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Apology to Paris Surtout


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4 replies to this topic

#1 Cliff Spracklen

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 10:56 AM

I realise the original thread has been deleted but I do wish to apologise to Paris Surtout and explain calmly ;
my reasons for my arguements.
I do not think for one moment that you are in any way racist or sympathetic to Nazi ideology. If my response creates that impression then I apologise unreservedly.
But I am very clear that any attempt to talk about what could be interpreted as racial stereotyping alongside terms like scientific evidence is not helpful, even if it is intended in a kindly, benevolent or positive way. Far too often others have latched on to such discussions to promote mischief and malice. I have spent much of my life on the front line of race relations so I know what sort of people can latch on to the bandwagon of racial stereotyping. So a heartfelt personal apology to you as I know you to be a million miles from that kind of caricature, indeed you would be appalled by any hint of association. But I have no regrets at raising the issue of the dangers of racial stereotyping.
There have been previous threads that have got frighteningly near to encouraging such reactions. Even the merest allusion can set the ball rolling. Such views are not uncommon as train journeys on a Saturday morning full of a certain type of football fan can confirm.
I acknowledge totally that RL officials in Australia have gone out of their way to attract members of the indigenous communities to the sport. A very positive outcome as it has increased further the potential pool of RL players, which must mean that Australia recruits from a much larger proportion of the potential athletes than does the UK, which is recruiting from a much smaller base. Indeed for whatever reason the number of “black” players in the broadest sense does now appear to be a much greater proportion of their numbers in the overall population, similarly to what you might find say here in the ranks of sprinters, though I don’t have the figures.
But where I take issue is that I don’t accept that it is because they are bigger/smaller/quicker/more athletic because of their ethnic origins. And yes it has been good for the game and tremendous for the self-esteem for those communities that have often been less successful economically and in other ways. I think Jonathan Thurston is brilliant because he has a brilliant sense of timing of the simple short pass.
I even accept that because of lifestyle, nutrition etc the aboriginal population might have produced fewer big forwards, to date, than backs. But physique can change with diet and lifestyle over time. Co-incidence at any one time due to a number of coincidental factors is not the same as pre-determined.It is not fixed.
As to the UK you might have a point. Our sport has proclaimed, with good reason, that we have been much more open to minorities than other sports. From Lucius Banks nearly 100 years ago to Boston, Sullivan, Hanley et al at the top of our sport, and in positions of leadership.
But I feel we have not made the progress we might have done given our early start, compared with the progress made by football. Certainly the progress amongst the Asian communities has not been great, despite Ikram and other’s splendid efforts. A bit of uncertainty or fear about how to proceed perhaps. Sometimes a “they only want to play cricket” assumption maybe. Certainly the increased ghetto-isation of communities does not help. Ironically France has made more impact into its’ Arab/Berber communities, in the treiziste small towns, though because it is less prevalent in the big cities it has not made major inroads into its black African population. Corbeil just outside Paris shows though that there is no barrier to including black Africans if RL is around. Australia may indeed be much more inclusive than in the UK, and I agree it is about trawling all the potential talent, as it is about community inclusion and other reasons.
But I cannot accept the first point about your thesis about having more black players in the team because they are inherently quicker or naturally better athletes. We need quicker more athletic players in the backs, wherever they come from. Involving all sections of the population is more likely to give us more choice. As an aside we need players who can deliver the telling short pas to the winger, as Gene Miles did for Martyn Offiah at Wigan, and Wright and Currier did at Widnes. But that is an aside.
And I am proud to be “politically correct” if the alternative is to be “incorrect”. Despite the often well-publicised absurdities that can arise in this area, still better to be politically correct on balance.
Where I am in agreement with you is that all the personal name-calling and abuse has no place in discussion, this or any other.


#2 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 11:08 AM

Stereotypes:

A "stereotype" is a generalization about a person or group of persons. We develop stereotypes when we are unable or unwilling to obtain all of the information we would need to make fair judgments about people or situations. In the absence of the "total picture," stereotypes in many cases allow us to "fill in the blanks." Our society often innocently creates and perpetuates stereotypes, but these stereotypes often lead to unfair discrimination and persecution when the stereotype is unfavorable.

PS's problem was that he didn't think he was stereotyping, and he thought that his few statistics were a conclusive argument so therefore wasn't stereotyping. They weren't. He had some of the information, but then filled in the blanks. That is stereotyping. It is an innocent stereotype, but is still a stereotype.



Is there a particular reason why the thread was deleted out of hand and not just locked?
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#3 ParisSurtout

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 11:51 AM

QUOTE (Cliff Spracklen @ Sep 5 2010, 06:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I realise the original thread has been deleted but I do wish to apologise to Paris Surtout and explain calmly ;
my reasons for my arguements.
I do not think for one moment that you are in any way racist or sympathetic to Nazi ideology. If my response creates that impression then I apologise unreservedly.
But I am very clear that any attempt to talk about what could be interpreted as racial stereotyping alongside terms like scientific evidence is not helpful, even if it is intended in a kindly, benevolent or positive way. Far too often others have latched on to such discussions to promote mischief and malice. I have spent much of my life on the front line of race relations so I know what sort of people can latch on to the bandwagon of racial stereotyping. So a heartfelt personal apology to you as I know you to be a million miles from that kind of caricature, indeed you would be appalled by any hint of association. But I have no regrets at raising the issue of the dangers of racial stereotyping.
There have been previous threads that have got frighteningly near to encouraging such reactions. Even the merest allusion can set the ball rolling. Such views are not uncommon as train journeys on a Saturday morning full of a certain type of football fan can confirm.
I acknowledge totally that RL officials in Australia have gone out of their way to attract members of the indigenous communities to the sport. A very positive outcome as it has increased further the potential pool of RL players, which must mean that Australia recruits from a much larger proportion of the potential athletes than does the UK, which is recruiting from a much smaller base. Indeed for whatever reason the number of “black” players in the broadest sense does now appear to be a much greater proportion of their numbers in the overall population, similarly to what you might find say here in the ranks of sprinters, though I don’t have the figures.
But where I take issue is that I don’t accept that it is because they are bigger/smaller/quicker/more athletic because of their ethnic origins. And yes it has been good for the game and tremendous for the self-esteem for those communities that have often been less successful economically and in other ways. I think Jonathan Thurston is brilliant because he has a brilliant sense of timing of the simple short pass.
I even accept that because of lifestyle, nutrition etc the aboriginal population might have produced fewer big forwards, to date, than backs. But physique can change with diet and lifestyle over time. Co-incidence at any one time due to a number of coincidental factors is not the same as pre-determined.It is not fixed.
As to the UK you might have a point. Our sport has proclaimed, with good reason, that we have been much more open to minorities than other sports. From Lucius Banks nearly 100 years ago to Boston, Sullivan, Hanley et al at the top of our sport, and in positions of leadership.
But I feel we have not made the progress we might have done given our early start, compared with the progress made by football. Certainly the progress amongst the Asian communities has not been great, despite Ikram and other’s splendid efforts. A bit of uncertainty or fear about how to proceed perhaps. Sometimes a “they only want to play cricket” assumption maybe. Certainly the increased ghetto-isation of communities does not help. Ironically France has made more impact into its’ Arab/Berber communities, in the treiziste small towns, though because it is less prevalent in the big cities it has not made major inroads into its black African population. Corbeil just outside Paris shows though that there is no barrier to including black Africans if RL is around. Australia may indeed be much more inclusive than in the UK, and I agree it is about trawling all the potential talent, as it is about community inclusion and other reasons.
But I cannot accept the first point about your thesis about having more black players in the team because they are inherently quicker or naturally better athletes. We need quicker more athletic players in the backs, wherever they come from. Involving all sections of the population is more likely to give us more choice. As an aside we need players who can deliver the telling short pas to the winger, as Gene Miles did for Martyn Offiah at Wigan, and Wright and Currier did at Widnes. But that is an aside.
And I am proud to be “politically correct” if the alternative is to be “incorrect”. Despite the often well-publicised absurdities that can arise in this area, still better to be politically correct on balance.
Where I am in agreement with you is that all the personal name-calling and abuse has no place in discussion, this or any other.


Thank you Cliff. Apology accepted.
Le rugby a treize, c'est moi!

_____



______________________________________________________

#4 goldcard

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 01:04 PM

Thanks all.
I think this should be locked now, to prevent any repeat of the previous thread.
(I only read some of the previous thread)
Wires record breaking 10 match run: L 16-17 ; L 34-36 ; L 24-44 ; L 20-38 ; L 8-46; L 14-26 ; L 20-40 ; L 22-48 ; L 14-20 ; L 8-60. Thanks Jimmy.The Glamour Club. Apparently.
Captain Morgan Trophy Holders.(I still think we have the British Coal 9's trophy hidden somewhere, too...)
Ooooh, the Challenge Cup!!! Thank you Tony.....
And again!!!Posted Image
Tipping Competiton Challenged Shield Winner 2010

#5 John Drake

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Posted 05 September 2010 - 02:54 PM

QUOTE (Wellsy4HullFC @ Sep 5 2010, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is there a particular reason why the thread was deleted out of hand and not just locked?


Yes, it was because I didn't have the time or patience to fillet out all the insults people were hurling at each other by the end of it, or put myself in a position of being seen to endorse any of the comments that would have remained.

I'm locking this one before it has the opportunity to go the same way. That's not a reflection on Cliff's opening post as he made by far the most sensible, incisive and intelligent contribution in the previously deleted thread too.

John Drake
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