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The Kiwis should be favorites for the Four Nations


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#41 L Bow

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Posted 06 September 2010 - 10:47 PM

QUOTE (roughyedspud @ Sep 4 2010, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
can you all stop putting the kiwis up there with australia!!!!


they beat australia as often as we do...and england & kiwi games are generally 50/50 games



Really? I can't recall our world cup win or tri-nations win in the last 10 years.

#42 RP London

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 09:04 AM

my opinion and mine only is that its a proper 3 way this time around..

Australia are always good but perhaps not as strong with the unjuries they have this time around
New Zealand look good but depends if they turn up or not..

England.. when was the last time our pack got dominated? yes we are without Peacock but that is one player, we still have graham and morely leading the line with then a couple of inform (one would hope) players coming in too if its LMS then by god he has to prove himself as he will next year and this may make a big difference, he looks good at quins, how good could he be with the right support around him etc. we will not be dominated IMO
the 3/4 line got us to the final last time around and arguably will be stronger this year becuase they are a year older, we have otpions at fullback, Atkins has looked good this year, bridge too and shenton so there is competition in the centres etc...
Personally england could balls this up like they did last time in aus, mcnamara could ###### it up BUT to right them off now becuase we have seen a good but not sh*t scarey nz team is just daft (but i'm not shocked).. i[ve watched a lot of the NRL this year, and the games are intense but none of theplayers in the NZ team bar Isaac Luke and Benji make me tremble.

#43 Dave T

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 09:55 AM

QUOTE (RP London @ Sep 7 2010, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
my opinion and mine only is that its a proper 3 way this time around..

Australia are always good but perhaps not as strong with the unjuries they have this time around
New Zealand look good but depends if they turn up or not..

England.. when was the last time our pack got dominated? yes we are without Peacock but that is one player, we still have graham and morely leading the line with then a couple of inform (one would hope) players coming in too if its LMS then by god he has to prove himself as he will next year and this may make a big difference, he looks good at quins, how good could he be with the right support around him etc. we will not be dominated IMO
the 3/4 line got us to the final last time around and arguably will be stronger this year becuase they are a year older, we have otpions at fullback, Atkins has looked good this year, bridge too and shenton so there is competition in the centres etc...
Personally england could balls this up like they did last time in aus, mcnamara could ###### it up BUT to right them off now becuase we have seen a good but not sh*t scarey nz team is just daft (but i'm not shocked).. i[ve watched a lot of the NRL this year, and the games are intense but none of theplayers in the NZ team bar Isaac Luke and Benji make me tremble.
Good post, and I agree with much of this, in terms of the merits of the England team at least, as I have seen very little of the NRL.

As you say, the three-quarters are much better than they previously were in past years, as are the halves, so this can only be a good thing and move us in the right direction. I'd also hope that we have learnt from the WC and last year's 4N (which was very positive let's not forget).

Edited by Dave T, 07 September 2010 - 09:57 AM.


#44 boxhead

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 10:23 AM

It does not really matter at this level about pack domination.
Packs do not win games on their own.
If a pack sets up a platform and the backs do not have the strike power it does not really matter.
You have to score more points at the end of the day.


#45 Dave T

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 10:32 AM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 7 2010, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It does not really matter at this level about pack domination.
Packs do not win games on their own.
If a pack sets up a platform and the backs do not have the strike power it does not really matter.
You have to score more points at the end of the day.

I think the point was more that if you play the Aussies or Kiwis and your pack is poor then you will get trampled as their backs will get on top. We shouldn't have that issue really, and if the forward battle is even then it can become a battle of the backs. If that is the case, the Aussies will probably win, but if we can get on top, it makes it difficult for their backs to get a roll on.

I do agree though that in previous years we have been on top at times and not been able to turn ths into points, hopefully this is where our new backline can click.

#46 boxhead

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Sep 7 2010, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the point was more that if you play the Aussies or Kiwis and your pack is poor then you will get trampled as their backs will get on top. We shouldn't have that issue really, and if the forward battle is even then it can become a battle of the backs. If that is the case, the Aussies will probably win, but if we can get on top, it makes it difficult for their backs to get a roll on.

I do agree though that in previous years we have been on top at times and not been able to turn ths into points, hopefully this is where our new backline can click.



You hoping its a close game wrestle then Dave.
An open game on nearly summer pitches will be a fast open game where power and pace will decide the contest.
England need a game that pins Oz and NZ down in their quarter with kicks and chases, that has not been the strong suite in recent times.
I think Oz will play an expansive game where after a grind in the forwards they will push their running Second Rowers out wide (Thaiday, Gallen and Watmough perhaps) to run at the England playmakers and punch holes in the line.
The backs to spread it around and isolate English defenders one on one where a player like Hayne or Slater will be hard to stop.

I hope for the games sake its a tight contest and Oz and England are in the Final.

#47 scotthouston2008

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 11:19 AM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 7 2010, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You hoping its a close game wrestle then Dave.
An open game on nearly summer pitches will be a fast open game where power and pace will decide the contest.
England need a game that pins Oz and NZ down in their quarter with kicks and chases, that has not been the strong suite in recent times.
I think Oz will play an expansive game where after a grind in the forwards they will push their running Second Rowers out wide (Thaiday, Gallen and Watmough perhaps) to run at the England playmakers and punch holes in the line.
The backs to spread it around and isolate English defenders one on one where a player like Hayne or Slater will be hard to stop.

I hope for the games sake its a tight contest and Oz and England are in the Final.


Thaiday and gallen have been awesome this year. Pretty sure watmough isnt in the squad though? ohmy.gif
he's awesome but perhaps not had the best season. Big dave taylor is in though and he's a handful!

#48 boxhead

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 11:43 AM

QUOTE (scotthouston2008 @ Sep 7 2010, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thaiday and gallen have been awesome this year. Pretty sure watmough isnt in the squad though? ohmy.gif
he's awesome but perhaps not had the best season. Big dave taylor is in though and he's a handful!


Australian have only named their train on squad from teams not contesting the final 8.
Watmough and Manly are still in the play offs.



#49 scotthouston2008

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 11:45 AM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 7 2010, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Australian have only named their train on squad from teams not contesting the final 8.
Watmough and Manly are still in the play offs.


ohhh i see. thanks for clearing that up wink.gif

#50 jim_57

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 12:40 PM

QUOTE (petero @ Sep 6 2010, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Firstly if I may: Hannibal ; shut up! You are embarrassing.

Jim, SKD would certainly be in the England squad where he elegible and thats a fact?

You are absolutely correct on Shentons defensive efforts in the 2010 4N, he was superb and yes it was only after he left the field that OZ began to make any inroads in the final.
Not many have given Inglis a start, chased him down and made the tackle, once he was in the clear! Let's not forget Shenton did that and did it well.

I absolutely concur with your comment on Lee Smith: never at centre!!
I would not even allow him to carry the boots for the other's as his positional sense is pathetic. Strong on the wing and a pretty impressive finisher too but International class, well diplomatically, I reserve that judgement.

On your last comment; there's nothing at all delusional about praising both the Aussies and the Kiwi's players, they are in general, individually and most certainly collectively, with a few notable exceptions, superior to ours, its possible that even Hannibal would find it difficult to argue that point?

I don't hold with the supermen accolade, but I can recognise better when I see it.
Their entire game is much better structured and more entertaining, the defence over there is so consistently solid and easy matches are almost nil,N/Queensland apart possibly.

Whereas we have at least 7 of the 14 S/L sides that cannot be relied upon to turn up consistently.


I agree that SKD would be in the centre spot for England but still maintain that I think Shenton is better, apparently that means I think he's a bad player rolleyes.gif

I am an Aussie and I'll give praise where it's due, I just don't think massive raps were justified on Kenny-Dowell, he's a finisher and not a great attacking centre like Inglis, Falou or Lyon etc. He still has a lot of development in him, could be a great player in a few years time.

Certainly agree with the rest of what you've said, the NRL's intensity is in a League of it's own and Super League really needs to strive towards that level of competitivness. That doesn't mean all NRL players are better than their English equivalent though IMO, Burgess and Ellis and to an extent Flanagan have proved that. Ellis and Burgess are two of the top five back rowers in the World and Flanagan played more games in half a year at the Tigers then he did in years at Wigan. England just needs to hope a few backs head over there in coming years, certainly plenty of players that could handle it. Some one I'd like to see:

Sam Tomkins
Michael Shenton
Tom Briscoe
Richard Owen
Ben Jones-Bishop
Kyle Eastmond

Always couldn't hurt to get a few more forwards over here. In particular if Perth get back in 2013 I think they should/will go after a couple of Englishmen. Sam & Joel Tomkins would be a publicity boom after the sucess of Englishmen in recent years. Burgess' parents live on the West Coast too from what I've heard so Luke, George, Tom and Sam may all be in the sights of the Reds,

QUOTE (scotthouston2008 @ Sep 7 2010, 12:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
http://www.smh.com.a...0904-14v1l.html

SKD in nrl team of the year ahead of inglis, jennings, lyon.............

terrible player.


rolleyes.gif wow. I said IMO Shenton is better, did I ever claim SKD was a "terrible player"? Comprehension isn't your strong point.

#51 Dave T

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 12:49 PM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 7 2010, 12:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You hoping its a close game wrestle then Dave.
An open game on nearly summer pitches will be a fast open game where power and pace will decide the contest.
England need a game that pins Oz and NZ down in their quarter with kicks and chases, that has not been the strong suite in recent times.
I think Oz will play an expansive game where after a grind in the forwards they will push their running Second Rowers out wide (Thaiday, Gallen and Watmough perhaps) to run at the England playmakers and punch holes in the line.
The backs to spread it around and isolate English defenders one on one where a player like Hayne or Slater will be hard to stop.

I hope for the games sake its a tight contest and Oz and England are in the Final.
Nope, not at all, I don't want a close game wrestle, but even in an open game, your forwards need to make the yards. Not sure if you saw the CC Final, but Warrington played with some flair and scored some nice tries, but the forwards needed to lay the platform and that is all I am saying. Our forwards wouldn't have scored enough points to beat Leeds had w ekept it tight, so I am a big fan of moving the ball once the forwards have done their work, something which I feel we have got wrong at Test level for a while now. We have tried to hang on, when I'd rather see us have a bit of a go and move the ball out.

We have seen quite often (usually against the Kiwis who tend to bottle it less) that the Aussies are human, and put under pressure they will make mistakes, the WC Final being a perfect example of it. If we don't move the ball enough though and isolate players and put them into 1on1 situations, then the chances of them making a mistake is drastically reduced.


#52 RP London

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:05 PM

QUOTE (AndyCapp @ Sep 7 2010, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You hoping its a close game wrestle then Dave.
An open game on nearly summer pitches will be a fast open game where power and pace will decide the contest.
England need a game that pins Oz and NZ down in their quarter with kicks and chases, that has not been the strong suite in recent times.
I think Oz will play an expansive game where after a grind in the forwards they will push their running Second Rowers out wide (Thaiday, Gallen and Watmough perhaps) to run at the England playmakers and punch holes in the line.
The backs to spread it around and isolate English defenders one on one where a player like Hayne or Slater will be hard to stop.

I hope for the games sake its a tight contest and Oz and England are in the Final.


on any pitch it is hard to do anything if your forwards are being knocked backwards and you have no platform. If your forwards are going forwards and getting quick play the balls you get to control the pace of the game.. Like Dave i dont think we have done this right i the past and IMO taken the extra drive rather than releasing the backs as the aussies or kiwis would do. We dominate for periods but never make teams pay.. but without the forwards giving you that platfrom even the aussies would struggle to build much off it.

#53 RP London

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:05 PM

dp

Edited by RP London, 07 September 2010 - 01:08 PM.


#54 RP London

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:05 PM

triple post

Edited by RP London, 07 September 2010 - 01:08 PM.


#55 RP London

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:08 PM

what the hell just happened thats 4!

Edited by RP London, 07 September 2010 - 01:08 PM.


#56 scotthouston2008

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE (jim_57 @ Sep 7 2010, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree that SKD would be in the centre spot for England but still maintain that I think Shenton is better, apparently that means I think he's a bad player rolleyes.gif

I am an Aussie and I'll give praise where it's due, I just don't think massive raps were justified on Kenny-Dowell, he's a finisher and not a great attacking centre like Inglis, Falou or Lyon etc. He still has a lot of development in him, could be a great player in a few years time.

Certainly agree with the rest of what you've said, the NRL's intensity is in a League of it's own and Super League really needs to strive towards that level of competitivness. That doesn't mean all NRL players are better than their English equivalent though IMO, Burgess and Ellis and to an extent Flanagan have proved that. Ellis and Burgess are two of the top five back rowers in the World and Flanagan played more games in half a year at the Tigers then he did in years at Wigan. England just needs to hope a few backs head over there in coming years, certainly plenty of players that could handle it. Some one I'd like to see:

Sam Tomkins
Michael Shenton
Tom Briscoe
Richard Owen
Ben Jones-Bishop
Kyle Eastmond

Always couldn't hurt to get a few more forwards over here. In particular if Perth get back in 2013 I think they should/will go after a couple of Englishmen. Sam & Joel Tomkins would be a publicity boom after the sucess of Englishmen in recent years. Burgess' parents live on the West Coast too from what I've heard so Luke, George, Tom and Sam may all be in the sights of the Reds,



rolleyes.gif wow. I said IMO Shenton is better, did I ever claim SKD was a "terrible player"? Comprehension isn't your strong point.


my point is shenton would not make an impact in the nrl, and would not get near that team of the year so he isn't better!

#57 Lee

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (East Coast Tiger @ Sep 6 2010, 05:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Looks likes Matai will be out for at least some of the tournament after his effort yesterday.


Make that all the tournament, 7 game ban for the swinging arm



A lot of Yorkshiremen believe that when God created the world, he made it with perfect balance.
He balanced the hot areas with the cold areas. the dry areas with the wet areas.
And, in creating Yorkshire, he created the most glorious place on earth - full of majestic beauty and sporting giants.........and for balance he created....... Lancashire.

#58 petero

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 07:52 PM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Sep 7 2010, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good post, and I agree with much of this, in terms of the merits of the England team at least, as I have seen very little of the NRL.

As you say, the three-quarters are much better than they previously were in past years, as are the halves, so this can only be a good thing and move us in the right direction. I'd also hope that we have learnt from the WC and last year's 4N (which was very positive let's not forget).



The one you refer to Dave is a poor post, you can be pardoned for your agreement if as you say you" have seen very little of the NRL this term".

Should anyone be in any doubt as to when our forwards were last beaten: how about the 4 Nations final last year?

OK it took 60+ minutes, plus the injury to Shenton, to see that come about.
Yet in all honesty isn't the consensus generally that the backs cannot operate in the ascendency without the domination that the forwards provide, in ANY R/L game ?
I am sorry to say it but we are delusional in repeating the statement that our forwards have rarely been beaten, if that were accurate in itself we would have shared the honours of test match meetings with the Aussies over the past 40 or so years.
We have not done so and only occasionaly have we achieved that distinction and won against them.

I do not mean to denigrate our players but I do intend to make the point that statements of this nature are simply not factual and do not, nor can they, stand up to scrutiny.

It is not my intention to put our lads down I do hope we go and win the comp, but if anyone is in the frame of mind that we have only the Oz backs to master then they are deluding themselves, yet again.
The forwards they WILL field are more than capable of holding their own and, the Kiwi's are also a threat well above what is being imagined by people on here.

#59 Dave T

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 08:42 PM

QUOTE (petero @ Sep 7 2010, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The one you refer to Dave is a poor post, you can be pardoned for your agreement if as you say you" have seen very little of the NRL this term".

Should anyone be in any doubt as to when our forwards were last beaten: how about the 4 Nations final last year?

OK it took 60+ minutes, plus the injury to Shenton, to see that come about.
Yet in all honesty isn't the consensus generally that the backs cannot operate in the ascendency without the domination that the forwards provide, in ANY R/L game ?
I am sorry to say it but we are delusional in repeating the statement that our forwards have rarely been beaten, if that were accurate in itself we would have shared the honours of test match meetings with the Aussies over the past 40 or so years.
We have not done so and only occasionaly have we achieved that distinction and won against them.

I do not mean to denigrate our players but I do intend to make the point that statements of this nature are simply not factual and do not, nor can they, stand up to scrutiny.

It is not my intention to put our lads down I do hope we go and win the comp, but if anyone is in the frame of mind that we have only the Oz backs to master then they are deluding themselves, yet again.
The forwards they WILL field are more than capable of holding their own and, the Kiwi's are also a threat well above what is being imagined by people on here.

My reference to it being a good post was purely based on the views of the England team rather than the overall post.

I also don't agre with the fact that our forwards were done in the 4N final. I would agree that by the time the Aussies got in the game we should have had more points and been having them pinned in the corners, forcing more mistakes. The forwards were making the territory, but we weren't as clinical in the backs as we should have been.

We can win territory for 60m, and our backs were ruthless enough to get 16 points, the Aussies can have a purple patch for 20 minutes, and they can put 30-40 on you. There will always be spells in the game when the Aussies get their spell, and there is an argument that their forwards stayed in the game for longer, but I think this was easier as their backs helped them get on a roll. England's forwards could make great yards, and then not finish it off, meaning that the Aussies are coming straight back at them. Had we been more clinical and turning them round more (the backs job IMHO) then it would hav been more difficult for their forwards to turn the game round and claw themselves back into it.

We have seen this in a couple of crucial games against the Kiwis, namely the TriNations final and the WC Final.

#60 boxhead

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 12:38 AM

QUOTE (Dave T @ Sep 7 2010, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My reference to it being a good post was purely based on the views of the England team rather than the overall post.

I also don't agre with the fact that our forwards were done in the 4N final. I would agree that by the time the Aussies got in the game we should have had more points and been having them pinned in the corners, forcing more mistakes. The forwards were making the territory, but we weren't as clinical in the backs as we should have been.

We can win territory for 60m, and our backs were ruthless enough to get 16 points, the Aussies can have a purple patch for 20 minutes, and they can put 30-40 on you. There will always be spells in the game when the Aussies get their spell, and there is an argument that their forwards stayed in the game for longer, but I think this was easier as their backs helped them get on a roll. England's forwards could make great yards, and then not finish it off, meaning that the Aussies are coming straight back at them. Had we been more clinical and turning them round more (the backs job IMHO) then it would hav been more difficult for their forwards to turn the game round and claw themselves back into it.

We have seen this in a couple of crucial games against the Kiwis, namely the TriNations final and the WC Final.



Problem is Dave the backs only scored 1 of those 3 tries and it was the same in the first encounter.
6 tries in 2 games with 4 tries from the forwards and 2 from the backs.
It wont be enough points unless there is a better game plan and performance.





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