Russia

[Guest]

Can you trust or even believe Russian 'facts'?

Well unless the oraganization for security and co-operation(OSCE) who assessed the on the day voting positively overall are on putin's payroll or are secret Stalinists I'll trust and believe them. Although they did report that allegations were made by of the other candidates that large numbers of industrial workers had been bussed to the polling stations in order to vote for Putin.

[Guest]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37495067?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

 

I'll just leave this here...

I hate to be pedantic on such a serious and tragic issue but I don't know how you could have possibly known who the culprits had been before the results of the investigation had been published today. Either way it doesn't really matter and the question now shifts to will anybody be held accountable and face criminal charges and will the living family members of the victims receive compensation??

[GeordieSaint]

Well unless the oraganization for security and co-operation(OSCE) who assessed the on the day voting positively overall are on putin's payroll or are secret Stalinists I'll trust and believe them. Although they did report that allegations were made by of the other candidates that large numbers of industrial workers had been bussed to the polling stations in order to vote for Putin.

 

That's a very brief summary of the actual report. Here's the opening paragraph from P18 of the report, which refers to the Election Day itself:

 

"On election day, the OSCE/ODIHR EOM observers visited over 1,000 polling stations. Voting was assessed as “good” and “very good” in 95 per cent of polling stations visited; however, the process deteriorated significantly during the count that was assessed as “bad” and “very bad” in almost one-third of polling stations observed due to procedural irregularities."

 

The report clearly has issues with many aspects of the election process. Report link for anyone interested: http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/90469

 

It's final conclusion? "The final report concludes that the contest was clearly skewed in favour of one of the contestants." 

 

Got to love Russian 'facts'.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Trump sides with Russia.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/14/politics/donald-trump-mh17-plane-russians/index.html

[GeordieSaint]

Trump sides with Russia.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/14/politics/donald-trump-mh17-plane-russians/index.html

 

How does he know? He doesn't even read the briefs he's been given by his own team... the likelihood of him reading the report in full... 

[Bedford Roughyed]

How does he know? He doesn't even read the briefs he's been given by his own team... the likelihood of him reading the report in full... 

 

 

Because he is the best, the best at reading things, the best.

[GeordieSaint]

It's taken him three months, but he got there in the end. Boris causes his first diplomatic row.

Boris has no appreciation of the law of unintended consequences shocker! How is this idiot our foreign secretary?

 

Griff - hope you don't mind; shifted this to here as think it's worth of further discussion.

 

I absolutely agree that Boris is a buffoon and should not be Foreign Secretary. Despite that, do you not think he has a point about Russia and its actions? I personally wouldn't have called for demonstrations but no matter what vehicle any nation uses against the Russians under Putin, consequences follow in some form. It really is about time the world held his regime to account.

[GeordieSaint]

I personally wouldn't have called for demonstrations but no matter what vehicle any nation uses against the Russians under Putin, consequences follow in some form. It really is about time the world held his regime to account.

 

Clearly Seamus Milne disagrees with me...

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/11/boris-johnson-calls-for-demonstrations-outside-the-russian-embas/

 

<Ignore the title of the article - it says Corbyn and not Milne>

[Bedford Roughyed]

Griff - hope you don't mind; shifted this to here as think it's worth of further discussion.

 

I absolutely agree that Boris is a buffoon and should not be Foreign Secretary. Despite that, do you not think he has a point about Russia and its actions? I personally wouldn't have called for demonstrations but no matter what vehicle any nation uses against the Russians under Putin, consequences follow in some form. It really is about time the world held his regime to account.

 

 

He called for demonstrations to try and embarrass corbyn over the STW crew.  They are happy to protest at the USA etc but are strongly quiet on Putin and Syria.  It really wasn't the sort of thing he should be saying as foreign secretary, where minor words matter!  All for the sake of a dig at Corbyn, its what you can do as a backbencher , certainly not on the front bench.

[GeordieSaint]

He called for demonstrations to try and embarrass corbyn over the STW crew.  They are happy to protest at the USA etc but are strongly quiet on Putin and Syria.  It really wasn't the sort of thing he should be saying as foreign secretary, where minor words matter!  All for the sake of a dig at Corbyn, its what you can do as a backbencher , certainly not on the front bench.

 

I get that BR; it's the concept of holding Russia to account I am interested in. 

[Guest]

I get that BR; it's the concept of holding Russia to account I am interested in.

How exactly would you hold Russia to account. Sanctions? Maybe war?

[GeordieSaint]

How exactly would you hold Russia to account. Sanctions? Maybe war?

 

Diplomacy, political isolation, reduce the requirement to import energy sources to Europe etc etc; there are plenty of options available other than war. Put it buntly, the world needs to confront Russia in these areas but remain motivated and strong; compromise is interpreted by Putin and Russia as a sign of weakness and that he can do what he wants. It is part of the Russian cultural psyche. I have no doubt you'll disagree but Russia can't be allowed to carve up the world as it sees fit and flout International Law and agreements. 

[Guest]

Diplomacy, political isolation, reduce the requirement to import energy sources to Europe etc etc; there are plenty of options available other than war. Put it buntly, the world needs to confront Russia in these areas but remain motivated and strong; compromise is interpreted by Putin and Russia as a sign of weakness and that he can do what he wants. It is part of the Russian cultural psyche. I have no doubt you'll disagree but Russia can't be allowed to carve up the world as it sees fit and flout International Law and agreements.

You're right to presume that I don't agree on both counts of taking any action on Russia and that the Russians are carving up the world and flouting international law. Russia was invited into the country by the legitimate government of a sovereign country namely Syria. We(US&UK) should be fighting alongside the Russians rather than arming the so called "rebels."

I take it that you'll also be calling on the world community to take action on Saudi Arabia and the U.S. For invading and bombing Yemen?? Likewise you no doubt were protesting the siege and bombing of gaza by Israel and the levelling of Fallujah by the U.S. During the occupation of Iraq??

[GeordieSaint]

You're right to presume that I don't agree on both counts of taking any action on Russia and that the Russians are carving up the world and flouting international law. Russia was invited into the country by the legitimate government of a sovereign country namely Syria. We(US&UK) should be fighting alongside the Russians rather than arming the so called "rebels."

I take it that you'll also be calling on the world community to take action on Saudi Arabia and the U.S. For invading and bombing Yemen?? Likewise you no doubt were protesting the siege and bombing of gaza by Israel and the levelling of Fallujah by the U.S. During the occupation of Iraq??

Saudi Arabia's tactcis are incompetent resulting in far too many civilian deaths so yes, pressure should be applied to stop those tactics being used. Read back on the Gaza threads on here and you'll see I was very anti-Israel in the tactics they used. US actions were far from perfect in Fallujah but at least the city was practically cleared of civilians so allowing for a wider range of urban combat tactics to used. Aleppo and Fallujah are very different case studies with Aleppo being similar to Gaza or Grozny.

I know a little about Urban Combat Operations; they are the most difficult to plan and conduct. But the Russian actions in Aleppo are abhorrent and the world is allowing Russia to get away it. The sheer scale and risk to civilians far outweighs Saudi or US actions elsewhere. It's on the same scale as the Israelis assault in Gaza in terms of impact but over a far long period of time. If you denounce Israeli actions and the Saudis (invited by the Yemenese Government of course - no parallels to Syria then?!) but fail to denounce Russian actions in Aleppo, well your moral compass needs recalibrating unless you are Seamus Milne.

[Guest]

Saudi Arabia's tactcis are incompetent resulting in far too many civilian deaths so yes, pressure should be applied to stop those tactics being used. Read back on the Gaza threads on here and you'll see I was very anti-Israel in the tactics they used. US actions were far from perfect in Fallujah but at least the city was practically cleared of civilians so allowing for a wider range of urban combat tactics to used. Aleppo and Fallujah are very different case studies with Aleppo being similar to Gaza or Grozny.

I know a little about Urban Combat Operations; they are the most difficult to plan and conduct. But the Russian actions in Aleppo are abhorrent and the world is allowing Russia to get away it. The sheer scale and risk to civilians far outweighs Saudi or US actions elsewhere. It's on the same scale as the Israelis assault in Gaza in terms of impact but over a far long period of time. If you denounce Israeli actions and the Saudis (invited by the Yemenese Government of course - no parallels to Syria then?!) but fail to denounce Russian actions in Aleppo, well your moral compass needs recalibrating unless you are Seamus Milne.

If you look back through all of my posts you'll see that although I fully support Russia's mission in Syria I strongly oppose the tactic of both Russia and Syria bombing heavily populated areas as it's counterproductive and more seriously a crime. You'll also see in my posts that I support a ceasefire and reconciliation talks between Assad and the moderate rebels but not with hardline islamist groups like Isis, Al nursa and other Al Qaeda affiliated groups.

[GeordieSaint]

If you look back through all of my posts you'll see that although I fully support Russia's mission in Syria I strongly oppose the tactic of both Russia and Syria bombing heavily populated areas as it's counterproductive and more seriously a crime.

So we both agree that Putin and Assad have committed war crimes and should be tried for breaking international law as you have accused Blair and Bush having done... ok I'll go with that.

[Guest]

So we both agree that Putin and Assad have committed war crimes and should be tried for breaking international law as you have accused Blair and Bush having done... ok I'll go with that.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with seeing leaders of all nations who bomb heavily populated civilian areas put on trial in The Hague for war crimes as it may make them think twice before dropping bombs but sadly we both know that the leaders of powerful nations like Russia, US, China and UK etc would never be tried and it would just be leaders of poor third world countries.