Damien

I've given you two sellouts in the last 10 years without looking further. Look I get that you don't like Old Trafford and wish to move the final, that's fine. I get the whole Old Traford is a dump with a poor pitch for RL. However you keep purposely making up facts and distorting reality with regards the crowds we get to try and backup your argument and that is wrong. I mean even this new last 6 years averaging under 60k line you are using is a case in point. The first 3 of those finals wouldn't have fitted in the Etihad and included a 72,827 sellout. The last 3 included 2 Catalans finals and a season when things were far away from normal after Covid and a 45k crowd that was the lowest since the first Grand final. That crowd is hardly representative of Grand Final crowds and is such a outlier no one in their right mind would use it.

I mean we can either believe every report on this or believe Bedfordshire Bronco: This weekend's Super League Grand Final in Manchester will be watched by a record sell-out crowd at Old Trafford. More than 73,000 tickets have been snapped up for the title decider between Wigan and Leeds on Saturday when the Rhinos will be attempting to secure the treble - having already won the Challenge Cup and League Leaders' Shield. The previous best attendance for a Grand Final was 72,582 in 2006 when St Helens beat Hull. Super League general manager Blake Solly said: "The last few weeks have been a brilliant time for rugby league in this country. "We have seen the League Leaders' Shield won with the last play of the season, one of the greatest ever semi-final encounters and, as a result, a huge surge in demand for tickets. "I am delighted there will be a full house to watch the game on Saturday between the two top teams in the Super League this year and I can't wait to watch what promises to be a great event." https://www.skysports.com/amp/rugby-league/news/12196/10019806/sell-out-for-super-league-grand-final-at-old-trafford-on-saturday

It was a sellout. I mean it was a record crowd and according to wiki The sellout crowd of 73,512 at Old Trafford set a new Super League Grand Final attendance record, eclipsing the previous record of 72,575 established at the 2006 Super League Grand Final.[2] British indie rock band The Charlatans headlined the pre-match and half-time entertainment.[3] If you wish to ignore that it is up to you. Strange you ignore the other one that states a sellout with a lower crowd than this too. Obviously the total seats available varies due to entertainment etc.

Not necessarily, it can still be done without conferences. You could even just go to 24 in time, with Melbourne 2 and Central Coast as well, and have the same number of games as now I can see the pros and cons of conferences but people do talk about them with 20 teams too.

I know they say 20 but that always seems like a short term, next decade sort of goal. I'm sure once we get to 20 that 22 would be possible in the longer term, especially when you consider those you mention and factor in somewhere like Adelaide

We know Man City in the past have been reluctant to allow RL games during the Football season and resisted attempts to play internationals there after we had one in the 4 Nations some years ago. Magic is a different beast as it isn't fixed but even that was actually changed to a later date when it moved to the Etihad so it would be after the Football season ended.

You only need to go back 6 and 8 finals to find the last two: 6 years ago: As part of the pre-match entertainment for the 20th instalment of the Super League Grand Final, the sell-out crowd was treated to a Northern Soul medley to whet the appetite for kick-off. In hindsight it might have been wiser to plump for Motown because, as the Four Tops sang way back when, it’s the same old song once again for Leeds and their Old Trafford opponents. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/oct/07/castleford-leeds-super-league-grand-final-match-report 8 years ago: It was a victory for rugby league before a 73,512 record attendance for a Grand Final at Old Trafford, despite the presence of England's union side just miles away playing Uruguay at the nearby Etihad Stadium. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/34457977

There have certainly been sellouts.

17 years straight having an attendance over 62k is pretty consistent. Not sure why you'd base a strategy around Covid affected years and two years that include an overseas team. And attendances did show the game was affected in those years as was debated widely on here. Seems pretty flawed to me. Grand finals have sold out at Old Trafford, that is false. The last Catlans final was actually quite good and only a touch under the capacity of the Etihad at 58,137.

The Perth/North Sydney joint venture is nonsensical. Perth do not want it and a city with a population of 2.5 million shouldn't be sharing half their games.

It's not though. The 17 Grand Finals prior to the Covid/Catalans years all had a capacity exceeding 62k, including 7 that exceeded 70k.

As I always say in this debate I am also very wary to just leave what has been a pretty fantastic partner for Rugby League for nearly 40 years. That's not to be dismissed lightly. Old Trafford have always accommodated Rugby League when we've needed it and have even prioritised the sport over an RU World Cup. In contrast many of the other major Football grounds in the North, bar Elland Road which is even older and smaller, have shown a reluctance to hold Rugby League at various times, including the likes of the Etihad and Anfield. We could easily go elsewhere then that ground may not be interested after a couple of years then what.

Agreed, being sat in the older touchline stand was easily the most uncomfortable I have been at any ground. Absolutely awful. At the 4 Nations final people were just getting up and standing in the stairwells and entrances and some were just leaving completely. No stand at Old Trafford is as bad as that. I can understand leaving Old Trafford if there is a strong argument is to go to a similar sized ground in the North that is of a more modern standard. However I'm yet to see it and to leave Old Trafford for a much smaller ground, that also isn't up to par, is nonsensical.

It is absolutely is a lack of money at all levels and over a sustained period of time. When the game did have money, as you highlight, the game was developing very nicely. That was even on just a fraction of the money other sports spend. The trouble is 6 years is nowhere near enough and it all counts for nothing when it runs out if there is no infrastructure there to take over. That infrastructure costs money. Clubs having proper roots and grounds costs money. London Broncos doing well costs money. Again when they did have money they were in a very different place to now. Ditto London Skolars. All of this is needed to have any sort of pathway from youth to the professional game and its all lacking at the moment.

Based on his history there was always a good chance it wouldn't work out