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#41 Bob Fowler

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 11:28 AM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Dec 15 2009, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
8. Approval of the visa's for overseas players last year, which turned out to be wrong resulting in the Celtic deportations, it is also deafeningly quiet regarding the other 13 or so other clubs who had also signed players using the incorrect visas.

9. A salary cap system, which is not ensuring clubs are avoiding financial difficulty, numerous clubs in all divisions are all reporting financial issues.

10. Abysmal attendances for the internationals.

11. The "Magic Weekend" is always reported as a resounding success with a gate of around 60000 across the 2 days, but I'd love to know how many people from the areas where the "weekend" takes place attend, most of the supporters of the clubs attend which would account for the majority of these 60000 IMO. This does not a constitute a success to me.

12. Finishing top of the league does not make you championship winners, that is decided by 1 game, the final, at the end of the season. Surely the best team is the one who consistantly, over the whole season, wins more games than anyone else.

13. A cup competition (NRC) which stops and starts throughout the season resulting in several weeks without a game for most clubs, and a lack of interest with most supporters, due to it being so disjointed.

14. Toulouse being allowed to start in the middle Division instead of the bottom tier, and they are exempt from relegation at the expense of teams around them.

....... If the 14 SL clubs vote for removing every other clubs from existence there is nothing the rest can do. They could also decide with the financial situation as it is at the current time, to keep all of the money from Sky next year if they see fit, then what?

Couple this to the fact that it doesn't matter even if you win the right to join SL on the playing field by winning the league ala Barrow last year, that avenue for success has been removed too, with the introduction of the licencing system with no promotion and relegation.

It saddens me to think that the selected few teams have been allowed to get away with this injustice and closed shop mentality for so long.

The argument has always been the likes of Batley would never compete at SL level, and that is probably true, as it stands, however a baloon payment was payed to Castleford when they were relegated from SL. How that could ever be justified is beyond me? Surely the best way to improve the game would be to pay some kind of baloon payment to help the newly promoted SL side to compete at a higher level. I'm talking about real investment from the RFL, to develop the club's infrastructure, not just short term with playing staff or just enough money to fund a team full of journeymen SL cast offs like Widnes were full of a couple of years back, but help with the set up of junior ranks from under 9's to open age teams, with close links to BARLA. Help with marketing and community development, the kind of work that is going off in development areas to help expand the game, and thus trying to improve the club long term. The stronger the game in the heartlands, the better the opportunity to expand the game in the future to non RL areas. Huge plaudits must go to the development work in the communities that already goes on by clubs themsleves, but with extra resources provided by the RFL it begs the question what improvements could be made to what is already happening.

Sorry if my input is not really welcomed on here, but I started a similar thread on the Batley Website and I wanted to lend a bit of support, so I hope it's welcomed, and to let you know that you're not on your own with your feelings regarding the state of the game.

For what it's worth I believe the only way forward is to break away for SL, but the issue as someone has already stated is the 100k each club is getting from sky at the moment, but for how long we will continue to recieve this payment is anyones guess.

Well thought out and a very welcome post, even if not everyone agree's with it. I know many Championship clubs are working with local junior teams at schoolboy level. The one danger we have in that is that as soon as a player shows promise the bigger clubs come in and claim him as their own. I wouldn't wish to see a 14 year old tied to any professional club, but if that doesn't happen, then the Champioship clubs could be the one's paying out to make "stars" of the future. I don't see a simple solution, but your post goes a long way in making sense.
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#42 Jonty

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 11:38 AM

QUOTE (DMS @ Dec 14 2009, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
5. I don't know what the voting rights of clubs are now but i do not see how one vote per club is wrong. Providing they are full members of RL.

My understanding is that the voting rights are weighted proportionately by the membership of each competition. eg.

Each CC and CC1 club gets 1 vote = 22 votes or 1 vote each
Each SL club gets 22 divided by 14 votes = 22 votes or 1.57 votes each
BARLA = 3 votes

I'm pretty sure that other areas of the amateur game (eg. SRL, Combined Services, schools etc.) get 1 vote apiece too.

The voting structure is defined so that the combined power of the CC clubs is equal to the combined power of the SL clubs. If SL expanded to 22 teams and the CC reduced to 14, then the CC clubs would have 1.57 votes instead, switching the situation. If SL had 18 teams and the CC 18 teams, then each club would have 1 equal vote.

The irony of this situation is that if the SL clubs and CC clubs are tied on a vote, then the amateur game carries the deciding votes...

Edited by Jonty, 15 December 2009 - 11:41 AM.

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#43 Pride & Heritage

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE (Bob Fowler @ Dec 15 2009, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well thought out and a very welcome post, even if not everyone agree's with it. I know many Championship clubs are working with local junior teams at schoolboy level. The one danger we have in that is that as soon as a player shows promise the bigger clubs come in and claim him as their own. I wouldn't wish to see a 14 year old tied to any professional club, but if that doesn't happen, then the Champioship clubs could be the one's paying out to make "stars" of the future. I don't see a simple solution, but your post goes a long way in making sense.


Thanks for your support, I too would rather not see any kids tied to any team, however they are being bought from young ages by the bigger clubs like Leeds and Wigan anyway, so one way to help reduce the issue of big clubs buying all, and in some cases wasting, the promising talent is a flat rated salary cap on running junior teams by all clubs, regardless of size, or all clubs having an embargo on signing anyone under the age of 16. This would ensure that the big clubs could not snap up all the best available talent, and meaning they are streets ahead of the other teams, and this would lead to a more evenly contested league system providing even competition throughout junior ranks, aiding the development of future star players up to the professional ranks.

#44 marklaspalmas

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:25 PM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Dec 15 2009, 12:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks for your support, I too would rather not see any kids tied to any team, however they are being bought from young ages by the bigger clubs like Leeds and Wigan anyway, so one way to help reduce the issue of big clubs buying all, and in some cases wasting, the promising talent is a flat rated salary cap on running junior teams by all clubs, regardless of size, or all clubs having an embargo on signing anyone under the age of 16. This would ensure that the big clubs could not snap up all the best available talent, and meaning they are streets ahead of the other teams, and this would lead to a more evenly contested league system providing even competition throughout junior ranks, aiding the development of future star players up to the professional ranks.


The embargo is not going to work.

The kids and their parents want to link up with the pro clubs for numerous reasons: professional training & advice, future contracts, etc.

The clubs want it too, to guide & develop lads from an early age.

There are already numerous regulations in place for all sports (soccer is much worse than RL) about what kids can sign at what age.

It works fine.

The problem is: Are Fev, Batley (your club, but Im not sure if you even have a junior team so an academic point in your case), etc really competing with Wigan & Leeds?

No we're not. If the top clubs want a player of ours at any age, he's gone. It's ALWAYS been like that. The difference is in the past if we had a lad on pro forms at 17 then any future move to a big club would've brought a fee. Now it doesn't.

However, salary cap restrictions mean that clubs like Leeds can't stockpile all their promising youngsters anyway, hence lads like Danny Allen and Michael Coady become available tyo Fev in 2010.

It works both ways.

#45 marklaspalmas

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Dec 15 2009, 09:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
8. Approval of the visa's for overseas players last year, which turned out to be wrong resulting in the Celtic deportations, it is also deafeningly quiet regarding the other 13 or so other clubs who had also signed players using the incorrect visas.

9. A salary cap system, which is not ensuring clubs are avoiding financial difficulty, numerous clubs in all divisions are all reporting financial issues.

10. Abysmal attendances for the internationals.

11. The "Magic Weekend" is always reported as a resounding success with a gate of around 60000 across the 2 days, but I'd love to know how many people from the areas where the "weekend" takes place attend, most of the supporters of the clubs attend which would account for the majority of these 60000 IMO. This does not a constitute a success to me.

12. Finishing top of the league does not make you championship winners, that is decided by 1 game, the final, at the end of the season. Surely the best team is the one who consistantly, over the whole season, wins more games than anyone else.

13. A cup competition (NRC) which stops and starts throughout the season resulting in several weeks without a game for most clubs, and a lack of interest with most supporters, due to it being so disjointed.

14. Toulouse being allowed to start in the middle Division instead of the bottom tier, and they are exempt from relegation at the expense of teams around them.


8. Celtic's problem, one of many. Suggesting all other SL clubs have broken the law is a dangerous comment unless you have proof.

9. It's doing it's job. We're in a recession. Things would be worse without a cap.

10. Yep.

11. Who cares? It's a SL event which is nowt to do with us.

12. RL has always had Championship playoffs apart from a short time from 1973 to 1995. Playoffs are great, action & excitemnet packed.

13. ITs far from perfect, but it's getting better. The CC clubs need their own knockout cup.

14. Yes. They seem to have been deposited in our league as a stepping stone to SL. Ive enjoyed them being here as have tons of FEv fans who have been to FRance, but the way it's been set up wasn't right.

#46 Pride & Heritage

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 12:56 PM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Dec 15 2009, 12:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The embargo is not going to work.

The kids and their parents want to link up with the pro clubs for numerous reasons: professional training & advice, future contracts, etc.

The clubs want it too, to guide & develop lads from an early age.

There are already numerous regulations in place for all sports (soccer is much worse than RL) about what kids can sign at what age.

It works fine.

The problem is: Are Fev, Batley (your club, but Im not sure if you even have a junior team so an academic point in your case), etc really competing with Wigan & Leeds?

No we're not. If the top clubs want a player of ours at any age, he's gone. It's ALWAYS been like that. The difference is in the past if we had a lad on pro forms at 17 then any future move to a big club would've brought a fee. Now it doesn't.

However, salary cap restrictions mean that clubs like Leeds can't stockpile all their promising youngsters anyway, hence lads like Danny Allen and Michael Coady become available tyo Fev in 2010.

It works both ways.


Good points, and you're right we don't have an academy side at present, and I can see both sides of the argument in Batley's case for the lack of an academy/junior team. We were unsuccessful in gaining many if any real talent over the years, by that I don't wish to take anything away from the lads that turned out every week, but very few made the step up to the 1st team in all the years we ran a team. Batley took the route a couple of years back in signing lads from SL academies who had not made the step up to SL 1st teamers instead, and so far we have signed a few real good lads, Mennel, Gallagher and few others who have been outstanding at CH level.

I suppose what I was trying to say, is the well of young talent seems to be drying up a bit at the amateur levels. I don't know, but is that because the big clubs are snapping them up early, or is it just a case of we are losing the battle to attract young lads away from football?

I may be wrong in my assessment, I honestly can't speak for the like Travellers Saints, Stanley Rangers etc. or any of the local teams around Wakefield Featherstone or Castleford, but I went to see Dudley Hill a few weeks back, and they, and other teams like Thornhill and many others in there division seem to be scratching around for teams rather than having lads that look up to the standards they were at even 5 or 6 years back. Are the lads who don't quite make the grade, who are signed by the likes of Leeds simply becoming disillutioned and leaving the game forever?

Edited by Pride & Heritage, 15 December 2009 - 01:06 PM.


#47 marklaspalmas

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Posted 15 December 2009 - 01:07 PM

QUOTE (Pride & Heritage @ Dec 15 2009, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good points, and you're right we don't have an academy side at present, and I can see both sides of the argument in Batley's case for the lack of an academy/junior team. We were unsuccessful in gaining many if any real talent over the years, by that I don't wish to take anything away from the lads that turned out every week, but very few made the step up to the 1st team in all the years we ran a team. Batley took the route a couple of years back in signing lads from SL academies who had not made the step up to SL 1st teamers instead, and so far we have signed a few real good lads, Mennel, Gallagher and few others who have been outstanding at CH level.

I suppose what I was trying to say the well of young talent seems to be drying up a bit at the amateur levels. I don't know, but is that because the big clubs are snapping them up early, or is it just a case of we are losing the battle to attract young lads away from football?

I may be wrong in my assessment, I honestly can't speak for the like Travellers Saints, Stanley Rangers etc. or any of the local teams around Wakefield Featherstone or Castleford, but I went to see Dudley Hill a few weeks back, and they, and other teams like Thornhill and many others in there division seem to be scratching around for teams rather than having lads that look up to the standards they were at even 5 or 6 years back. Are the lads who don't quite make the grade, who are signed by the likes of Leeds simply becoming disillutioned and leaving the game forever?


Yes, there are arguemts for and against CC clubs bothering with junior/U21 teams. Im glad Fev do, but I can understand why Batley don't.

With regards to numbers, it's hard to say without the facts. There are many counter-attractions today, and many other sports to choose from. You mention the Travs who are long gone, but their successors Featherstone Lions have a very strong junior set up and recently yet another of their old boys made it to international level: Tom Briscoe.

If other BARLA clubs are scrtaching round for players, I hardly think we can simply blame the "big clubs" of SL for that. There are many issues.
Should the kids be playing in the summer to improve conditions?
Many schools used to do great RL development work. Much of that has been destroyed over the years.
Soccer has grown to be enormous and all dominating.
BARLA and the RFL have had a terrible relationship, often to the detriment of the lads themsleves.

Again you mention disillusioned lads at Leeds, but we've just taken three players off them from whom we have high hopes in 2010.

#48 Phil Stone

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 08:48 AM

http://news.bbc.co.u...ers/8415204.stm

Domestic talent unavailable? Seems like the players don't want to go to Wales.I can't believe they couldn't find any players not signed up who weren't willing to go play there.
14 overseas players is an absolute joke.

#49 Bob Fowler

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:44 AM

Reading between the lines the reason this move was allowed, was simply because Crusaders owed the RFL money, and they wanted it back, allowing the club to die would lose them this debt, keeping them alive in any way shape or form, gives them a chance to recoup.
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#50 marklaspalmas

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 11:53 AM

Bob, the RFL advanced Celtic some of their SKY money for 2010. It's not really a question of 'getting it back' as much as getting their money's worth of having a WElsh SL side for at least 2010 and 2011 till their franchises are up for renewal (which will be interesting).

Phil, whilst accepting that 14 is far too any overseas players (just like most SL clubs in fact), they were faced with no option this year. REcruiting six weeks before the start of the season for proven UK based SL players is impossible. Let's see how they do in the future (and 'no better at all' looks the most likely answer).

For the development of WElsh players we should perhaps be looking at South Wales RLFC in CC1 under the control of (maybe) Iestyn Harris.

#51 LOWFIELD

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE (marklaspalmas @ Dec 16 2009, 12:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bob, the RFL advanced Celtic some of their SKY money for 2010. It's not really a question of 'getting it back' as much as getting their money's worth of having a WElsh SL side for at least 2010 and 2011 till their franchises are up for renewal (which will be interesting).

Phil, whilst accepting that 14 is far too any overseas players (just like most SL clubs in fact), they were faced with no option this year. REcruiting six weeks before the start of the season for proven UK based SL players is impossible. Let's see how they do in the future (and 'no better at all' looks the most likely answer).

For the development of WElsh players we should perhaps be looking at South Wales RLFC in CC1 under the control of (maybe) Iestyn Harris.


Whats this 6 weeks? they have been around for nearly 5 years


#52 DMS

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 01:12 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stone @ Dec 16 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
http://news.bbc.co.u...ers/8415204.stm

Domestic talent unavailable? Seems like the players don't want to go to Wales.I can't believe they couldn't find any players not signed up who weren't willing to go play there.
14 overseas players is an absolute joke.

I think they probably could find a couple of dozen players who would turn out for them but that way would end up with them getting some terrible thrashings. This wouldn't look good for SL. Far better they employ loads of Aussie journeymen and win the odd game. It can be called a "success" then.
I do find this topic thoroughly depressing, it just confirms what i've believed for a few years. RL at semi professional level is dying. If you look at all the clubs at our level, i think everyone of them (including us) has been on the verge of extinction at one time or other.
Of the SL clubs that i can find the information, most are running with huge debts, maybe manageable but huge all the same.
"FEVVED UP AND RARING TO GO"

#53 Robin Evans

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 01:41 PM

Thing is Dave, if we (RL outside SL) go under, it will only be a matter of time before the whole game becomes a memory.
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#54 DMS

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 02:00 PM

QUOTE (Robin Evans @ Dec 16 2009, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thing is Dave, if we (RL outside SL) go under, it will only be a matter of time before the whole game becomes a memory.

Agreed Robin. When and if the RL heirarchy finally realise the damage they are doing to the game below SL i hope they will reverse the inequalities they have inflicted on us. Rugby league cannot survive as SL only.
Simply put, P+R and all 3 leagues playing under 1 set of rules (overseas players, bonus points etc),
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#55 sidnee

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:08 PM

"The more Welsh players that come into the mix, the better it is for Super League. We need to spread the word".

Spread the word.....!!! They have been around long enough know for everyone to know about them. Problem is, nobody can find them 'cos they keep moving. Get 1 fan base started then move to the other end of the country. Where is the inspiration for any potential fan to follow them??



The Super League club will have access to players from new Championship One outfit South Wales, which will act as a feeder club but also have Super League aspirations of their own.

Surprise, surprise. They don't even exist yet but have super league aspirations! No doubt its Tolouse next and then 3 years later its the welsh again.
Stinks, absolutely stinks.

The future is very bleak indeed. Action is needed now or there won't be anything left to act upon.

Edited by sidnee, 16 December 2009 - 03:10 PM.

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#56 GAZ1983

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 03:57 PM

QUOTE (Phil Stone @ Dec 16 2009, 08:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
http://news.bbc.co.u...ers/8415204.stm

Domestic talent unavailable? Seems like the players don't want to go to Wales.I can't believe they couldn't find any players not signed up who weren't willing to go play there.
14 overseas players is an absolute joke.

this madness has to stop Phil...RL?...more like R.I.P.

#57 Phil Stone

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Posted 16 December 2009 - 05:36 PM

There's more.The Crusaders are banking on big away crowds, expecting Leeds to take 4000. If the likes of Saints, Wigan, Warrington and even Cas take large numbers they will look like they are being successful in attracting crowds when it will all be on the back of the away fans from the heartlands, the place where the RFL seem to despise.If we had 4000 Leeds fans turning up and due to us being in SL increased our own support we would be playing to a near capacity audience.Instead it looks like we are just sold out.

'Retout added: "This is a massive coup for Wrexham and for North Wales. "It should be good for Wrexham and good for the economy of north Wales.

"For example, we're expecting Leeds Rhinos to bring around 4,000 fans for the first match at the Racecourse on 29 January and make a weekend of it.'

Good for Wrexham? Not the sport of RL.







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