DC77
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George Hotel Museum not going ahead (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to Tommygilf's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
Listening to Tony Collins (who I believe is involved in this project) they have learned from other museums. redjohns’ mobile idea sounds like a good one. You would get more visitors I’d imagine. Get the feeling that nowadays people can’t be @rsed traipsing miles to somewhere for the like of this. -
I’m afraid he’s making it up as he goes along. First it was “Mancs have county cricket”, when Lancashire county cricket included Liverpool who were part of Lancashire. Then it was “Manchester has RL teams”, when it’s Greater Manchester that has RL teams just as Merseyside has a RL team. Basic history/geography, especially to anyone from the region. And if Mancs have this greater interest in RL, why is their 2021 RL thread less than 1 page (total 24 comments) while the equivalent 2021 RL thread on RAWK (LFC) is 4 pages? And Geordies? No thread at all... zilch, nada, goose egg. Scousers have the greatest number of posts, on RL, in their busiest football forum. Four pages (while the most) isn’t much at all. For comparison sake the 2021 cricket thread on RAWK, 269 pages....scousers have no interest in cricket apparently. “Ahh but that number must be solely down to foreigners as LFC have a global fanbase” (which still wouldn’t counter why RAWK has more RL comments than the Manc and Geordie forums). The interest in RL across all three groups is small, as I said from the get go, but the casual interest in sports other than football is significant across all three. Back to the original point, no region is shut off. Make something appealing enough and it will attract new interest. If you look at stuff that goes viral, across all sports, more often than not it’s eye catching plays. Without question there are infinitely less of them in RU than there used to be, hence no household RU player today, and I’d say it’s almost certainly the same for RL, and it also doesn’t have a household name today. The increase in size, the increase in power, the lack of wide open spaces like before, no individual can excell like an attacking player once did which made them star. The coverage has increased, yet fewer kids could name a RL player today (outside the heartlands, i don’t think they could name any) https://www.theguardian.com/sport/no-helmets-required/2017/may/16/rugby-league-players-bbc-coverage-tv Mark Evans on the Tony Collins podcast (12:30 onward) talks about the change in physique (he thinks RU will have radical rule changes, and also go down to 13 players). He mentions smaller players from both are still around (Shane Williams in RU, Reagan Grace in RL), but there are far fewer of them now, and the like of them don’t weigh 11 stone like many once did neither. The gist of it is, the collision codes have to change the rules, in order to stay the same (that’s maintain the basic elements of the game). The problem for both is while players have got bigger, stronger, faster, it’s also dramatically changed the look of both (more so RU, but that’s academic). It’s made them harder, more attritional. So if no individual can stand out now anywhere close like before, who is there for casual observers to get interested in?
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Deluded. Also note you cut out the part that refuted your comment about what sports are played where. It’s never going to change (in all likelihood), likewise for Manchester and Newcastle. However, most people who follow football are also casual viewers of other sports, and it’s those that should be targeted. Go on the busiest forum of Liverpool FC (Rawk), Man Utd (Redcafe) and Newcastle (NUFC) and look at the other sport (general) sections, you will see a plethora of other sports being debated. The threads on US sports are substantial (large number of fans of the three clubs from North America use the forums), while cricket, boxing, F1, tennis (during a slam), golf (during Ryder Up/major) get significant comments/views. To a lesser extent RU also garners some interest, and then to a lesser extent there’s RL, the latter of which generates most interest in the Liverpool forum (one thread made up of four pages), the Man U one has one page in its thread, while Newcastle doesn’t have any RL thread. The interest in RL is small among the three places (as it is with RU really), which harps back to the point I’ve been making about both codes becoming more attritional, more physical, more defensively orientated/structured, providing less of a platform for individuals to make eye catching attacking plays and really stand out (thus becoming household names and generating clicks/interest) as Offiah, Hanley Robinson, Tuigamala were afforded previously. Being a much tougher, more restrictive game for attacking players has resulted in there being no star (ie. household name) in either code today so there’s no-one to talk about or pull in the casual viewer.
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Greater Manchester (Salford) has Old Trafford as it dates from the mid 19th century when it was in Lancashire, a county (represented by Lancashire county cricket club) that included Liverpool and Manchester before the recent modern boundaries came into force. This venue was also there before (association) football was even a thing. Sale, Salford, Swinton, these are all Greater Manchester. The equivalent for Liverpool (Merseyside) has St Helens. RU in Newcastle (which only got off the ground after being bankrolled by John Hall) caters to the middle classes of the NE. Radio Merseyside has one hour of Rugby League per week, straight after the football. Does Radio North East? The Cricket thread (especially for the Ashes) is busy on Liverpool message boards (which I use a lot). The NFL thread is also busy. Ryder Cup thread for golf was a hive of activity, likewise any tennis slam. Its a complete myth that “scousers are only interested in football”. It dominates the sports scene yes, but no more than it does with Mancs and Geordies.
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The streets were flooded with kids playing in the 90s and early 2000s, the era I grew up in. It was constant noise. Those same streets are now largely empty, and It’s got nowt to do with cars. The size issue is a problem for the rugby codes as any sport where power can be such a determining factor in success means there will be no let up in “bigger, faster, stronger”, ultimately transforming the game further away from what it was. With weightier collisions it also makes it more dangerous. Can’t see anyway back for RU unless they radically change the game (speed it up, and remove mass changes, factors that would require players to have greater endurance, forcing them to trim down and look more human). RL the players still largely look normal, although they are in much better shape which makes it a tougher game for attackers to excell in, hence clubs have scoring records that date to East German records in athletics.
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They are no more obsessed than Geordies or Mancs. Both are every bit as football obsessed as scousers and the cities are dominated by the football clubs. However no populous is 100% one (team) sport. This would mean literally one sport, and that’s it, and when another one comes on (regardless of what it is) the channel is switched over. A significant number who follow a sport are casual viewers to others. Big events such as the Ashes (which dragged in Arsene Wenger who had never seen cricket), Five/Six Nations, these pull in casual viewers. Its casual viewers that a sport also needs to appeal to.
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I have lived in Liverpool (went to University), been in students union bars etc. Like many other football dominated places such as Newcastle and Manchester, football is king, but as I say, you rarely restrict yourself to one sport (team sport in this case). When I say follow, I’m not saying they would have anywhere near the same devotion to another sport (If Sky lost rights to football they would ditch Sky, as I would, as would RL devotees with RL), however you would still watch another sport that appeals if it’s on TV, or possibly even go to a big event. When RU was appealing to watch it got significant ratings for the Five/Six Nations, pulling in casual viewers. With its decline as a spectacle ratings now would be more confined to RU diehards ie. people that put RU above all else and would watch anything related to the sport.
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I don’t agree with this. Most people who follow sport don’t only follow one sport. Football is my main sport, just as most others have a main sport, but you rarely restrict yourself to just one. As much as I appreciated the sublime skill of a Zidane, there’s an enjoyable contrast with a Lomu rampaging through an opposition defence bowling them over like skittles. “The Liverpool”...always loved how some Europeans referred to the club in this way (mainly Italians if I’m not mistaken). And just on Salah, he recently became the fastest Liverpool player to score 100 top flight goals, surpassing Roger Hunt from the 1960s. Could a Wigan player break the record (or get anywhere close) of a much more recent player (Offiah) for 100 tries for Wigan? Point is the platform that was afforded to Hunt is afforded to Salah, the same doesn’t apply to the like of a Makinson. Look at the St Helens scoring records, all from years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Helens_R.F.C.#Player_records Its the equivalent to those East German records that still stand in athletics. You shouldn’t be making the game harder, and that’s ultimately the major issue for both rugby codes.
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“playing any sport bar basketball on concrete is not fun“ Eh? Street football is played on concrete...Wayne Rooney is one such product. It was easily the surface I played football on most on growing up (home and at school). Besides those two, another popular sport on concrete is rounders (baseball) although it doesn’t have the same mass appeal in terms of gameplay. Swinging a bat is fun, but you are still somewhat limited in what you can do in comparison to having a ball at your feet or in your hands. On the drop in outdoor activity, it’s much more recent than the advent of cars. It’s over the last couple of decades that the change has been ramped up, sparked by the use of hand held gadgets. The change in physique in RU I wouldn’t put down to Pacific Islanders (although they do play a role). Clive Woodward’s England basically won the RUWC playing 10 man rugby (mammoth pack, and the boot of Wilkinson). France have always had better back players, but when you can bypass back players to win they become redundant. France were getting crushed by bigger teams, as were Wales, so in order to compete with the like of England they have had to join them, beef up, become attritional, and unwatchable. The transformation can be summed up in one change in the France midfield, from Phillippe Sella, 12-13 stone of skill, to Bastereaud, 18 stone of brute force. Unlike France and Wales the Aussies to their credit still try to play a more attacking game which, to their cost in the now war of attrition dominated game of RU, has made them far less competitive. Wayne Bennett made England more competitive, and far less watchable. Shaun Wane did similar with Wigan. There’s a lot of cross pollination between the two codes (RL defensive coaches flooding both), and with players getting bigger, faster, stronger, it makes it more difficult for the same attacking play as before. This has contrasted with both basketball and football where attacking play has actually got easier and as a result you see records get broken (in the case of football, Messi breaking Pele’s scoring record for a club, Ronaldo breaking the international goalscoring record, Salah breaking the single season Premier League goalscoring record etc.)...records aided by better playing surfaces than the past, more protection from referees than than the past, laws like the back pass rule being removed so the gk cant just pick the ball up, and whereas in the rugby codes players have got bigger (making the obstacle bigger) the main change to footballers is they are quicker/more athletic, meaning they are at it for the full 90 minutes, and also have longer careers. In basketball you see similar advances that aid attacking players with records being broken by Steph Curry, Lebron James etc. A Jonah Lomu, the last RU superstar, scoring four tries at will vs England would never happen today, he’d run into James Haskell and co., fuelled by whey protein shakes, and get shut down. The prolific try scoring of Offiah, that couldn’t happen today, nor the runs of Hanley through the middle of the field. Those same gaping holes in defence aren’t there. It’s more regimented, structured, tighter, bigger obstacles, the wrestle, slower PTB, just much harder for individuals to shine. Ultimately it’s the on field product that is the best advertiser for a game. Get that right, and allow attacking individuals to stand out and become known (or even a household name) in the process, and you will attract new viewers.
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That’s true. Anecdotal yes, but I regularly cycle a few miles my area and pass a number of housing estates and the silence is deafening. Those streets used to filled with noise with kids playing. In addition to being less active (from what I gather anyway), society is much more conscious about safety when it comes to playing sports, with much greater scrutiny on collision based sports. I’ve largely ditched RU as physically players now look like transformers (to steal another quote from Jonathan Liew), and no longer resemble humans (“80% neck”). The flair (and there wasn’t that much previously) has largely gone. It’s dominated by mammoth sized blokes colliding, and now there are court cases galore. It’s baffling that the physicality/danger has increased, just as society has become more safety conscious. And these are supposedly intelligent people running the game. Bonkers. I will hold on to my memories of Brian O’Driscoll (especially the early years before the size really took off) as it’s unlikely that form of RU will be seen again. The result of this transformation of RU is it has never had a lower profile than it does now, with not a solitary household name in the UK. Stars cannot emerge as physically it’s too stifling for attacking play. Each RUWC passes and not a single individual emerges, they can’t. RL has an opportunity to fill this increasing void left by RU’s self inflicted demise by going back to playing a more open attacking game. There’s nothing as appealing in rugby than seeing a slick attacking sequence (dummies, long runs...a Rob Burrow in the grand final)...have plenty more of that, and less of the more attritional stuff, and RL will advertise itself and thrive.
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As Tony Collins says in his podcast, a sport that gets in there first is a major factor for catching on in an area. While that is undoubtedly true, where I disagree with him is him not seeing the different appeal of each sport that also makes it catch on...fact is sports are different. Some are just more appealing than others. It’s not merely by chance that football and basketball are the two biggest team sports on the planet, or that tennis and golf are the two biggest individual sports. Regardless of where you are from or who you support, chances are you have access to playing both football and basketball, whether that’s in your own garden (football net), side of house/garage (basketball hoop), or the local playing field/court, or school, or sports club etc. The reason they are the most accessible to play is due to their gameplay. The inherent advantages being able to express yourself/manipulate the ball with it being round (execute tricks, flicks etc.), the satisfaction of shooting into a net, and then there’s finishing the game in one piece. I played basketball as a kid despite having never seen an actual game on tv until I was 17 (and that was the only time I watched it) so you don’t need to be brought in up a basketball (or football) household to play it. Very few who aren’t from the heartlands (or have no family connection) of a collision based sport will pick it up as such gameplay is an acquired taste. It’s footage of skills that predominantly go viral not hits, hence Messi, Federer, Jordan and co. are the megastars and millions try to emulate their plays. Ultimately any collision based sport will always play second fiddle to one that isn’t. It’s for this reason that the rugby codes need to revert back to a more open, attacking era as they are too geared towards the attritional stuff. A Rangi Chase type dominated game would see RL soar as that kind of expression is what is most appealing (if I had a rugby ball I’d have been practicing that move he pulled off).
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And Newcastle. I remember when the great J.Wilkinson was at Newcastle Falcons and it was as though he was out in the wilderness while his England teammates were playing in RU heartlands for Wasps, Saracens, Leicester and co. And the Falcons had millions pumped into them but there wasn’t any Melbourne Storm type effect.
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But Liverpool FC could fill a stadium in Australia that no NRL team could. A lot of it is down to the quality.
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Two reasons I don’t get anyone hoping another sport has less followers/viewers. 1.its sad. 2.it ain’t going to impact your own chosen sport. I don’t know if it’s just a RL thing (I’ve mainly been around football (and there’s none of it there) so can’t speak about other sports), but it serves no purpose. You might get comments like egg chasers or toffs game, but never come across anyone who’d actively want to see less follow them. If RL struggles to grab attention the focus/envy shouldn’t be on a sport that gets most (or even the other rugby code RU which doesn’t get much either), the focus should be on what can be done to make RL more appealing. Wigan vs Leeds, 7k for a playoff game. That’s where the focus should be. What changes can be done to entice more to watch the game.
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Never seen him look so nervous as in that last game she had. One of the best results for anyone. Her second event, plays ten rounds and doesn’t lose a set to win the whole thing. It’s unprecedented. Can’t ever recall a career go from zero to 100 in a matter of weeks. She has won a slam and has yet to feature in the main draw. It was also the manner in which she won it. It was unflappable dominance throughout. Way before my time but Pele winning the World Cup as a 17 year old and scoring twice in the final is another quick-fire humongous success that springs to mind. Olga Korbut as a 17 year old winning the floor event at the Olympics and redefining gymnastics is possibly another (tho gymnastics is a very young people’s event, so not really that out of the ordinary for her age). Her display is the result of being in a sport that has given women a fair chance...
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Never seen a year like it. Bowie and Rickman inside 4 days. The walking, talking miracle that is Keef. Docs have long since given up trying to work him out. His obituary has been sitting on the shelves for a good half century. Didn’t he fall from a coconut tree a few years back?
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Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
“Virus riddled” is what Aussies are thinking, and for a largely unvaccinated Aussie populous that’s dangerous. Our situation is much better than theirs due to the vaccine roll out, but without vaccinations it would be a different story. The Aussies are now where we were March/April/May of last year. I get this insular thinking (the RLWC must happen this year, the Aussies are jeopardising it). I was exactly like this in regards to the Premier League shutting down with Liverpool 25 points clear and only a 10 games left (maximum 30 available). My thought process was dominated by Liverpool missing out on a league title. But many people were dying. It was hard to park any thoughts of the league, and I don’t think I did. Had I been impacted directly (family member for example) that would have very quickly made me see sense. -
Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
The Kiwis cannot return home to NZ. It makes no sense to then say okay but you can travel 10k miles across the world. The Aussies have been very consistent with this. To ignore what is happening in Australia and only focus on what you think should happen is insular thinking. -
Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
They are under the NRL umbrella though. I had a look on Wikipedia and counted nine Aus based PNG players (most in the lower league), half the squad. On a side note looking at their squad I was surprised that a team made up of quite a few lower league players were able to beat GB quite recently. Basically anyone who plays in Aus, their participation in the RlWC was compromised due to the measures Australia as a nation are taking towards this pandemic. Had they been where we are then yeah, the virus would have been a non issue with regard to playing. They aren’t though, the Kiwis not being able to get back to NZ before Christmas just an example of that. If they cannot get back home to NZ it’s a tad cheeky to expect them to travel halfway around the world. A town gets 100 cases in Aus they go berserk, here we have towns with 5k cases and everything is open. With the vaccine roll out here it’s a very different situation to Aus. -
Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
Aussies and Kiwis who play for Aus and NZ is the same thing as the other Aussie and Kiwi born NRL based players who play for other nations. The NRL.com fella outlined this as being the major reason for their reluctance to go. With RU (wallabies) it’s just one group of players, likewise the Aussie Olympians all under the roof of one building, whereas with RL it’s a group of players who represent most (if not all?) the 16 teams in the competition who would be spread out and sharing facilities with the general public. Such a spread out group cannot be contained. In Australia they are taking such drastic measures that NZ players are stuck in Aus until Christmas. Take the little Englander approach if you want, the Aussies ain’t bowing down to anyone. -
Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
The more I hear from the Aussie side on this (the last being the BBC podcast from 5 August which I heard yesterday) the more the English response reeks of the insular “little Englander”. The NZ players from the NRL have been stuck in Aus and cannot get back to NZ before Christmas. And yet we have folk here, including esteemed folk on Forty20, claiming the virus is just an excuse for the Aussies/Kiwis not travelling 10,000 miles to a virus riddled island and that there is an ulterior motive. The BBC presenter, after hammering the Aussies in multiple BBC podcasts, finally gave the Aussies a brief consideration after hearing about the extreme situation in Aus from the NRL.com fella. How gracious of him. I get now why Vlandys responded in the way he did (not a colonial outpost, we are a sovereign nation). -
Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
An Aussie, saying better quality in the NH, will get Aussies excited about watching international RL. ....and yet there’s some on here (in fantasy land) who think the opposite. That a stronger England, and a challenge to Aussie dominance, will see Aussies have even less interest. The Aussie has spoken folks. Also agree with the stars point. From what I’ve seen Schofield was a maverick of a player. I enjoy listening to him partly for this reason. He also detested the stifling style of Wayne Bennett with England and demanded a return to their open running style of old. That ankle tap on Grace game you mention, that was an 80 minute arm wrestle. This point about the lack of eye catching players I’ve touched on previously, and put it down to the more defensive nature of the game today. RU certainly has killed almost all creativity with the field now overcrowded with mammoth players. RL hasn’t gone as far down this attritional path, but it’s not as open or swashbuckling as previous. Stars are vital for the growth of any sport. With Messi leaving Barcelona one commentator today called him a “tourist attraction” in that wherever he plays next (possibly Paris) people will travel from everywhere to that location just to see him in the flesh. Not that I’m comparing a RL player (or a player in any sport) to Messi as his status is on another level but RL (certainly in England) doesn’t have one player that is a draw, that would make a non RL devotee, or an Aussie, or dare I say it even a RL devotee, tune in to watch him and his team. I remember being glued to the screen when Ronaldo (Brazilian) played for Barcelona, likewise Lomu with NZ...every time they got the ball they lit up the place. With this RLWC being postponed, there wasn’t any star/household name for the media to grab hold of for a response, so there wasn’t much noise about it. -
Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
You could only class them as insular if it was across the board, but it isn’t. It’s solely restricted to RL that they don’t look outside their shores. If for example Super League was a billion pound league, with Anfield, Old Trafford, Emirates etc. as RL grounds, and a couple of million in England were playing the sport as opposed to the 44k figure Sport England put out, I think we can be pretty sure the Aussies would be looking up here, a lot. Most of the best Aussie players would be playing over here too as opposed to coming over for a few weeks at the end of their career. The Aussies would be salivating at the prospect of all this, as it would raise the game even more in Australia knowing there was another big player in town. The tv companies would be building games up much like they do with the Ashes, much like they once did with the Bledisloe Cup. English rugby league (the only other pro league outside Aus) just isn’t a big enough player to turn heads in Aus, and until that changes (which Toronto may have provided a decent first step) they will continue to look towards their own league. NZ RL really is an extension of Aussie RL (especially having a club in it) so them winning the odd game will not cause much of a ripple in Aus. NZ RL in some ways is akin to Welsh football in that both have a pro team(s) in their next door neighbours league (NZ Warriors in Aus, Swansea/Cardiff City in Eng). If NZ RL was the size/standard of the all blacks, with their own top league, income, sizeable playing pool etc. that would be a different story. They be seen as genuine challengers to Aussie supremacy. They would also have won more than one RLWC in half a century that’s for sure. -
Rugby League World Cup 2021 (Merged Threads)
DC77 replied to frank's topic in The General Rugby League Forum
I’m coming from a more neutral perspective as an outsider with no foot in either camp, so I’m not taking sides here. The international game not offering loads (or any?) money is tied into the reason the Aussies have pulled out of the RLWC. I believe they are genuine with their concern over covid (their lockdown in Australia would back this up) and that there is no ulterior motive, but at the same time had the international game been lucrative, meaning the Aussies (and all the NRL players they send out to the other teams) could receive no expense spared top notch facilities, travel, hotels etc, they’d currently be planning to play in the tournament. The fella from NRL.com on the BBC podcast spoke about players having to share facilities with the public. This is in contrast to their other sports teams including the Olympians. The 4 minutes notice I agree was shabby. Dutton has been a class act (even going as far as to apologise for the tournament not happening) so the Aussies could learn a thing or two about decorum. Not sure I agree with withdrawing earlier as the covid situation in Oz changed. Look at the Olympics, spectators were only prevented from attending a matter of weeks before the games, so nobody can really plan too far ahead. The Premier League kicks off this weekend, full stadiums, I’m wondering for how long for. We are at the mercy of this virus.