Part of the problem in too many SL game and not enough trophies. At the moment we could end up playing the same side about 456 times. Basically, even though the same sides end up in finals, the basic inequalities are never seen as the issue and the rules and regulations do little but ensure that continues. When you see the bigger sides an their support as the crucial element their continued success and even lack of failure become the decision making reasoning rather than good of the game as a whole or even growth of the fan base. This is reflected as much in the powers that be as it is in pundits and fans attitudes. Some clubs have injuries some have dramas; Leeds might go down catastrophe lower club might go down "Oh, well" Lower club beats Leeds but all the stories are about Leeds and their problems. Then there's the myth of lower clubs holding the game back which is as hilarious as it is ridiculous. And things like this are common reference point for many of the statements and arguments put forward on here. I would also argue that relegation can be decided so early on that those season over games happen anyway. RL being the game that it is, it is far more likely that the demotion of a club is more likely to be decided by injuries than abilities. And of course the top clubs love relegation because they can recruit from a side that goes down.

So people can be charged again for the same item. A bit like fixtures being over repetitive. I don't believe you wanted an answer to this Deano.

I haven't said anything about play offs. Making relegation essentially more of a lottery. The season is always "alive" except in peoples' heads.

Harry I don't take offence or suspect conspiracies. I didn't and have never said clubs should be locked out. What I did say was that the criteria should be clear for eveyone to get in SL. The should not be arbitary and should reflect SL as it is not the pipe dream they'd like it to be. There is no doubt a draft system would be an effective way forward but I think there legal implications. Putting my SRD hat on I have argued this same thing when they were in the championship. And it is also annoying that local amateurs can't follow a pathway through a Red devils academy and end up at the Wolves. The thing about the RFL is that they're quite likely to look at SL and then make up criteria that exclude a few in order to down size the competition and make the pot have bigger shares for the rest.

The spiral which has some clubs losing players every season and others taking their pick is a symptom of the problem but not the root cause. While people continue to think P&R is the Be all and end all this spiral and ( Incoming Mixed Metaphor) and the yoyo and disaster effects will carry on. It wouldn't seem unlikely that people prefer it that way. If, for example, we weighted the monies towards the upper championship and lower SL this might be balanced slightly. However, you'd still have to counteract the "rewarding mediocrity" argument that is bound to resurface ... yet again. You could also take the top two up and not relegate. If you then made the criteria for moving up clear and transparent, and wrote them in stone everyone would be certain about what's needed and there would be a sensible pathway in place. I admit these are off the top of my head and would need some thought put in and work as well. I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to make things happen in a more sensible way. One thing is always quite clear and that is relegation is only seen as problematic when it's the likes of Leeds or Wigan.

I just took in good humour, you're just not that sort of player. There is a huge difference between failing and being a failure. RL failed because its heart is not really in expansion.

Well Dave ..... "alledged"? Mmmmmmmm! RL has failed to decide what expansion looks like and keep with the idea for as long as it takes. That to these old eyes is not a failure of expansion but a failure of its alleged perpetrators. You above all have pointed at the resposibilty for this failure and where it lies. Aligning me with Stephen Jones well, well, well. Would you like to thow in the Vichies for good measure?

Where has P&R proven to equalise competition? Where has P&R proven it's good for the health of clubs? Now this to me is one of those ideas that turns up again and again without proof. I talked about ensuring that it is compeitive and that P&R most often ensures that it isn't. Losing is a cosy world for no one.

Me too. Which bring me to the main point of why P&R is useless. The inequalities from those clubs (usual suspects) who manage to line their trophy cabinets with assumed and totally expected regularity and the rest are too great. Which means it's another group of reprobates who fight for survival. If you want people to turn up in numbers sport needs surprises and competitiveness for the whole season. P&R is a means of achieving this picture year on year becuase there is little way out for those at the bottom, because of this even dyed in the wool (love that phrase!) TGG fans have been turned off . If we never address those inequalities and ensure competitive matches throughout the season we never will progress. This can't be done with eternal instability and panic or P&R.

I try to not make it about SRD when talking about relegation but it's bound to colour your judgement at times. Mind you on this very forum, even when Salford have earned the right to stay in SL, it has been argued that they should be in the Championship. I have a lot of time for Fev and Leigh and would love to see them in SL ( even though Fev is the only palce I've been in a fans coach being attacked). Fev have often said when they didn't feel the time was right for them to be promoted and they obviously feel that the time has come. Both Leigh and Fev worry me with the amount they're spending at present. Chasing the dream can be as seducutive as it is destructive.

I reckon we've skirted around the real issue for far too long so here goes. Expansion hasn't failed .... Rugby League has.

Sorted and added to subscriptions and in the words of Eddie (Cochran not him with Stevo ) "Come on everybody ...."