Dave T

The standards are always very high. That just doesn't always translate into great games. Enjoyable on a technical level absolutely.

I think plenty of England games (and Wire) have been forgettable despite having skin in the game. I genuinely feel the top internationals have delivered more regularly than Origin on the pitch over the last decade or so. As you say, sometimes that's just how it goes, so I dont think it's a problem or anything, more that we rarely see the same enthusiasm aimed at absolute world class international RL. And on the competitive point (aimed more at those that say the Aussies need to lose more), from the last 13 finals they've played over the last 20 years, they've won 8 and lost 5.

I absolutely accept that emotional investment plays a part in things. But are you genuinely saying that those examples aren't classics at the pinnacle of the game? And I have no issues with comparing the standards of the Rugby either, when we have seen those Origin players beaten in major matches by Kiwis and Tonga. Unfortunately not my own team for a couple of decades! I watch Origin every year and generally enjoy it, but most actual games are forgettable in reality.

To go back to my point about the potential for international RL in this space - in 2021, the England v Samoa WC Semi Final attracted 2.8m viewers on the BBC. The WC Final for Aus v Samoa at 4am attracted over 600k. Neither of these figures are the peak - England in a Final against, say Oz or NZ would be expected to be more attractive than a semi against Samoa. Similarly, the schedule was horrible for those Aussie numbers, again against Samoa as opposed to Eng or NZ. None of this is to be critical of Origin at all, these things should complement each other nicely, and the more viewers the better, whatever the game.

Of course, you could go down that route. However, as good an event as Origin is, and the standard will always be brilliant because you have many of the best players in the world playing, the games aren't always classics, with more and more blowouts than we ever used to see. And as an Englishman, I'm happy to admit that many of the very best international games have been between Aus and NZ who are the best two teams in the World. But when making a case for international RL I'd pick out the likes of: Eng v Samoa (WC21), Aus v NZ (WC21), Tonga v Samoa (WC21), NZ v Tonga (2024), Aus v Tonga (2024), Tonga v Aus (2019), Aus v NZ (2018), NZ v Tonga (RLWC 2017), NZ v Fiji (WC17), Tonga v England (WC17) All of these over the last 8 years or so with limited games, have been absolute all out classics - and there have been others including the likes of Samoa and Tonga etc. And this is without ging too far back and looking at other WC classics in particular. Origin has the event around it, the coverage, the noise, the colour, the crowds, the viewers, all those great things - but international RL at the top level has delivered in absolute buckets.

We dont have a measure of 'profile' for 1996, nor do we have one for 2025, so evidence outside of the numbers I've talked about on attendances and viewing figures aren't there. All the numbers I presented show that there are more eyeballs on the game. I do think the suggestion that people dont have awareness of the sport is a bit of a false position that gets overstated. People know about RL. Not everyone, living in Scotland I meet people who dont know the difference between RU and RL, but they aren't people with basic knowledge of sport. Anyone with a passing knowledge of sport knows that RL is a thing. The challenge is getting them engaging at any level with it, but that's pretty much the same with plenty of people who know Netball is a thing, but couldn't tell you anything about it or name a team etc. Obviously terrestrial tv has changed and viewing figures may be lower than 30 or 40 years ago for big games and finals, that doesn't mean people dont know they are still being played now. I do think we've lost some attention with the lack of movement between Union and Rugby, but again, those people still know that Rugby is there. So it does bring us back to SL KPI's pretty much all being better than 1996, which makes it hard to present an argument that the profile is lower now than then. There is plenty of scope for London to do well. The profile of the sport isn't dragging them back.

Possibly the worst injury hit season i can recall as a Wire fan tbh.

It's a shame that we won't get a large Aus audience, largely due to the time slots, because in the UK I'd hope we can be pushing the 2m mark. It's easy to see a future where worldwide viewing figures beat Origin, and relatively comfortably.

Top level international RL is often better than Origin without question.

Mascord is just being Mascord. Presenting a rather dumb point as intellectual and hard hitting. We'll ignore the fact that the record SL crowd is in Barcelona where the profile of RL is zero and also the invention of Magic Weekend to take SL to new cities. It's a weird point to look at for success of a comp, I dont think it would make any metric list even if you picked your top thousand KPI's. Haven't Penrith delivered some rubbish crowds playing out of a different ground this year? And many of the places that NRL take games to are smaller suburban grounds. A Sydney club playing in a larger Sydney based stadium isn't really a comparable point at all, and Union over here does that better than the NRL does, but im sure nobody would claim it's bigger. It's just a nonsense point.

Profile is a little vague, but if we look at viewers of SL, crowds are better than back then - for that 10k crowd you may quote, I could highlight a few horrendous ones, talking less than 2k and the likes of Cas getting crowds like that and Wire getting 4k etc. Oldham, Workington etc were car crashes. We had a couple of live games on Sky, we now have 6 per week plus a handful of games on BBC. And we can't ignore social media where we have reach into the millions now. People often look back very fondly on the 90s, but we were in a bad state and tbh, we were all moaning about the lack of features about our stars back then too. So, bigger crowds, more viewers, millions via social media - the world has changed, but I'd struggle to be convinced that the profile is lower than 30 years ago.

Great stats, they're going on the offensive shouting about these numbers this year to drive the conversation on TV rights. Watching it I must admit it made me think of what we might see in the Ashes later in the year. For all the build up and excitement, NSW were pretty dominant and in control and looked slick at times. It was not unlike watching an Aussie v Eng/GB games at times where the Aussies are a 9/10 versus England's 8 and always one step ahead.

Yeah, I must admit the crowd did surprise me at that. I do think we get nice boosts from new and impressive grounds, but I wonder if that is a lesser factor in London. If youre travelling to London anyway, maybe Spurs just doesn't have the pull of Wembley. I expect Spurs ain't much of a pull for locals too as they have plenty events there.

It is possible, as proven by other sports. The reason it isn't possible in RL is because of RL. For all the talk of the NRL wanting collaboration, they still won't commit to the one game WCC.

In reality, the way we attract new pots of funding into the game via sponsors, partners and media companies is through new assets. We've given up on international tournaments like 9s and 8Nations etc. and we've effectively given up on Club World series'. These could absolutely have complemented our calendar nicely, and offered something new to partners. These things dont have to clash with the league comps.

You would hope that there are conversations ongoing about trying to get other investment. That's why they are trying to keep them alive. Although who on earth would want to take in the club right now with such debts and limited potential to get out of it. Even if you were interested right now, you may as well wait for them to fail now at this point.

There is no reason that a Hudds final should be the same level as a Catalans Final though.

The evidence just doesn't support this. Didn't you see Elland Road deliver the worst Magic ever? Anfield not much better. Manchester has the GF. Newcastle has Magic. We saw when we played at Spurs, a great new ground, it wasn't as big a draw as Wembley and deliverd a low crowd for a Wigan final. Moving to a standard football ground would be a terrible move imo.

When we refer to profile of SL being low, what do you mean? Due to the new tv deal last year there are more eyeballs on SL than ever in its history. It may not be anywhere near where we believe it should be, but SL does have a higher level of awareness than years ago when London did better.

I dont think Wembley is a must at all. But it would be a hugely negative step to play it in the North of England.

Why is Northern England the next option?

60k at Wembley is unlikely to translate to 60k in the North of England. If you move from Wembley you have to stay in prestigious places like Cardiff, Edinburgh etc.

The WCS was essentially a test. It worked well. Decent crowds and English teams competitive. Sacked off.

7.5k remaining on the RFL website (out of c70k open) Unknowns are what are not on that site and sitting with other clubs, community clubs, partners, hospitality etc. So max of 62k sold so far, probably a good few k less.

I agree with your frustration, not pushing ahead with a meaningful WCS is a big missed opportunity imo, but I'm less worried about the fact RU are doing it point. Where my frustration sits is that they will probably do a decent job of it and it will be another thing where you think with a bit of focus, effort and investment, we could have had similar. So whilst I don't think we need to compare directly with Union, we absolutely can be frustrated with the lack of growth in this area.