18 replies to this topic

[Wendall]

Do the good people of the TRL message board believe we have a good, healthy competiton in SL?

Last weekend if you watched Sky Sports two games you would have thought we were the greatest sporting league on the planet.

Four top teams, great intense games (for the neutral ), great atmospheres in the stadiums, packed out crowds etc I could go on.....

But outside of those top 4 sides, there are only a handful of clubs that are doing positive things (Catalans seem okay for now despite a horror season, Hull maybe crowds wise and Hudds in patches).

There seems to be a big gap between the haves and have nots in our game and I feel that the salary cap is still not working well enough and that these clubs are struggling to make ends meet and advance in crowd terms.

Our traditonal clubs like Cas and Wakey and Bradford are all in a slump, playing in dated grounds, dropping crowds and struggling to hang on to their best players. When was the last time any of these clubs signed a top player from the big four? Nothing promising seems likely in the near future for these teams.

Then we have our expansion clubs, Quins who are struggling badly with investment, crowds and putting a decent team on the park. Crusaders too are punching above their weight this year but questions remain over whether they are viable long term?

Even over the next franchise period 2012-2015 I cant see many of these 'lower clubs' improving apart from maybe Salford if the new ground is ready by then!

The only bright light is a revitalised Widnes Vikings coming into SL in 2012 and the additon of a 2nd French side Toulouse perhaps.

I think unless we are careful and make some hard decisions regarding who is included in the SL in the next franchise round, SL could be an even more divided competition.

[DemonUK]

Do the good people of the TRL message board believe we have a good, healthy competiton in SL?

Last weekend if you watched Sky Sports two games you would have thought we were the greatest sporting league on the planet.

Four top teams, great intense games (for the neutral ), great atmospheres in the stadiums, packed out crowds etc I could go on.....

But outside of those top 4 sides, there are only a handful of clubs that are doing positive things (Catalans seem okay for now despite a horror season, Hull maybe crowds wise and Hudds in patches).

There seems to be a big gap between the haves and have nots in our game and I feel that the salary cap is still not working well enough and that these clubs are struggling to make ends meet and advance in crowd terms.

Our traditonal clubs like Cas and Wakey and Bradford are all in a slump, playing in dated grounds, dropping crowds and struggling to hang on to their best players. When was the last time any of these clubs signed a top player from the big four? Nothing promising seems likely in the near future for these teams.

Then we have our expansion clubs, Quins who are struggling badly with investment, crowds and putting a decent team on the park. Crusaders too are punching above their weight this year but questions remain over whether they are viable long term?

Even over the next franchise period 2012-2015 I cant see many of these 'lower clubs' improving apart from maybe Salford if the new ground is ready by then!

The only bright light is a revitalised Widnes Vikings coming into SL in 2012 and the additon of a 2nd French side Toulouse perhaps.

I think unless we are careful and make some hard decisions regarding who is included in the SL in the next franchise round, SL could be an even more divided competition.

This would be the same revitalised Widnes that may not even make the Championship playoffs this season?

[Errol Stock]

Do the good people of the TRL message board believe we have a good, healthy competiton in SL?

There seems to be a big gap between the haves and have nots in our game and I feel that the salary cap is still not working well enough and that these clubs are struggling to make ends meet and advance in crowd terms.

On your overall question - I think we are slowly progressing in terms of building the game, but unforunately as you say - mainly remaining in the "heartlands" (hate that)..

That said - we still talk "the Big 4" only that now includes Warrington. It would be great and indicative if the pundits referred to the Big 6 or Big 8 without thinking about it.

I am keen to see Catalan to continue growing and becoming less dependant on imports too. My dream would be to see RL as big here as it is in Oz - but don't think I will ever see that day.

On the point I have pulled out above - the salary cap may not always be the answer. Bradford are nowhere near spending to the cap because their income is below it and therfore they cannot spend it! The cap only help equal things out when a backer adds (declared) income which is spent on players upto the cap limit.

So wherever crowds are low and there is no backer - there will remain a problem that capping cannot resolve?

As for low crowds - that is a big concern - very difficult to grow support even when success is aparent.

[Wendall]

On your overall question - I think we are slowly progressing in terms of building the game, but unforunately as you say - mainly remaining in the "heartlands" (hate that)..

That said - we still talk "the Big 4" only that now includes Warrington. It would be great and indicative if the pundits referred to the Big 6 or Big 8 without thinking about it.

I am keen to see Catalan to continue growing and becoming less dependant on imports too. My dream would be to see RL as big here as it is in Oz - but don't think I will ever see that day.

On the point I have pulled out above - the salary cap may not always be the answer. Bradford are nowhere near spending to the cap because their income is below it and therfore they cannot spend it! The cap only help equal things out when a backer adds (declared) income which is spent on players upto the cap limit.

So wherever crowds are low and there is no backer - there will remain a problem that capping cannot resolve?
As for low crowds - that is a big concern - very difficult to grow support even when success is aparent.

I think thats the problem that the likes of Cas, Wakey and even further down the ladder Crusaders and Quins are facing.

They either need to grow their fanbase or else get a rich backer to boost their team and then hoe the fans come.

At the moment poor grounds are holding Cas and Wakey back.

[Tommy The C5t]

On your overall question - I think we are slowly progressing in terms of building the game, but unforunately as you say - mainly remaining in the "heartlands" (hate that)..

That said - we still talk "the Big 4" only that now includes Warrington. It would be great and indicative if the pundits referred to the Big 6 or Big 8 without thinking about it.

I am keen to see Catalan to continue growing and becoming less dependant on imports too. My dream would be to see RL as big here as it is in Oz - but don't think I will ever see that day.

On the point I have pulled out above - the salary cap may not always be the answer. Bradford are nowhere near spending to the cap because their income is below it and therfore they cannot spend it! The cap only help equal things out when a backer adds (declared) income which is spent on players upto the cap limit.

So wherever crowds are low and there is no backer - there will remain a problem that capping cannot resolve?

As for low crowds - that is a big concern - very difficult to grow support even when success is aparent.

At the same time if the sugar daddies pulled out of Warrington and Huddersfield they would be ######ed.

[1976PMJwires]

At the same time if the sugar daddies pulled out of Warrington and Huddersfield they would be ######ed.

Facts please.


just to help you, Turnover was 5.7M

[Wendall]

At the same time if the sugar daddies pulled out of Warrington and Huddersfield they would be ######ed.

Maybe Huddersfield but Warrington has a good solid fanbase.

[Tommy The C5t]

Facts please.


just to help you, Turnover was 5.7M

Yes but you spent 4.6M of that on King getting his hair cut

[Tommy The C5t]

Maybe Huddersfield but Warrington has a good solid fanbase.

I still think Warrington would be in trouble.

Fingers crossed the sugar daddies are here to stay otherwise we would lose a third of clubs overnight.

[1976PMJwires]

Yes but you spent 4.6M of that on King getting his hair cut

Your on fire today.


Wires at present have paid back their loan / debt and have a net profit (only small but its a positive step forward)

[Tommy The C5t]

Your on fire today.


Wires at present have paid back their loan / debt and have a net profit (only small but its a positive step forward)

You wouldn't go bust, but I doubt very much you would be able to keep all the superstars.

[Dave T]

On the point I have pulled out above - the salary cap may not always be the answer. Bradford are nowhere near spending to the cap because their income is below it and therfore they cannot spend it! The cap only help equal things out when a backer adds (declared) income which is spent on players upto the cap limit.

A backer isn't necessarily needed, although that is the quick and easy way to get to full cap spend. People often state that the cap is too low, then it is a disgrace that there are so many clubs who cannot get anywhere near it. This is the reason of the inbalance in playing standards.

There is a massive difference in club's turnovers, and that is the bigger issue than whether a club has a rich backer or not. Sure, clubs can help to improve the turnover with investments of a rich backer, but then is it any surprise that there is a huge difference when some clubs average 16k, some 10k, and some 5k?

I would like the RFL to put more attention on clubs being able to fund a SL team. I know they gave a point for a turnover of £4m last time, but it clearly isn't a strong enough issue as too many have turnovers well below this.

[1976PMJwires]

You wouldn't go bust, but I doubt very much you would be able to keep all the superstars.

The superstars i agree with.

Bulls and Saints over the years haven't got as many, so i agree 100% with that part.

I doubt you would disagree with this.

On Superstars, i just hope no else ever buys a Harris type player and causes them financial ruin like harris / leeds have to the bulls.

[Dave T]

You wouldn't go bust, but I doubt very much you would be able to keep all the superstars.

On a turnover of £5.7m, there is nothing to suggest that we wouldn't be able to afford to pay £1.6m in player wages.

Now, big transfer fees, backroom staff, training facilities, training camps, free supporter coaches etc. are a different thing altogether.

[Errol Stock]

I think thats the problem that the likes of Cas, Wakey and even further down the ladder Crusaders and Quins are facing.

They either need to grow their fanbase or else get a rich backer to boost their team and then hoe the fans come.

At the moment poor grounds are holding Cas and Wakey back.

Think there are two issues here - and number one right now for those clubs with ageing stadia is just that - POOR GROUNDS. Its fantastic to see JJB, KC, HJ, Huddersfield, Headingley and soon Saints & Salford, new grounds are gaining critical mass. That makes it unacceptable to play at a shed while in SL - so yes, Bradford, Wakefield and Cas are in trouble on that front.

As for backers - its obvious who has them? Leeds, Warrington, Wigan, Huddersfield and Saints all appear to have someone bankrolling the spend. Once on a roll, the fan base does increase - a lot of that by word of mouth as friends bring friends etc. and they too experience the buzz.

I believe there is a link between new stadia and income - because better facilites attract more corporate interest and investment - providing the club have the staff and talent to bring it in.

As for the rest its an uphill struggle - if they struggle to attract corporate interest and investment - that filters down to the quality on the field, leading to mundane rugby and poor entertainment.

Ideally it would be great for all clubs to have a backer and a new stadium - something to be proud of and fewer excuses for failure.

Measuring success at the gate would then be easier as we have a benchmark all the clubs are on.

None of this a fool proof theory of course - But dream on eh?

[mick wilson]

This would be the same revitalised Widnes that may not even make the Championship playoffs this season?

Exactly............

SL NEEDS NEW BLOOD, Fev & Barrow would both have a strong fan base, both sides need less new faces to begin to compete as their Showing against SL Prove in the last 2 season Barrow did very very well Vs Wigan at home and both Cas & Sintellens show.

Widnes played Wigan at home and got owned big style.

Fev have a better yoof structure than Barrow but We are addressing that for next season and it could be a very quick fix.

[steef]

With all respect to Barrow and Featherstone, Widnes are miles ahead of them in terms of potentially winning a SL liscence. Regarding Barrows youth system, they had to postpone a reserve game against Oldham the other week due to being unable to raise a side, wich to be honest is a disgrace.

[mick wilson]

With all respect to Barrow and Featherstone, Widnes are miles ahead of them in terms of potentially winning a SL liscence. Regarding Barrows youth system, they had to postpone a reserve game against Oldham the other week due to being unable to raise a side, wich to be honest is a disgrace.

I fully agree here, we are addressing this issue next season as this one almost done and worky have a full team of Barrow lads helping them out, which is nice and neighbourly & in keeping with the RL community spirit.

Widnes are ahead (at the moment as we are still adjusting to the higher division after winning it outright at the 1st time of asking.

[Maximus Decimus]

Widnes are ahead (at the moment as we are still adjusting to the higher division after winning it outright at the 1st time of asking.

How exactly are you adjusting to the higher division, what concrete are you doing?

With all due respect Barrow need to show more be included into Super League. They have come from nowhere in the last couple of years to present what I think is a potentially viable Cumbrian SL club for the future. If we're honest a Cumbrian SL club is never going to get 15,000+ but a club that can show the potential to get maybe 7k would be a good addition to Super League.

However Barrow are not there yet. They had a massive upsurge in crowds that have dropped the year after winning the Championship. This is more of a concern than say Fax, Leigh or Widnes because it should still be new to Barrow fans. They do not have the youth or a stadium in place good enough for Super League. Performing well in one off games against SL clubs means absolutely nothing as all Championship clubs would have to recruit heavily. This is where youth development comes in over temporary form.

Stating that Barrow or Fev should be given a chance means nothing whatsoever and makes a mockery of the licensing system. Just because you haven't had a shot doesn't mean you should get one, it doesn't work like that. You need to prove that you are viable. Here's a sobering thought for you. Widnes and Hull KR, managed to average at best around 4k in the Championship and transferred this into averages of 6-8k in Super League. Barrow and Fev are under 2k despite challenging for the title, similar to the Crusaders and worse than Salford. It doesn't take a genius to work out what Barrow and Fev would be likely to get as well. So why exactly would 3-5k rattling round a rubbish stadium be good for Super League?

Barrow should concentrate on 2015, improve attendances, get the youth systems in place and get work on a new stadium started. Then you would probably be a shoe in.

Edited by Maximus Decimus, 03 August 2010 - 11:46 AM.