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I don't get this management speak. What does a team need to 'bring'? What does a team need to 'add'? What are these mystical 'criteria' that need to be met? Who are all these multi billion dollar companies waiting to pump money into the game if only teams with exotic names are playing?

In football, many people embrace the smaller teams getting promoted to Super League. For instance Huddersfield, Blackpool, Bradford, etc. They even want the "underdog" to go on and win the Premier League i.e Leicester and Blackburn. Featherstone may get a chance to play in the top division - this is an incredible story and achievement for many reasons. The trade papers would love to hear the story of how the club keeps fighting and proving people wrong. The club has come a long way and has a great opportunity. The dream is alive again (maybe for this week only), but it feels amazing.

I have to agree. My personal preference is that TWP make it, but if Fev make it, then great and good on them. They will have done a great job in a competitive league against the odds. Sometimes we should enjoy the sport for what it is. Hope for a cracker on Saturday either way.

I didn’t place a laughing Emoji for 2 reasons. One, it is purile and, two, because I know I will not get anything of substance from Parksider. I supported the introduction of Toronto as I am pig sick of RL/SL doing the same old thing but expecting a different outcome. I am pig sick of Chairmen at clubs who believe that they are succeeding by just keeping their heads above water, or thinking that they are Bill Gatesesque by sinking slower than their rivals. I am pig sick of clubs supporting a Salary Cap that has barely change over the years that in essence rewards mediocrity. And all this IMHO is because the game refuses to change or is scared to change. I have no issue with someone having an alternate view. In fact I prefer to debate against an opposing view as it is certainly more stimulating than just nodding in agreement. Over the years Parksider has continually asked those who support Toronto’s inclusion to ‘state the benefit that Toronto will bring to SL’. Well as you say in your above post it is literally a ‘suck it and see’ as none of us can predict if Toronto will be a success or failure. Also no one can predict if every other SL team will be thriving in 10 years. Bradford being the prime example. But, I and many others, have frequently asked Parksider as to how does he see SL flourishing if the game does not embrace clubs like Toronto and heaven forbid retracts to a 10 team league which he is fond of quoting. He has never provided an answer so that is why IMHO there is nothing of substance in his posts.

Let me preface this by saying (for the avoidance of off-topic spam) that I firmly believe that whoever wins next weeks decider should be in SL in 2020. Having said that, I'm interested to know what the game plan would be for Featherstone should they happen to win next week? 1. PLAYERS I understand from comments on this forum that Fev have about 10-12 of their own players signed for next season. I think we can assume that some of those would not wish to convert to full time, meaning that you might have, say, 6-8 players ready for 2020. Given that most of the recruiting has already happened for next season, where would you get sufficient players of a good standard to create a squad of 23-26 players? 2. DUAL REG Obviously you cannot DR with teams in the same division (I believe that is the rule), so you'd be presumably looking at perhaps getting a few loan players? We already know that Leeds will be running Reserves as well as first team next season, so how likely is it that Leeds (or anyone else) will have players that they will want tied into long-term loan deals? So, again, where will you get the players that you would undoubtedly need? 3. CROWDS Someone said on another thread that they thought Fev would 'easy' get 6-7K crowds in SL. Why? The average this season has been 2304, virtually the same as it has been for a few years. By comparison Wakefield averaged 5468 and Castleford 7253. Are there there really another 4-5K latent RL fans floating around the Wakefield MDC who are just waiting for Featherstone to get into SL? 4. LONG TERM VISION Is it just about Featherstone 'having a crack' for a season and then returning back to their (possibly) natural level. Or do the club have a long term strategy for being a permanent feature in SL. What are the plans for an Academy? Reserves? Sponsors? Community Engagement? How do they plan to grow their business to create a sustainable future in SL? Genuinely, I'm not asking these questions to create trouble or troll people. As I said, if Fev win next win, good luck to them, they'll have done what was required by the rules of the competition and should be promoted. But I'm puzzled about how they see they long-term future, given the pretty obvious (and oft-mentioned) factors that simply can't be avoided when we talk about Featherstone. Hopefully, the Featherstone fans will come on this thread and engage in good debate rather than just attacking me ?

If Featherstone win they deserve to go up. They didn't make the competition rules and they have a decent stadium and passionate fans. It is a club close to my heart and I would be happy if they lived within their means and gave it a crack. If they go straight back down with only a few wins then that is sport. What would make me sad is if they tried some #### or bust overspend to try and be ultra competitive. This never ends well and it could knock the club back a decade. Maybe the SL should have more stringent rules about resources, long term planning, facilties, player recruitment, juniors, reserves etc. At the moment it is a mess, that is not Featherstone's fault. I would be excited to see TWP go up simply because I want a wider geographical spread for RL. If Fev knock them off it is not the end of the world and it would be one helluva story in its own right.

What if, and it is a compromise, IF Fev win on Saturday they change their name to Barcelona but decide to play all their games at Featherstone? This way the expansionists get a fancy name in Super League and the traditionalists get to watch proper rugby in a proper traditional setting. There are currently other teams not playing in the town of their name so why not Barcelona?

Agreed . We put the onus back on the pitch - where it should be , and then we go into deep n meaningful mode wondering why we’re doing that if the ‘ wrong ‘ team wins ! If Fev win they’ve earned it through performance and earned their shot like any side in any sport . That’s what we introduced so that’s it . They don’t need to ‘ bring ‘anything other than their right to compete which they’ve won through performance as per the rules !

Exactly this. Imagine football fans going "What will Sheffield United bring to the Premier League?" it just shows how low rent our sport is! Who are these hypothetical fans who are suddenly going to be interested in a sport because a team from Toronto get promoted over Featherstone? The only new fans watching Super League next year would be those in Toronto. If Toronto suddenly established a cricket team to complete in the County Championship, I wouldn't suddenly start watching cricket.

Good questions these, that I'm sure a lot of Fev fans have also been asking themselves. Fundamental for me is the long-term security of the club. Mark Campbell and Davide Longo seem to have been steering a steady ship for a while, and I hope that if we do get into Super League, we have the plans in place not to go the boom-and-bust route of others. Having said that, I'm absolutely buzzing about the idea of little old Fev in Super League, so it's difficult not to get giddy! Let me have a go at answering your points: 1. PLAYERS I'm sure most of our part-time players will want to stay on a part-time contract in the event of promotion. 2. DUAL REG I'd hope we can use our connections with Leeds to secure a few long-term loans. I'd hazard a guess that some on the periphery of the Leeds first team, when offered a year in the Leeds reserves or a year with us, would go for the latter as it would improve their game more playing SL week in week out. 3. CROWDS I reckon we could realistically aim for 4-5k. We got 3.5k for the Toronto game last season, with almost zero away support. That to me says that there are at least an extra 1k fans out there on top of our usual 2.5k who would be willing to come out to see bigger clubs play at POR. 4. LONG TERM VISION I'd love us be a long-term fixture of Super League, but right how I'd be happy with a year like London have had, giving the league a good go and securing some famous victories, without going bust.

In the unlikely event that Featherstone do win promotion, I hope some of you lot trumpeting Toronto as the saviours of rugby league won't mind forfeiting your own club's Super League status and giving it to the Wolfpack for the good of the game.

Toronto because they finished top and have been the most consistent team for the past two seasons. They are also by far the stronger team and squad and are best equipped for Super League.

They are good questions and it's valid to ask. Even though I'm a Fev fan I'll try and answer them objectively. Players - This is the most difficult aspect to me. As you rightly point out, we would need to convert a fair few from PT to FT, and it wouldn't be for everyone I'm sure. The most obvious thing they could do is try and sign the Leeds DR guys - Golding and Albert would be available I'm sure and it may be possible to get McLelland/Sutcliffe on loan. Loans from other SL teams is another obvious avenue although you dont always get the right quality when loaning from the same division. There might be some signings from dare I say it, Toronto, if they miss out and there would be an obvious influx from Australia I would imagine. It certainly wouldn't be easy but the 5 guys who we have already signed are decent quality and would convert to FT if they aren't already. I think a good number of the existing guys would want a crack at it too. You can always go back to your career but it might be the only chance some of them get at a SL gig. DR - obviously wont happen and players would need to come from elsewhere. DR only provides 4 players anyway so the hole might not be as big as it seems. Crowds - I think the average would be more like 4-5000. There would be some decent gates in derbys and against the big boys and a few bigger ones at the beginning too. I don't think crowds would be the problem, especially in the first season. Long Term - Mark Campbell has had his eye on SL for a good few years now. We were in a good position for a licence until licencing stopped. We've improved the ground, have good sponsorships and income streams and have the land the we are looking to monetize. Theres a good chance Fev would go straight back down but I think the club is set up to become established if they can get a foothold in that first year. The biggest issue is the squad and likely the coach leaving to be Leeds assistant. Hopefully if we do go up he'll stay but its seems like hes going. To be honest I doubt we'll win on Saturday anyway so it's likely to be a moot point but one thing is for sure, there isn't a fan who doesn't want to get there and even though most people acknowledge it would be a struggle I think most fair minded fans of all clubs would be happy to see us give it a shot if we earned it on the field.

I hope that Toronto get promoted on Saturday. That's not because of anything against Featherstone, simply because they have been the most consistent team in the Championship for the last two years and I believe deserve their chance. Far more than side that finished in 5th. Saying that, Featherstone have come so far this year. Was it only last year that they were struggling to field a 17? Ryan Carr has done a wonderful job. It has been a brilliant end of season run and great to watch them play and dominate in the last few weeks in the play offs. If Featherstone come up, then you can only praise an incredible play off run. Yes, they will be vastly underprepared for Super League, but in some ways that's the entertainment of it. The Featherstone fans could never have even dreamed of this at the start of the season and now it is a distinct possibility. That is one of the benefits of removing the glass ceiling. Fans of clubs like Featherstone can be allowed to dream again. If they come up, they will be favourites to go down again. London have shown that it is possible to compete with low budgets and resources and Featherstone would no doubt use them as inspiration if they can win on Saturday.

Win or lose next week you have already had a season of memories that will last you a long time. I think you will pull it off and then who knows what the future will bring. A lot of people are predicting a one off season in SL, but I disagree. I think you have the systems in place toassemble a good enough squad for SL. Look where you were at the end of last season.What a transformation. All the very best wishes for next week.

Fair doos to Feb, but let's stand the question on its head for a minute. The 11 remaining clubs will be delighted to see Fev in SL... because they would expect them to go straight down. But if TWP with its backers goes up, well the relegation bun fight will definitely hot up. Someone established might go down.

The plan is their problem if they win. Win on the field, get promoted. Atleast I hope that is the case for both teams

Like I said Harry it is a different sporting culture in North America. Soccer tried for years to go with your "organic" growth method. Ultimately they realised that professional teams had to be at the top of the tree for the sport to have any purchase or legitimacy in the national consciousness so that your preferred grassroots level sport could flourish. Every Sport in a franchised culture environment has expanded into an area which it didn't exist in the pre war era for example. Melbourne are the prime example in RL of a city that didn't play RL in any great amount, yet had a space for the game carved out by a pro team and grew a culture from it. The US and Canada are littered with examples across their "Big 4" sports which afaik at least 2 started in a relatively small area of the country and then grew. Point being, that without that professional, and I guess you might argue contrived, team in the city/region, the sport isn't going to get a foothold to do your growth. In RL though we both appreciate the knocks are bigger. The collisions are bigger. Its what many people love about the sport. It is somewhat limiting though in how it makes it a very elite game in practice. Whilst you say there are examples of union teams that do cut themselves off into veterans teams etc., my point was that populating the 3s and 4s and 5s of union clubs around the country (and indeed in RL heartlands) there are many players playing longer at that open age level. This is relevant in that if the game is hard for someone over 35 to play then it is as difficult for youngsters as well. In my opinion getting more people playing because they enjoy playing is just as important as producing professional quality players. I appreciate that dividing by weight would be a potential avenue to move down. My own suggestion would be to reduce the 10m defence to a lower number to reduce the scale of impacts. What I meant was that whilst sports evolved in the late 1800s and 20th century, that isn't necessarily the way things are going to work now. The world is different. People are different. Living in the past and expecting things to work in the 2020s in Toronto, Canada because they worked in 1920s industrial Lancashire is madness. I appreciate you may view that as an extreme example but the point is still salient. We both don't know how the game is going to grow in Canada - but what we both know is that having a pro team there is going to help far more than it will ever hinder.

Rubbish. There`s been loads of responses to him he has fully ignored and you know it. Your white knighting of him is as pathetic as his trolling.

I think the terminology you are looking for is DR. DP is a totally different thing, especially on some of the videos I have seen.

To me its who ever wins next week's game, if fev win they deserve it and should be promoted. Same with Toronto and SL bosses should announce that .

How much RL content is actually streamed? One men's game a week? Football crowds in both England and Scotland have grown despite those sports having much bigger profiles on social media and streaming platforms. The fans aren't staying at home to watch a stream. Rugby Union Premiership averages are showing upward trends (admittedly helped by one-off 'big event' games), whilst cricket has used T20 to pack-out games across the country. People will leave their house for the right event and the right experience. Streaming and social media isn't the reason SL crowds are falling. They're falling because the clubs and the league aren't providing what anyone but a dwindling core of diehard fans believes is worth their while. We aren't offering the product they want and the experience they want, and the declining crowds is evidence of that. Streaming isn't the enemy to bums on seats, and its equally an opportunity to get more eyeballs onto RL. We shouldn't be measuring bums on seats, but eyeballs on the game - wherever they are.

Why do they have to bring anything to superleague. If they win the gf they get promoted. Only In rugby league do fans say stupid stuff like this. You don’t get football fans saying what would Burnley bring to the premier league. Who cars if no one has heard of us

On to Rotorua next I think and then Auckland to conclude.

There are now more full time opportunities for players, which has expanded the earning potential of what we do have, which in turn should expand player interest.

1. PLAYERS we've got 15 signed on at the minute a lot of them are young lads who I would have thought would like a crack plus three aussies who yet to decide on their futures plus we have 4 on DR from leeds who are nowhere near a leeds first team place so would think they would sign 2. DUAL REG no duel re if promoted as for loans only first 28 days binding after that it's like a ferry roll on roll off player can be taken back to parent club at short notice only stipulation if they sign a loan deal for FEV can't be loaned to anyone else during loan period 3. CROWDS yes FEV's crowds are just over 2000 but you got to think if you get over 200 away fans then your lucky would assume SL would bring more and before FEV were omitted to let in london and PSG crowds were similar to c#s and better than wakey and when @s got relegated over 7000 came to FEV to watch furthermore a lot of people including mates of mine walked away after supprting FEV home and away for years only coming back to the c#s league and cup games and who have said if FEV go up they will be getting season tickets 4. LONG TERM VISION academy back in the day although it had won the league FEV were told by RFL to disband academy and U16 scholarship to allow players to join SL clubs similarly just been told by the RFL to disband reserves to allow players to join SL clubs so if promoted any ones guess sponsors FEV have over 40 sponsors who I assume would increase payment and probably get new sponsors on back of promotion Community Engagement FEV have run a foundation for years which has won numerous awards to grow the business FEV own their own ground and that makes them money plus plans to develop land they own and a local business think tank say's when up and running could bring in over 70 grand a month but that's not for now it will be 2 to 3 years till it starts so will have to make do with the 2 million sky money?

back to the OP I hope Fev do it but Toronto must be massive favourites. Whoever wins i doubt the result will greatly effect any future TV deal or impact on Super leagues bid for global dominance I'd say both clubs bring problems to SL but nothing compared to the ones it already has

But you believe the high-flying metropolises of Wigan, St Helens, Warrington & Hull (for example) are a draw because they’re towns in the north with a higher immediate population? the whole ‘pit village’ argument is nothing more than distraction. There are very few big city teams in UK rugby league and the more successful ones are often the traditional community clubs. When Wigan were dominating the sport in the ‘80s an ‘90s, I don’t remember anyone whining about their geographical location, or marketability as a weekend destination. if you want to travel to exotic places., feel free, just don’t expect the sport we all love to restructure to give you an excuse to go. Otherwise there’s no hop for any of the current SL clubs apart from Leeds and Catalan. Will all you SL fans still be championing favouring expansion teams when its at the expense of your clubs? I know your natural altruism will mean you’re happy to see your clubs playing second tier for eternity with no hope of promotion as long as SL has New York & Johannesburg.

What a great and innovative way to announce this new signing. The Bulldogs media team deserves a lot of credit for putting the Bulldogs out there in cyberspace ?

Yes I thought Mark had lost a bit of weight too. Top bloke!

Whislt I certainly would agree from the playing perspective, I don't think that highlighting how football fans don't have such critiques is a fair example. The Premier League isn't a competition that is desperately struggling for relevancy and national / international appeal in a changing sports market. As it stands, we have a merit-based system that says that if you perform to a standard on the field, you are promoted. If Featherstone meet that standard, nobody can or should deny the achievement. However, we also have to acknowledge that commercially, it is not necessarily the ideal scenario for the sport. Now most fans will not care for the commercial side of it, and rightly so. This is an entertainment-based competition at the end of the day. But the sport is about to enter a very important period that will have a big influence on its financial security and prospects. Whether we like it or not, the modern sports markets does make the commercial side increasingly important. One of the key issues is that the game lacks geographic spread. It makes it hard for people to "buy into" this sport if they do not live in a relatively small part of the country, and it makes it hard for the game to generate attention beyond that small part of the country. That has an impact on various factors that determine how successful this sport is. Putting a third team into one postcode area means that you have another team trying to drink from a small and very dry well. It is another team fighting for local column inches, competing for support from local industry and fighting for the local leisure dollar. It's another team that makes it hard for people outside the 'heartland' to buy into RL. Let me reiterate, if Featherstone win on Sunday, all power to them - it would be a fantastic achievement and their promotion will be deserved. But at the same time, I don't think it's wrong or unfair to suggest that it wouldn't be the best outcome for a league that is desperate to find new revenue streams.

You and your fellow Fev fans really need to lose that chip on your shoulder. It does you no favours. There was nothing sarcy or catty about my post, I was merely stating a fact that it’s going to be hard. Any rational Fev fan can see that. And on Davies, he left Cas to join Batley. My point was he looked good enough to be a solid professional SL player, better than the likes of Massey who Cas kept on. I think he’s too good for the Championship. So stop being so bitter, you’re lucky to have him

Some good replies so far. Re: Signing players, I think there are a couple of issues that would make it more tricky than what has been suggested 1. The lateness of knowing which division you're in - this has always been the problem with promotion and relegation. The only players generally available for the promoted team are the players from the relegated team! In this case, you don't really even have that because London's best players (Abdul, Walker etc) have already been snapped up. So, you are left with signing players that nobody really wants. The same will apply to Toronto to an extent - albeit they have the cash to splash to leverage better players from the NRL. 2. Yes, agents will indeed be making a beeline to you. Ask Derek Beaumont about that! He ended up having to take players on 2-year deals (of course the agents made sure it was a 2-year deal) which left Leigh in a right old mess when they got relegated, and couldn't afford the salaries on Championship money the following season. I sincerely hope Longo has more sense than to sign journeymen mercenaries! 3. The reason that London haven't got caught in the trap that Leigh did (above) is that they were already full-time pro BEFORE they went up, plus they were producing their own players through their Academy, several whom have come through into their team this season. That's a problem that it won't be easy for Featherstone to mitigate in the short-term. They won't be able to produce their own players quickly enough even if they start an Academy next Monday morning!

Plenty happening in Africa, the South African Domestic and Regional Representative seasons have both kicked off, Burrundi has their domestic competition kicking off in November, Ghana just hosted its first inter-University clash last weekend and then of course the MEA Championship kicks off in just a matter of days.

I will put you down as a 'NO' then shall I?

You won't get anything of any substance Parky, just look at who has placed the laughing Emoji to your correspondence they do it every time, they have nothing whatsoever constructive to debate in the Toronto discussion, a one finger press is about their limit.

They did yes, but that's why it might take some time. Those multi million sports also have a far deeper player pool though, which would have its own hurdles in creating top talent from an area. I think it does balance out with the smaller player pool of RL, only time will tell! I think we both agree that things should be moving a little more then they are though if we want to see a Canadian player playing on the rfl anytime soon. I would say a league one player quality in the next 5 years would be possible if development starts to accelerate even just a little. I would also count that as a huge success! People thinking that SL quality built that fast are delusional. Those thinking Toronto can do it that fast, and those thinking they should/have to. It's a shame Quinn left to start a career in aviation! His presence would have been a huge benefit to Canadian RL

Didn't think we'd beat Leigh Didn't think we'd beat York Didn't think we'd beat Toulouse and i don't think we have much of a chance against Toronto on a short week 3500 miles away on a plastic pitch but with this coach and these players and the team spirit they have you never know. Last night was amazing...... a fantastic achievement by our club........then this morning i come on here and read some of the miserable tosh being spouted and i despair I bet some of you lot must go around telling 4 year olds Santa isn't real

Well done Thunder,hope you make the Championship. The development work being done by Thunder,should be sufficient to make Rimmer resign for his utter incompetence elsewhere.

Good luck next weekend Fev, hope you go over there and do a London. From all at Batley, well done.

Your comment certainly opens up the idea of GB. Whilst the squad that will get selected to tour later this year will almost be solely filled with players born or predominantly schooled in England. The heritage of those selected however may have some greater Celtic connection. Perhaps that is how the team should be marketed. Interview players parents or grandparents who are from the Celtic nations to demonstrate the greater British influence of that team.

If Fev win, they deserve the title by winning four away games on the trot. That said, they have a short turn around and must be a bit banged up. TWP need to be patient, get on top up front and then start to play wide. I'm 75% confident.

Registered Canadian Union players keen on Rugby per se also play RL a bit and ex-pats from down under like to play some RL if they can, but in terms of registered out and out RL players in Canada there aren't any. I can find 23,853 Rugby Union players registered though. Most "RL clubs" are actually not clubs in their own right just sections of Union clubs. So no they don't play RL to any level useful for Canadian RL pro-player recruitment & development. Yes English Superleague needs NINE clubs minimum for SKY TV money. Perez needs FIVE clubs minimum for an NA TV contract, so that's France stuffed and gone, plus given you can't stop excusing TWP as a Canadian club from developing players despite TWP saying they would do this as the quid pro quo for entry to the game here (who are you to change this agreement?)............ Then it looks like in a few years time those nine English clubs will have to produce players for themselves AND for all the North American clubs as well. Once again you really need to think these things through, before you post stuff like this??. Here we go again, with the "TWP are so glamorous anyone who sees them will fall in love with and want to watch/play Rugby league" rubbish. I would not mind but everyone says TWP are dull and boring. The "five or six postcodes" are Lancashire and Yorkshire where the Northern game dominated the rest of the Rugby Union. We are alive today because we broke away and still dominate Union in these two counties. But across the rest of Great Britain and North America Rugby Union dominates us. So if anything is ridiculous it is North American RL clubs who won't get anywhere against MLR, replacing Northern English clubs in Superleague. Since day one of this debate I have set out how every North American club devoid of any ability to develop players at all, replacing M62 clubs who can develop players as SL entities will destroy their ability to do so. Thus the player crisis will deepen and threaten the game's very existence. Well they all are a darn site better than do nothing Argylle and his phoney club. You guys just do not or will not get it. You can't over ten years shut down five Superleague clubs and their development systems here, and substitute them with five North American clubs who can't develop ANY players, and expect that not to accelerate the quality player crisis. You just won't accept the resentment this will cause, and how many people will walk away from the game here, many who put their heart and soul into it. Cue insults, daft childish comments etc in lieue of any adult replies, but it really is time for all you North American expansion fanatics to explain how you expand a game by replacing English clubs who develop players as Superleague clubs, for North American clubs who do not develop players? This isn't expansion it is the substitution of Clubs leading to contraction of player development. Deal with it Gentlemen....

Well done Fev from a York supporter. I might even go to Toronto!

Good for you. You obviously had no connection with your heritage. My family has.

If we have Toronto and Tolouse ready and primed stuck in the championship and Fev get promoted we really are doomed. I really couldn't care less if they deserved it on the field. Fair play to them but they are nothing but a feeder club who survive on Dual Registration who couldn't field a full squad only 12 months ago. Yet Toronto are the ones who have to provide extra due diligence.

What a ridiculous thread. whoever wins next week deserves to go to S/L. Everyone knew the rules at the start of the season, so why start moaning about Fev or Toronto getting there.

Castleford is a suburb of Wakefield. I agree 3 teams based in Wakefield would be ridiculous and terrible for the sport at a crucial time in negotiations for the next sky tv deal.

leeds have lost more captains recently than Thomas cook airlines

Canadians like him should never have been allowed in the UK charts in the first place. What do they bring to the UK music industry anyway? Do they even contribute to the development of young UK artists? Now we have artists from everywhere just coming here and going to No. 1. This has contributed to the decline of the music industry in this country, make no mistake about that. Just look how Rick Astley disappeared because of him. A young, vibrant artist from the heartlands of the music industry just completely sidelined and overlooked. It's just never been the same since.