League Express Podcast 33

[Martyn Sadler]

In this week's episode of the League Express Podcast, Jake Kearnan and I are joined by Rugby League Great Garry Schofield OBE to discuss whether the Challenge Cup has lost its aura, poor attendances and what needs fixing at Hull FC. We also discuss the proposed Championship broadcasting deal, the injury casualty ward in the NRL and the controversy surrounding Wests Tigers playing at Leichardt Oval.

 

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Really enjoying these podcasts, Martyn. Keep it up!

 

In regards to the headline question, my take...

The problem with the Challenge Cup is that its early rounds are compared to SL, thus it looks an inferior version of something we already have. Same teams playing at the same venues in front of lower crowds.

 

I'd have all SL teams (except the champions) entering at round of 32. All seeded away to lower league sides (different venue, different opposition). SL champions have a free weekend to play WCC.

 

All remaining rounds (Ro16, QF, SF, F) played at a neutral venue like Magic Weekend. Gives a fixed date in the calendar, a fixed venue to sell to a new local market, can pool resources together to create a unique event, all can be televised easily with one setup, won't be compared with SL fixtures as it's at a neutral venue, has a low bar set in terms of crowds (did the combined attendance of the last round even break 30k?).

Also gives new life to Magic Weekend and removes an extra loop fixture from the league.

 

I await my invite to a future podcast panel

[Martyn Sadler]

7 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Really enjoying these podcasts, Martyn. Keep it up!

 

In regards to the headline question, my take...

The problem with the Challenge Cup is that its early rounds are compared to SL, thus it looks an inferior version of something we already have. Same teams playing at the same venues in front of lower crowds.

 

I'd have all SL teams (except the champions) entering at round of 32. All seeded away to lower league sides (different venue, different opposition). SL champions have a free weekend to play WCC.

 

All remaining rounds (Ro16, QF, SF, F) played at a neutral venue like Magic Weekend. Gives a fixed date in the calendar, a fixed venue to sell to a new local market, can pool resources together to create a unique event, all can be televised easily with one setup, won't be compared with SL fixtures as it's at a neutral venue, has a low bar set in terms of crowds (did the combined attendance of the last round even break 30k?).

Also gives new life to Magic Weekend and removes an extra loop fixture from the league.

 

I await my invite to a future podcast panel

Thanks for your generous comment.

Plenty of people are trying to work out how to revive the Challenge Cup and I'll be writing about it myself in the near future.

The trouble with your proposal for Super League sides to all play away in the round of 32 is that it conflicts with the underlying ethos of the Cup, which is an open and unrestricted draw.

That would mean that Wigan could draw St Helens in the first round, while in the same round Cornwall could draw Midlands Hurricanes, depending on how the cookie crumbles.

I would be reluctant to depart from that principle as its part of the USP of the Challenge Cup, although we have moved away from it.

I'm sure there's a way to restore its former prestige.

As for joining the podcast, you never know, anything is possible as we build up the audience.

Let me know if there is anyone you would particularly like to see on there with us.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

14 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The trouble with your proposal for Super League sides to all play away in the round of 32 is that it conflicts with the underlying ethos of the Cup, which is an open and unrestricted draw.

That would mean that Wigan could draw St Helens in the first round, while in the same round Cornwall could draw Midlands Hurricanes, depending on how the cookie crumbles.

I would be reluctant to depart from that principle as its part of the USP of the Challenge Cup, although we have moved away from it.

Thanks for the reply Martyn.

To push back a bit on your reply, you've already noted that we've moved away from that. I'm assuming that's in relation to the fact that teams enter the cup at different stages. SL clubs entering in the round of 16 (rather than the ribs of 32 as previously) has killed a lot of the enjoyment of the cup for me, but regardless all teams don't enter at the same stage so it's not entirely open and unrestricted.

I don't think being open and unrestricted is necessarily the main selling point of the cup either. I'd say more people spoke about the fixtures involving SL v Championship clubs this weekend than Leeds v Saints. I'd say the USP is that variety. The CC needs to offer something completely different to that of SL, which is why I proposed the initial round of guaranteeing SL clubs don't meet each other, as well as magic-style neutral grounds thereafter. 

I'd even consider a French-only bracket to the draw to garner interest there. Catalans, Toulouse and two Elite 1 teams at the round of 32, with winners playing each other at round of 16 (just to guarantee only 1 overseas club could make the final and protecting the event from a potential low attended final).

In an ideal world, you'd have all pro clubs ever at the same time (as well amateurs) with an open random draw, but that wouldn't necessary be more attractive, just more "open and unrestricted". Attracting the punters is the number one objective, which is why we've got to offer them something they want to come and pay for. So far they only want to see a Wembley Final (and even that is dying down).

[Wellsy4HullFC]

What did you think of the "neutral venue" proposal out of interest, Martyn?

For arguments sake, if you kept the format the same this year (SL clubs entering at round of 16)...

The combined Last 16 attendance for 6/8 games was 24,028 (Batley and HKR didn't give their attendance). A safe guess would be around 6k combined. The bar is set at about 30k. Surely the clubs aren't making money off that?

Last 10 years Round 6 aggregate attendances:

2023 - 31,650; 2022 - 29,509; 2020 & 2021 - COVID; 2019 - 36,677 (2 big ties); 2018 - 28,748; 2017 - 31,847; 2016 - 26,706; 2015 - 33,597 [average = 31,248]

The Magic Round 1 day attendance is about the same. By going the Magic route, potentially you could double the round attendance, create an event of it that people want to attend, have all games broadcast live and hit a target city.

Or, you could carry on with sub 4k average attendances that make SL clubs look unattractive.

 

In addition, the QFs have had around 25k combined over the last 10 years, only 1 year broke 30k. Less than one day at Magic.

 

I'd say take the show on the road and make it something unique.

[Tommygilf]

On the open draw of the cup too, for a fair few lower division clubs, playing in a half full SL ground is better for them financially than playing at home because of the revenue split rules.

Take Wigan vs Sheffield last weekend, whilst it was a pretty low attendance for the former, for the latter, it was one of the biggest attendances they'll play in front of all year, and is nearly double the capacity of their current home ground. For the likes of Sheffield etc, the financial reward is worth even giving up home advantage.

[Martyn Sadler]

4 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

What did you think of the "neutral venue" proposal out of interest, Martyn?

For arguments sake, if you kept the format the same this year (SL clubs entering at round of 16)...

The combined Last 16 attendance for 6/8 games was 24,028 (Batley and HKR didn't give their attendance). A safe guess would be around 6k combined. The bar is set at about 30k. Surely the clubs aren't making money off that?

Last 10 years Round 6 aggregate attendances:

2023 - 31,650; 2022 - 29,509; 2020 & 2021 - COVID; 2019 - 36,677 (2 big ties); 2018 - 28,748; 2017 - 31,847; 2016 - 26,706; 2015 - 33,597 [average = 31,248]

The Magic Round 1 day attendance is about the same. By going the Magic route, potentially you could double the round attendance, create an event of it that people want to attend, have all games broadcast live and hit a target city.

Or, you could carry on with sub 4k average attendances that make SL clubs look unattractive.

 

In addition, the QFs have had around 25k combined over the last 10 years, only 1 year broke 30k. Less than one day at Magic.

 

I'd say take the show on the road and make it something unique.

I think the idea of converting the Magic Weekend into the Challenge Cup Quarter-Final weekend, with all four ties being played at one venue in one day, has some potential if we could find a venue that would stage it at the required date.

I've proposed this myself in the past.

But it all has to be part of a bigger review of the Challenge Cup.

I take your point about keeping Super League clubs apart from each other in the earlier round, but I think that would detract from the magic of the Cup, which is that it always used to be possible to see big clubs drawn together at that stage and, with one of them being knocked out, it gave other clubs an opportunity to take advantage of their absence in subsequent rounds.

The USP of the Grand Final is that the two best teams will face each other, whereas those same two teams may meet in the first round of the Challenge Cup and one of them will be out. That difference to distinguish the two competitions should be emphasised more than it is.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

9 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

On the open draw of the cup too, for a fair few lower division clubs, playing in a half full SL ground is better for them financially than playing at home because of the revenue split rules.

Take Wigan vs Sheffield last weekend, whilst it was a pretty low attendance for the former, for the latter, it was one of the biggest attendances they'll play in front of all year, and is nearly double the capacity of their current home ground. For the likes of Sheffield etc, the financial reward is worth even giving up home advantage.

At present, only 4 teams will get a hope of that potential cash reward, and only 1 might get it. Wigan v Sheffield only pulled 5k and Leigh v Fev only 4k. The other 2 played at home. Not really groundbreaking.

In my proposal, those same 4 teams (potentially more if someone knocks off a SL side in the proposed earlier round) would all get a guaranteed equal share of a Magic Weekend gate. And all will play in front of a larger crowd in a larger stadium than they usually do that year.

Ticks your boxes.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

6 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I think the idea of converting the Magic Weekend into the Challenge Cup Quarter-Final weekend, with all four ties being played at one venue in one day, has some potential if we could find a venue that would stage it at the required date.

I've proposed this myself in the past.

But it all has to be part of a bigger review of the Challenge Cup.

I agree completely. The CC needs to decide what it wants to be and whether that is an attractive enough proposition. At the moment, it's a series of poorly attended games on a run to a final that is getting more empty every year. We've moved the date several times recently, so it's not the date. That tells me the it's current format is just not capturing the interest of the clubs or supporters.

By making it an RFL promoted event in fixed cities, you're guaranteeing something different.

6 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I take your point about keeping Super League clubs apart from each other in the earlier round, but I think that would detract from the magic of the Cup, which is that it always used to be possible to see big clubs drawn together at that stage and, with one of them being knocked out, it gave other clubs an opportunity to take advantage of their absence in subsequent rounds.

The USP of the Grand Final is that the two best teams will face each other, whereas those same two teams may meet in the first round of the Challenge Cup and one of them will be out. That difference to distinguish the two competitions should be emphasised more than it is.

At present, the big clubs don't even enter at the stage I proposed and haven't for about 10 years, so the chance of a big club being knocked out would actually increase (only slightly).

I take your point about leaving it more open, however I'm torn. In a now fully professional sport, we need to maximise revenue, hence why I suggested Magic Rounds (bigger crowds than combined attendance). Increasing the chance of knocking out your biggest clubs from that initial magic round seemed financial suicide, which is why I leaned on a seeded first round (I was tempted to call it a "qualifying round" but thought that would take too much away!).

The other reason I leaned that way was that personally I found the most magic of the cup came from the top clubs playing the lower league clubs. Increasing the chance of a cup upset would do far more to build the magic than Saints knocking out Leeds early in front of half the attendance of a regular SL game 7 days prior.

At the end of the day, the sport is far different than it was pre-SL, with different goals (finance). An open draw competition may not achieve that goal anymore so we either look to adapt it or wait until it dies.

[Tommygilf]

43 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

At present, only 4 teams will get a hope of that potential cash reward, and only 1 might get it. Wigan v Sheffield only pulled 5k and Leigh v Fev only 4k. The other 2 played at home. Not really groundbreaking.

In my proposal, those same 4 teams (potentially more if someone knocks off a SL side in the proposed earlier round) would all get a guaranteed equal share of a Magic Weekend gate. And all will play in front of a larger crowd in a larger stadium than they usually do that year.

Ticks your boxes.

 

I get all that. I wonder if they will try that ir similar before making it a Group Stage/knockout comp.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

30 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I get all that. I wonder if they will try that ir similar before making it a Group Stage/knockout comp.

I think the only way they'd go that route would be if there were looking to reduce loop fixtures in the league and replace them with this.

I wouldn't mind too much in that again the magic of the cup for me is those matches against teams from a different league. That variety is interesting to me.

I'd rather a 14 team SL to eradicate that issue though.

[Martyn Sadler]

15 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

I agree completely. The CC needs to decide what it wants to be and whether that is an attractive enough proposition. At the moment, it's a series of poorly attended games on a run to a final that is getting more empty every year. We've moved the date several times recently, so it's not the date. That tells me the it's current format is just not capturing the interest of the clubs or supporters.

By making it an RFL promoted event in fixed cities, you're guaranteeing something different.

At present, the big clubs don't even enter at the stage I proposed and haven't for about 10 years, so the chance of a big club being knocked out would actually increase (only slightly).

I take your point about leaving it more open, however I'm torn. In a now fully professional sport, we need to maximise revenue, hence why I suggested Magic Rounds (bigger crowds than combined attendance). Increasing the chance of knocking out your biggest clubs from that initial magic round seemed financial suicide, which is why I leaned on a seeded first round (I was tempted to call it a "qualifying round" but thought that would take too much away!).

The other reason I leaned that way was that personally I found the most magic of the cup came from the top clubs playing the lower league clubs. Increasing the chance of a cup upset would do far more to build the magic than Saints knocking out Leeds early in front of half the attendance of a regular SL game 7 days prior.

At the end of the day, the sport is far different than it was pre-SL, with different goals (finance). An open draw competition may not achieve that goal anymore so we either look to adapt it or wait until it dies.

If there was a completely open draw for 32 clubs that included 12 SL clubs and 20 non-SL clubs, the average draw would include two all-Super League matches, six matches between two non-Super League clubs and eight matches between SL clubs and non-SL clubs, with four each expected to be at the home of the SL and non-SL clubs respectively.

I think that would be a pretty good combination of fixtures for an opening round.

Last night I was at Bradford Bulls and I had the chance to speak to Frank Slevin, the Chair of RL Commercial about the Cup. I'll be continuing that conversation with him next week so I'll be happy to put your thoughts to him as well as my own.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

If there was a completely open draw for 32 clubs that included 12 SL clubs and 20 non-SL clubs, the average draw would include two all-Super League matches, six matches between two non-Super League clubs and eight matches between SL clubs and non-SL clubs, with four each expected to be at the home of the SL and non-SL clubs respectively.

I think that would be a pretty good combination of fixtures for an opening round.

Last night I was at Bradford Bulls and I had the chance to speak to Frank Slevin, the Chair of RL Commercial about the Cup. I'll be continuing that conversation with him next week so I'll be happy to put your thoughts to him as well as my own.

I think we're both in agreement that SL clubs should enter a round earlier (like they used to). I'd be tempted to give the SL champions a bye so there's a free weekend for them to play the WCC.

Enjoyed this conversation, Martyn. Enjoy Easter.