53 replies to this topic

[fragel]

Anybody with a constructive comment to make should ignore the riff raff and feel free to contribute to the topic.

constructive comment for you

stop talking utter cxxp you troll !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bitofaboogie]

Anybody with a constructive comment to make should ignore the riff raff and feel free to contribute to the topic.

The consumption of cheese followed swiftly by ignominious surrender are your only options, I suggest that you take them sooner rather than later Pierre.

[1976PMJwires]

BOAB on form tonight

[dallymessenger]

wigans coach knows how good these players are from his time at the storm

all the players wigan are getting are far better than current imports

wouldnt surprise me to see wigan dominating SL for the next few years with their current coach

[RP London]

right....

even if melbourne off load all these second teir players they will still go well .. watching them on premier sports when the kids come in like Duffie, Justin ONeil, Widdop et al add to that the depth in their forwards and they look fantastic... if the rest are like that they will do just fine, maybe not play off winners first couple of years but they are bascially restarting and they look ok with it..

Wigan cannot sign that many there are limits to how many ussies they can have in the side and how much money they can spend.. so lets not worry about them getting a side full of ex melbourne stars.

Wigan would need to get rid of some of their sh*(t impots and bring in some quality imports.. shame.. that means Tomkins will learn off Finch, other Tomkins can learn off Hinchcliffe, other players can learn off quality rather than learning of poorer imports.. this isnt a bad thing

Dominance of wigan over everyone else.. first lets see what happens teams dont always gel, but has that damaged the NRL with the supposed dominance of melbourne, were peopl saying the NRL is screwed becuase of it (until the cheating reared its head obviously). Leeds have won the last 3 titles, Leeds and Saints have dominaed the league.. so will Wigan taking this over agian do it more damage?

Franchising was meant to help the kids etc.... Frachising was meant to do many things.. one was to encourage using kids rather than buying in over the hill 2nd rate aussies for quick results, it was meant to make teams give youth a chance.. these top class imports will come in to replace these less good imports not supement them so its not less chance for gb stars its the same chance just better imports to play with and learn off.. the quota system is also there to help reduce the imports not just franchising.. if you look at the botto of the table sides there is amuch better spread of young talent rather than imports than there was and that was what franchising was there to help as well asget stadiums sorted and get youth academies sorted etc etc it was meant to do many things but this one change ofsh*t imports for good imports is nota stick to beat franchising with..

right i think thats all off my chest

[The Parksider]

Right....

If you look at the bottom of the table sides there is a much better spread of young talent rather than imports than there was and that was what franchising was there to help as well as get stadiums sorted and get youth academies sorted etc etc it was meant to do many things but this one change of sh*t imports for good imports is not a stick to beat franchising with..

Right I think thats all off my chest

Not too sure where franchising is the devil here RP? The salary cap is the method of preventing dominance, but it can't achieve full parity between clubs if they are not on a par themselves.

If a club does not have the finances to pay full cap then they simply will not start off with the same value of playing squad. Of course one good coach may make more of his poor hand than a bad coach, but SL is pretty much ranked in order of ability to spend full cap.

If a club does not have a vibrant junior set up with kids coming through then they also miss out on having loyal, local rising stars performing well in their team accepting less money than established stars who are no better performers having seen their best years?. What is the value the current crop of Syoung aints players bring to the team against their current salaries?

If a club offers on the field success to a top top import, then when the money offers are pretty much in the same "ball park" that import is likely to choose the winning sides - much less hard work and no great expectations, than for a one off star signing expected to carry an average side.

If you are a Wigan, Leeds or Saints because you have concentrated hard on the youth set up (for years), because you have the set up to generate full cap, and because you have had success as a result and attracted the best imports, you may well dominate the honours. It may well be deserved.

Many current SL clubs are years behind the top three, but most of them have the wherewithall to catch up. For some like Hull Wire and Fartown that may take a few more years yet, for others like Quins, Les Cats and Crusaders it may be a couple of decades. For anyone short on the salary cap it's goodnight.

[RP London]

Not too sure where franchising is the devil here RP? The salary cap is the method of preventing dominance, but it can't achieve full parity between clubs if they are not on a par themselves.

If a club does not have the finances to pay full cap then they simply will not start off with the same value of playing squad. Of course one good coach may make more of his poor hand than a bad coach, but SL is pretty much ranked in order of ability to spend full cap.

If a club does not have a vibrant junior set up with kids coming through then they also miss out on having loyal, local rising stars performing well in their team accepting less money than established stars who are no better performers having seen their best years?. What is the value the current crop of Syoung aints players bring to the team against their current salaries?

If a club offers on the field success to a top top import, then when the money offers are pretty much in the same "ball park" that import is likely to choose the winning sides - much less hard work and no great expectations, than for a one off star signing expected to carry an average side.

If you are a Wigan, Leeds or Saints because you have concentrated hard on the youth set up (for years), because you have the set up to generate full cap, and because you have had success as a result and attracted the best imports, you may well dominate the honours. It may well be deserved.

Many current SL clubs are years behind the top three, but most of them have the wherewithall to catch up. For some like Hull Wire and Fartown that may take a few more years yet, for others like Quins, Les Cats and Crusaders it may be a couple of decades. For anyone short on the salary cap it's goodnight.

parky i know all that.. i was saying it was NOT a stick to beat franchising with..

Jimmy B Post number 5 on this topic was saying that franchising was supposed to stop this but obviously it was just BS from the RFL and they just wanted to get rid of P&R etc etc.. i was pointing out that franchising wasnot there to stop good imports coming along..

[Jimmy B]

parky i know all that.. i was saying it was NOT a stick to beat franchising with..

Jimmy B Post number 5 on this topic was saying that franchising was supposed to stop this but obviously it was just BS from the RFL and they just wanted to get rid of P&R etc etc.. i was pointing out that franchising wasnot there to stop good imports coming along..

As regards more opportunity for developing younger home grown players, surley it is the number of imports playing in our game not the quality.
Replacing, in your words, Sh*t Aussies with beter quality Aussies makes not one iota of dufference as regards first team opportunity for a young player.
I repeat, one of the reasons for franchising, so we were led to believe, was to was to improve the development of home grown youngsters.
Unless we reduce the numbers of imports how can this be ? - Or are you sayng let those clubs at the top of the pyramid who can afford the Aussies have them, and leave the development of future GB internnationals to those who may not be so fortunate financially in the lower half of SL ?

Edited by Jimmy B, 14 July 2010 - 10:14 AM.

[Exiled Wiganer]

A few things on Wigan's position:
1 - players out are likely to be Phelps, Feca, Bailey, Pryce, Piggy, Deacon and possibly Carmont;
2 - Fielden will be on a lot less money;
3 - so, if Wigan sign Lima, Finch and Hoffman (and possibly Quinn), with Hock to come back later in the year they will have fewer overseas players but much better quality ones;
4 - we already have a lot of home grown players, who have indeed forced Bailey, Phelps and Feca into the reserves. We have plenty more where coming through;
5 - Wigan have a long way to go before they can be considered the best team in SL. We may be top of the league, but we are out of the Cup and have not won a semi in 5 attempts. So, even if we become stronger, that may well only bring us up to Leeds and Saints level.
In short, we may well get the best of the Storm's released players, as we have the money (through over spending on Fielden and Feca for example) and the connections. It might make us the strongest team, but might not, and that is certainly far from a foregone conclusion. We are demonstrably heavily reliant on our own player production and show no sign of stopping there.

[RP London]

As regards more opportunity for developing younger home grown players, surley it is the number of imports playing in our game not the quality.
Replacing, in your words, Sh*t Aussies with beter quality Aussies makes not one iota of dufference as regards first team opportunity for a young player.
I repeat, one of the reasons for franchising, so we were led to believe, was to was to improve the development of home grown youngsters.
Unless we reduce the numbers of imports how can this be ? - Or are you sayng let those clubs at the top of the pyramid who can afford the Aussies have them, and leave the development of future GB internnationals to those who may not be so fortunate financially in the lower half of SL ?

no i;m not saying that otherwise quite frankly that is what i would have said..

and i shall repeat (although its very boring) Franchising was brought in for many many reasons.. one was to enable teams to not be affraid to try out the youngsters with fear of relegation.. this is working.. teams at the bottom used to bring in journeymen aussies to try and save them and if they were promoted would do the same to try and stave of relegation the next year.. withfranchising you can finnish bottom every year and not get relegated if you are playing a good bunch of yongsters, your youth strucutre is good and the stadium is good..

the quota system is being reduced but this canot be done in one fell swoop it has to be reduced gradually due to teams haveing contractual agreements in place and it would cost them a fortune to rip them up and send their aussies home.

the point i was making is that i would rather see clubs who are bringing in imports (which they are allowed to do) within their quota bring in quality imports rather than bringing in dross to make up the numbers.. dross that could easily be british dross..

by having the better quality quota players it means our youngsters are learning from some of hte best in the business like hoffman, finch, quinn etc.. and so when those players come through they will be better for it.. there are quite a few youngsters coming thorugh the top teams and they are looking useful, gb internationals in fact.. remember in the past some of our players would have gone over to the NRL in the offseason and learn there.. they dont have that chnce now..

We need foreign players in the game.. i say need i am sure we could do without but the game may not be so good but we certainly dont NEED to be purely british in players, aslong as the foreign players coming into the game add to the teams and to the competition and these players will.. much more so than the journeymen brought over to save clubs from instant relegation.. that is what franchising was going to hlep (again this takes time as contracts take time to run out) but with the help of the salary cap and the Quota.. Fracnchising CANNOT solve everything on its own.

[Rogues Gallery]

Are the Saints rumoured signings of Shenton and LMS not a bigger danger to clubs in that Cas and Quins have spent a lot of time and money developing these players.

I have always maintained that there should be a salary cap dispensation of up to 50% for players brought through a clubs academy system, particularly if they were from their own service are.

[RP London]

Are the Saints rumoured signings of Shenton and LMS not a bigger danger to clubs in that Cas and Quins have spent a lot of time and money developing these players.

I have always maintained that there should be a salary cap dispensation of up to 50% for players brought through a clubs academy system, particularly if they were from their own service are.

i woudl say yes becuase although wigan are being made strnger by these players being brought in (arguably) it is not at the expense of someone else..

however, this sort of movement is acceptable as its a brit to a brit..

LMS going to Saints would be great for the quins academy in a way as it shows how good he has become to go to someone like Saints.. i just hope if he did go he would get game time that would helpo him progress and that quins can bring someone else through to replace him.

[Jimmy B]

no i;m not saying that otherwise quite frankly that is what i would have said..

and i shall repeat (although its very boring) Franchising was brought in for many many reasons.. one was to enable teams to not be affraid to try out the youngsters with fear of relegation.. this is working.. teams at the bottom used to bring in journeymen aussies to try and save them and if they were promoted would do the same to try and stave of relegation the next year.. withfranchising you can finnish bottom every year and not get relegated if you are playing a good bunch of yongsters, your youth strucutre is good and the stadium is good..

the quota system is being reduced but this canot be done in one fell swoop it has to be reduced gradually due to teams haveing contractual agreements in place and it would cost them a fortune to rip them up and send their aussies home.

the point i was making is that i would rather see clubs who are bringing in imports (which they are allowed to do) within their quota bring in quality imports rather than bringing in dross to make up the numbers.. dross that could easily be british dross..

by having the better quality quota players it means our youngsters are learning from some of hte best in the business like hoffman, finch, quinn etc.. and so when those players come through they will be better for it.. there are quite a few youngsters coming thorugh the top teams and they are looking useful, gb internationals in fact.. remember in the past some of our players would have gone over to the NRL in the offseason and learn there.. they dont have that chnce now..

We need foreign players in the game.. i say need i am sure we could do without but the game may not be so good but we certainly dont NEED to be purely british in players, aslong as the foreign players coming into the game add to the teams and to the competition and these players will.. much more so than the journeymen brought over to save clubs from instant relegation.. that is what franchising was going to hlep (again this takes time as contracts take time to run out) but with the help of the salary cap and the Quota.. Fracnchising CANNOT solve everything on its own.

What is the present quota level and what is the programme for it's reduction ?
As overseas contracts expire surely they should not be replced by new overseas players - if we are serious at reducing imports.
I do agree that overseas players can be an asset but I would limit it to one per club - providing that player is a current international.
We have seen so much money thrown at countless Aussies in the twilight of their careers, over here for a working holiday to boost their retirement fund.

[RP London]

What is the present quota level and what is the programme for it's reduction ?
As overseas contracts expire surely they should not be replced by new overseas players - if we are serious at reducing imports.
I do agree that overseas players can be an asset but I would limit it to one per club - providing that player is a current international.
We have seen so much money thrown at countless Aussies in the twilight of their careers, over here for a working holiday to boost their retirement fund.

last sentence i think we would all agree on and which is why it is changing..

cant remember the exact numbers but it is coming down by 1-2 a year.. its being done by the having to have x federation trained players, y youth academy etc..

problem is you cannot do the "once their contract is over you cant replace them" becuase that damages potentially a club (and certainly means they are playing to a different set of rules) that uses short term contracts because they do not want to be left with dud players for too long.

[The Parksider]

I repeat, one of the reasons for franchising, so we were led to believe, was to was to improve the development of home grown youngsters.Unless we reduce the numbers of imports how can this be ?

We are reducing the number of imports, but the best imports will still sign for the top clubs..........

Only a draft will spead imports evenly.

[Jimmy B]

Are the Saints rumoured signings of Shenton and LMS not a bigger danger to clubs in that Cas and Quins have spent a lot of time and money developing these players.

I have always maintained that there should be a salary cap dispensation of up to 50% for players brought through a clubs academy system, particularly if they were from their own service are.

Smaller clubs have always, in my lifetime of watching the game (over 50 years), been financially bullied by the more wealthy into parting with star players. Its tough.
My own club can provide an extensive list of players, often home grown, who have been develped, some to GB level, and then taken from us in their prime. Often we had to do it to survive and fair enough we got a sometimes bumper transfer fee, but I have no sympathy for any club who loose players to bigger clubs. Cas. took one of our star players not to long ago and they would do so to anyother club if it suited and they had the money.

[Jimmy B]

We are reducing the number of imports, but the best imports will still sign for the top clubs..........

Only a draft will spead imports evenly.

So can you tell me what the present quota of imports is - and what is the programme set down for reducing it ?

[The Parksider]

So can you tell me what the present quota of imports is - and what is the programme set down for reducing it ?

Sorry Jim - not easily off the top of my head.

It's a season by season reduction of about one a year and as RP London says (I sometimes listen to you )
it's a gredual weaning of the clubs off imports and a time lapse enabling clubs to improve youth set ups.

Jim - I'm not sure wealthier clubs take less wealthy clubs players. These are all professionals free to sign wherever they want.

The reality is it's the amateur clubs who find and develop the players and the semi pro and pro game "take" them from their clubs, with little recompense.

[Jimmy B]

Sorry Jim - not easily off the top of my head.

It's a season by season reduction of about one a year and as RP London says (I sometimes listen to you )
it's a gredual weaning of the clubs off imports and a time lapse enabling clubs to improve youth set ups.

Jim - I'm not sure wealthier clubs take less wealthy clubs players. These are all professionals free to sign wherever they want.

The reality is it's the amateur clubs who find and develop the players and the semi pro and pro game "take" them from their clubs, with little recompense.

1) No and neither can anyone else - the cynic in me says it was just BS to get P7R scrapped and will be forgotten.

3) Lets not put a ploy on words - of course players can sign for anyone they want, but if they are lured from club A to club B with the promise of a pay day that club A cannot match, then club B has, O.K, "taken" them away from club B. I have never blamed a player for following the bigger money - far from it, but I was merely pointing out that it has happened forever in my time of watching RL.

4) Yes in this modern age Junior clubs do nurture the yougsters from a very early age with a disgusting amount of recompense, but in the days of not so long ago such junior set ups did not exist on the scale they do now. For instance in my area and in my teenage years any one who had ambitions of playing RL at a professional level went training initially with the under 17's - progressing to under 19's. My club signed many players from this age group not amatuer RL. So in those days you could say it was the schools who first developed the young Rugby players with no recompense at all.

[ParisSurtout]

Update on the Melbourne Storm offloads:

http://www.smh.com.a...0714-10b47.html

Looks like England's Gareth Widdop is being groomed for the high profile No 6 jersey at the Melbourne Storm.

Wigan still look like they are getting the pick of the sale merchandise.