Mid Season Assessment

[mike the lion]

Colin its great to be positive with the current league structure but the facts are that some southern teams like London Skolars and South Wales have been in this league for anything up to 10 seasons and still cannot reach the standard of northern teams and this is reflected in their gates.Spectators mostly go to watch winning teams. 

Whatever the answer is I cannot agree with the current fixture arrangement which do not seem fair to all clubs.

[LOYALION]

What I would do is to stop the use of any D/R players in matches against the 'emerging teams' or whichever way you want to term it. Difficult I know but it may lower some of the scores a little.

BTW, just wondering what the highest score would possibly be in a game. Not historically but hypothetically!

[lionsfanusa]

What I would do is to stop the use of any D/R players in matches against the 'emerging teams' or whichever way you want to term it. Difficult I know but it may lower some of the scores a little.

BTW, just wondering what the highest score would possibly be in a game. Not historically but hypothetically!

Historically, or perhaps hysterically, I played in a 104-0 game once under the 1960's rules. Oh, we lost.....

[Little Lion Man]

I take your point Little Lion Man about targeting 8th spot if you cannot make the top 5,but would you deliberately throw games by fielding a weaker team to achieve this.It would`nt attract supporters to games and may have an adverse affect on gates.

I also think big wins against Southern teams does nothing to attract public interest in the long run only provides a boost to moral for the winning team short term.

Agreed. I would not be in favour of throwing games which would undermine the integrity of the competition but they do seem to be doing that without help from us.

Anyway, we all know it will be different format again next year. Perhaps a northern group of 8 and a southern group of 6 with the winner of the northern group going into the championship and the winner of the southern league joining the NRL....

[steve wild]

There was a meeting of League 1 clubs recently at which the fixture format was discussed.

1- Swinton made the point that all the northern clubs should be playing each other home & away. (Highlighting the York situation especially).

2- The southern clubs said the current format was not helpful to their development (heavy losses, small squads, leading to yet smaller crowds, injuries, lack of growth).

3- The RFL agreed with both perspectives, but also felt there had to be "cross-fertilisation" as the development clubs need a benchmark to aspire to, & a 4th division is not an option.

We have therefore submitted an idea which I believe covers all bases (bearing in mind 22 games is considered the maximum, for good reasons I might explain on another post!).

1- All 8 northern clubs play each other home & away, plus 3 of the southern teams at home & the other 3 away (20 games in total).

2- The 6 southern teams play each other home & away, plus 4 of the northern clubs at home & the other 4 away. They also play an additional 2 fixtures against each other based on a southern ranking system.

Result :-

1- Legitimate league table at top end, enabling champions to be promoted (with 2nd to 5th play-offs).

2- Every team in league still plays each other.

3- Southern clubs have more games against each other & are not over exposed to the northern clubs. They could even have their own trophy based on final ranking positions (a 1st v 2nd final for example).

Not saying it's perfect, but most areas of concern are covered under that system. There is positive discrimination towards the southern clubs under this system, but that's probably what is needed.

An alternative idea of splitting the league in half after a full round of 13 fixtures is also being floated, but I believe that creates a number of anomalies.

The clubs meet again in early August.

[class of 63]

There was a meeting of League 1 clubs recently at which the fixture format was discussed.

1- Swinton made the point that all the northern clubs should be playing each other home & away. (Highlighting the York situation especially).

2- The southern clubs said the current format was not helpful to their development (heavy losses, small squads, leading to yet smaller crowds, injuries, lack of growth).

3- The RFL agreed with both perspectives, but also felt there had to be "cross-fertilisation" as the development clubs need a benchmark to aspire to, & a 4th division is not an option.

We have therefore submitted an idea which I believe covers all bases (bearing in mind 22 games is considered the maximum, for good reasons I might explain on another post!).

1- All 8 northern clubs play each other home & away, plus 3 of the southern teams at home & the other 3 away (20 games in total).

2- The 6 southern teams play each other home & away, plus 4 of the northern clubs at home & the other 4 away. They also play an additional 2 fixtures against each other based on a southern ranking system.

Result :-

1- Legitimate league table at top end, enabling champions to be promoted (with 2nd to 5th play-offs).

2- Every team in league still plays each other.

3- Southern clubs have more games against each other & are not over exposed to the northern clubs. They could even have their own trophy based on final ranking positions (a 1st v 2nd final for example).

Not saying it's perfect, but most areas of concern are covered under that system. There is positive discrimination towards the southern clubs under this system, but that's probably what is needed.

An alternative idea of splitting the league in half after a full round of 13 fixtures is also being floated, but I believe that creates a number of anomalies.

The clubs meet again in early August.

Great info Steve - our idea seems to be as near to the full (and fairest) home and away format which obviously would require 26 games which for whatever reason is not acceptable - will be interesting future reading

[mike the lion]

It`s good to hear the league clubs discussing alternative fixture formats to remedy the imbalance of the current format,but this `positive discrimination`does not sit well with me in any walk of life.

Positive discrimination benefits some but disadvantages others and so their can be an uneven favouring towards a minority. 

[Colin James]

That seems far too sensible for the RFL. What we really need is a Canadian team...

[Colin James]

Only issue would be if a southern team could dominate and finish top of the league based solely on beating the other southern teams home and away. If the northern teams all take points off each other it's not out of the question that could happen. The current play-off system would prevent a team being promoted on the back of that situation as they'd still have to beat a northern side to go up.

[mark richardson]

I think positive discrimination in this way is fine

It's a term being misused here but a great idea

What the southern fixtures have done is provide a great excuse for some brilliant trips away

[FearNothing]

Some good thoughts going on there... Tolouse and the Canadians might throw a spanner in there, but it seems like a possible basis for further discussions....it might even encourage teams like Bristol Sonics to make the jump to Semi-Pro and hence expand the lower division/divisions further.....

[steve wild]

If Toulouse join they'd become a de-facto northern club, giving the northern sides 22 matches (16 games against each other, & 6 v the southern teams).

The southern clubs would play all but one of each other 3 times, plus all the northern clubs once (also 22 matches).

So still full home & away fixtures for the "northern" 9 clubs, & every team still plays each other. Plus southern teams would have 13 fixtures against each other rather than the 10 at present.

Well that's the theory ! Lol

[Little Lion Man]

I agree that sounds much too sensible  - However York could always re-locate to Bristol and mess you up again!

[gogledd]

If Toulouse join they'd become a de-facto northern club, giving the northern sides 22 matches (16 games against each other, & 6 v the southern teams).

The southern clubs would play all but one of each other 3 times, plus all the northern clubs once (also 22 matches).

So still full home & away fixtures for the "northern" 9 clubs, & every team still plays each other. Plus southern teams would have 13 fixtures against each other rather than the 10 at present.

Well that's the theory ! Lol

I'm open to hear this discussed more before making a decision. Toulouse will obviously be targeting a promotion place the first season they come in. Two of the current cohort will be promoted so we will have 2 teams coming down from the Championship. These are likely to be strong teams and probably de-facto 'northern' - will that give parity for the teams who finish 3rd to 5th this season? There has to be hope for development and promotion for all teams and although I can see the fairness of it for the current situation this will change dramatically with the introduction of Toulouse and the relegation of Championship teams.

 

As I say, I'd like to hear more.

[The Baron Mk11]

Are we missing an update from last weekend on the mid season assessment Class of 63?

[class of 63]

Are we missing an update from last weekend on the mid season assessment Class of 63?

Apologies but down in Cornwall with minimal internet connection (was going to leave it until I get back) but will try now - thank you for your interest

1 Oldham 34pts

2 Keighley 34pts

3 York 34pts

4 N Wales 31pts

5 Rochdale 30pts

6 Newcastle 30pts

7 Swinton 29pts

8 Barrow 26pts

Obviously points difference will change things but as previously said every week will change things - anybody's guess

[ChrisCondron]

I'd say we can afford to lose at either Oldham *or* North Wales, but need to win all the others.

Fifth wouldn't be terrible. We'd play first or second, but with a week's rest and them coming off a heartbreaking defeat...

Third would be a home tie, but feels a stretch.

Game at a time territory really though. Hope we get a good turnout and result Sunday!

[steve wild]

Using this model, if we were to win all of our remaining games we'd finish 1st.

[ChrisCondron]

Been pondering the various models and permutations, and reading good threads on the Rochdale pages, and I've come to the following conclusion: whoever you are, and under whatever variation of a slightly skewed system, if you can't get in the top *five* you probably shouldn't *really* be thinking about promotion...

We'll be there or thereabouts if we deserve to be...

[Little Lion Man]

We are on a role.......home or away I see us winning most (statistically speaking) of the remaining games.

[gogledd]

North Wales Crusaders remaining games:

Oldham [H] (26/07)

University of Gloucestershire All Golds [H] (02/08)

Rochdale Hornets [A] (09/08)

Swinton Lions [H] (16/08)

London Skolars [A] (28/08)

York City Knights [H] (06/09)

Newcastle Thunder [A] (13/09)

 

plus an away fixture at York to fit in. 

 

8 games left - 4 home, 4 away. 6 games against 'top 8 opposition - 3 at home, 3 away. A tough run in but I'm sure there will be others who think their end of season is just as tough. We're on a good run of form but so are others. All appear to be must-win games!

 

As someone else said - one game at a time!

[class of 63]

Good win for us today - Oldham win away at North Wales so final table could be this

 

1 Oldham         36pts

2 York               34pts

3 Keighley        34pts

4 Rochdale       30pts

5 Newcastle      30pts

6 N Wales          29pts

7 Swinton          29pts

8 Barrow           26pts

 

I calculate there are 15 games left between top 8 teams so as we keep saying anything can happen

[ChrisCondron]

By that reckoning, beating Newcastle and the southern teams should see us there or thereabouts. Season-defining game for both clubs next week?...

[FearNothing]

Must admit, ~I think Thunder are now out of it, their early-season form is becoming a bit of a distant memory and they would need to win all 6 remaining games to hit 30pts (which I don't think they can do)...that leaves 7 into 5, our loss yesterday has put us in a bit of a hole, but I dont yet think we're done...figers crossed...

[class of 63]

Good win for us today - Oldham win away at North Wales so final table could be this

 

1 Oldham         36pts

2 York               34pts

3 Keighley        34pts

4 Rochdale       30pts

5 Newcastle      30pts

6 N Wales          29pts

7 Swinton          29pts

8 Barrow           26pts

 

I calculate there are 15 games left between top 8 teams so as we keep saying anything can happen

 

Correction to the above 14 games left between top 8 teams

These are the crunch games left for what should be a thrilling end of season

 

Oldham - Keighley home / Newcastle away / Barrow home / Swinton home

Keighley - Oldham away / Barrow home / Rochdale away 

York - N Wales away / Barrow home / N Wales home

N Wales - Rochdale away / Swinton home / York home / Newcastle away / York away

Swinton - Newcastle away / N Wales away / Oldham away

Barrow - Keighley away / Oldham away / Rochdale home / York away

Rochdale - N Wales home / Keighley home / Barrow away 

Newcastle - Swinton home / Oldham home / N Wales home