Salary Cap

[The Parksider]

Where are these SL standard youngsters? We only have enough for what 4 / 5 teams and many of the very best ones are now leaving at 16 to sign / play Union.

I fully agree that we need to put our energy into youth development but franchises / caps / drafts do not achieve that.

What on earth does the Superleague franchise system and the professional players wage salary cap have to do with blocking youth development????

Kids in Wales can go to established and famous professional Union clubs and earn big money, kids in London can go play for a series of outstanding premier soccer and union outfits down there.

Yet the growth of kids playing OUR game in those two areas is phenomenal.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

The standards have dropped this year in sl.Excitement?sl is boring and personally have decided to stop watching most sl games as the championship games on a thursday are way better. And you still have not answered where exacrly has the cap worked.

[The Parksider]

The standards have dropped this year in sl.Excitement?sl is boring and personally have decided to stop watching most sl games as the championship games on a thursday are way better. And you still have not answered where exacrly has the cap worked.

I think I have made my own answer, but if you aren't clear I'll have a go.

The cap has been a tool to stop clubs overspending and going bust. I think that it has done just that since it came in, and is really effective because we do not see clubs going bust from overspending now. It WORKS.

The cap sets a level of money that takes into account investment in clubs is very disparate. Some clubs are on small gates others on high gates. The cap allows modest director investment to bring the 14 clubs to a close standard. That is seen by Crusaders winning at Leeds, Harlequins winning at Wigan. the cap WORKS

Yet the real big clubs like Hull, Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Bradford, Fartown and Wire are not so disadvantaged they don't still rightly end up at the top and in the finals - The cap WORKS in evenin up the competition and encouraging investment throughout the league without penalising the top clubs.

We saw where an unregulated RL went with Wigan in the eighties and Widnes attempting to keep up. The cap prevents a rich director from indulging his millions in a fantasy that he will build the biggest and best club in the league such that the "standards" the club supposedly sets are so far in front of everyone else that nobody else can get near. It didn't work then and must not be allowed to be re-visited now.

The indications are that although nearly ALL our SL clubs - apart maybe from Hull and Cas, have access to private money. Again this is almost certainly disparate, in that many of the investors can only afford or will by choice limit, what they put in. Much of the investment offered by Hudgell, Hughes, Wilkinson etc is limited to ensuring their clubs can compete in SL and grow albeit very slowly at times.

Some private investors with access to large funds actively state that they do not favour the idea of pumping millions in like Lenegan, and probably Caddick. The indications are the removal of the cap may lead to only one or two investors letting loose with their millions.

If all clubs had such investors this would be welcome. It would not be welcome if only a couple could do this so the cap WORKS to block this and allow all clubs to be able to build. But remember building a "big" club takes years. The cap is no guarantee of instant success and merely facilitates growth. If growth is painfully slow that's the clubs fault not the caps.

So for those reasons the cap WORKS in evenin the competition without restricting the big clubs too far, in encouraging collective growth, and allowing private investment where it's neccessary, and not allowing wage inflation or a Wigan style destructive dominance.

And that's the last point - we have seen what can happen with no cap yet some pople are blind to history - quite dangerous.

Finally we have seen how the cap is blamed for.....

1. Saints and Leeds always in the GF

2. Clubs like Wakey and Cas going nowhere

3. Low numbers of quality young players coming through

4. Union stars no longer coming into our game

5. The recession

6. The national deficit

7. The breakdown of Wayne Rooney's marriage etc etc

If there is an argument to abolish the cap it has to be something that the cap has been responsible for.....

[dallymessenger]

The standards have dropped this year in sl.Excitement?sl is boring and personally have decided to stop watching most sl games as the championship games on a thursday are way better. And you still have not answered where exacrly has the cap worked.

the expansion of 2 teams with poor crowds and iffy finances will dilute SL a little, but its a price worth it imo.

the salary cap has worked in wire and wigan, and the giants coming up and challenging saints and leeds for trophies.

also there is more financial stability now in SL than the pre SL days due to the salary cap

[shrek]

the salary cap has worked in wire and wigan, and the giants coming up and challenging saints and leeds for trophies.

Just as you can't blame the cap for all the games woes I don't see how you can credit it with much either, you've no idea if all teams are playing to the rules, I've no idea and most importantly I am pretty sure the RFL have no idea.

[dallymessenger]

Just as you can't blame the cap for all the games woes I don't see how you can credit it with much either, you've no idea if all teams are playing to the rules, I've no idea and most importantly I am pretty sure the RFL have no idea.

dont agree. the salary cap most certainly has worked wonders in the nrl so its not a co-incidence those same things are happening in SL.

and until every club spends the full salary cap in SL, you cant really judge its effectiveness.

its only now starting to work.

salary caps have been shown to work elsewhere like the american sports where the nrl got the idea from

[The Parksider]

Just as you can't blame the cap for all the games woes I don't see how you can credit it with much either, you've no idea if all teams are playing to the rules, I've no idea and most importantly I am pretty sure the RFL have no idea.

I think Steve May and Dally who are good students of the game have credited the cap with a heck of a lot. So have I albeit I'm a disreputable charlatan. Don't you believe the credit we give it - the reasoning seems solid to us - why not you ?

I do recognise you have a bee in your scrum cap about cheating.

But the principle remains that if they do cheat it isn't by that much, and if you get on your purist high horse and declare the cap should be removed because people cheat it, then you only undo the advantages it has given us.

So club chairmen are sneaky gits who try to cheat the cap rules.

According to Clarkey Leeds are sneaky gits who try to cheat Wigan.

So that's it mate, the Salary Cap and Wigan should go

As for the players who weekly try to cheat the ref......

[shrek]

dont agree. the salary cap most certainly has worked wonders in the nrl so its not a co-incidence those same things are happening in SL.

and until every club spends the full salary cap in SL, you cant really judge its effectiveness.

its only now starting to work.

salary caps have been shown to work elsewhere like the american sports where the nrl got the idea from

Which is fine its your opinion and your entitled to it, 7 pages in though and thats all we have opinions. If you honestly believe that Simon Evans at the RFL has the resources at his disposal to ensure that no clubs are circumnavigating the cap in any way shape or form and that all previous indisgrections, of which there have been a few have been caught then fine. I on the other hand am a little more cynical I do believe there will be instances that have gone undetected because its impossible for one man, or even one organisation as small as the RFL to police the payments to 350 individuals.

The comparison with american sports is all well and good, but your not comparing like with like, I sighted earlier in the thread the NHL try and bypass it with contracts taking players well into there 40's and beyond playing age the baseball can spend what they like if they pay a "luxury tax" leaving the NFL as possibly the only major example with a flat cap, which has the player draft which is no doubt more effective at ensuring the weakest teams get access to decent players.

[shrek]

I think Steve May and Dally who are good students of the game have credited the cap with a heck of a lot. So have I albeit I'm a disreputable charlatan. Don't you believe the credit we give it - the reasoning seems solid to us - why not you ?

Its not a balanced argument as your list suggests a couple of posts ago, your happy to absolve the cap from any blame, yet credit it with a great deal.

Its not a case of scrap it because people try and bend the rules, I'd scrap it because its unenforceable, its almost like a voluntary code of conduct, getting penalised under the cap is more a tax on the stupid than a catch all deterrent.

And back to my earlier point, why should a club be punished but not individuals? Fans don't deserve to have points removed or titles stripped yet the individuals to blame go scott free, the administrators can move on and the players keep the money they had no right to in the first place.

[The Parksider]

1. Its not a balanced argument as your list suggests a couple of posts ago, your happy to absolve the cap from any blame, yet credit it with a great deal.

2. Its not a case of scrap it because people try and bend the rules, I'd scrap it because its unenforceable, its almost like a voluntary code of conduct, getting penalised under the cap is more a tax on the stupid than a catch all deterrent.

3. And back to my earlier point, why should a club be punished but not individuals? Fans don't deserve to have points removed or titles stripped yet the individuals to blame go scott free, the administrators can move on and the players keep the money they had no right to in the first place.

1. It balances the argument made by half a dozen on here that the cap is useless. What have I got to blame the cap for? The fact people break it isn't the caps fault.

2. Unenforcable seems to indicate that it's largely ingored and if you are caught you don't get punished. It is largely followed and and melbourne???

3. The sort of individual who may sneak some money past the cap is the sort of individual who the RFL should be trying to nicely keep in line - would you punish the games biggest private investors?? Kind of self defeating thing to do for the sake of purity.

Anyway could you suggest where the cap may be being "exceeded" currently??

[Father Ted]

The "salary cap doesn't work" quote that is credited to me is true.

The "level playing field" Quins beating Wigan, Cru winning at Headingly etc has nothing whatsoever to do with the salary cap!

What has caused this is sky tv investing in rl to show our games on their channels.

SKY TV

[dallymessenger]

Which is fine its your opinion and your entitled to it, 7 pages in though and thats all we have opinions. If you honestly believe that Simon Evans at the RFL has the resources at his disposal to ensure that no clubs are circumnavigating the cap in any way shape or form and that all previous indisgrections, of which there have been a few have been caught then fine. I on the other hand am a little more cynical I do believe there will be instances that have gone undetected because its impossible for one man, or even one organisation as small as the RFL to police the payments to 350 individuals.

The comparison with american sports is all well and good, but your not comparing like with like, I sighted earlier in the thread the NHL try and bypass it with contracts taking players well into there 40's and beyond playing age the baseball can spend what they like if they pay a "luxury tax" leaving the NFL as possibly the only major example with a flat cap, which has the player draft which is no doubt more effective at ensuring the weakest teams get access to decent players.

the idea that a salary cap works in america and australia was a counter to your point that there is no evidence its worked in SL.

sure clubs can cheat thats not a case to say we shouldnt have a cap.

its like saying people will always break the law so we shouldnt have laws in the first place

if clubs cheat hopefully theyll get caught eventually and get punished very heavily like the storm and dogs

[Father Ted]

Sorry, meant to say "not allowed to" rather than "now allowed to".

Apologies for that.

[dallymessenger]

The "salary cap doesn't work" quote that is credited to me is true.

The "level playing field" Quins beating Wigan, Cru winning at Headingly etc has nothing whatsoever to do with the salary cap!

What has caused this is sky tv investing in rl to show our games on their channels.

SKY TV

[shrek]

the idea that a salary cap works in america and australia was a counter to your point that there is no evidence its worked in SL.

But it doesn't counter it as other than the name you are not comparing like for like systems.

[dallymessenger]

But it doesn't counter it as other than the name you are not comparing like for like systems.

SL and the nrl are now identical systems.

look at the nrl.

and it doesnt have to be exactly identical to work.

[shrek]

Anyway could you suggest where the cap may be being "exceeded" currently??

No, thanks, I think we both know to do so would be foolish.

On the flip side are you happy to say that every club this year will not spend a penny over the cap or seek ways to circumnavigate it and all who do will be caught and punished accordingly? And when caught and punished is it correct to punish the club rather than directly punish those players who have been overpaid and the administrators who have allowed it to happen?

[dallymessenger]

to make it simple in the nrl youve got -

brisbane broncos - profit $3 - $4 million, revenues of $20 million plus

gold coast titans - profits of $1 million

a few sydney clubs with crowds of 20,000 and a strong leagues club behind them

the other 10 clubs its a struggle to match these clubs financially

without a salary cap youd have 6 teams max dominating the league and the rest there for show

in a professional league, without a salary cap the rich clubs will always dominate

[shrek]

and it doesnt have to be exactly identical to work.

Correct, although the cap you say works in America, is not the same as is used in NRL and Super League, so I don't see how how that can counter my argument plus in America you have the draft, which in my mind removes it from the debate we are having here altogether.

[The Parksider]

The "salary cap doesn't work" quote that is credited to me is true.

The "level playing field" Quins beating Wigan, Cru winning at Headingly etc has nothing whatsoever to do with the salary cap!

It is SKY TV that has created a competitive SL, not the SC.

The salary cap doesn't put money into the game and is irrelevant.

We also have the situation where only 4-5 clubs are spending up to the cap so they have not grown their buisinesses to that level yet. The SC won't help them do it.

The cap therefore is only restraining those 4-5 clubs who are spending up to the cap and maybe could afford to invest more in players, but of course are now alllowed to.

Welcome to the world of debate Ted, seriously nice to have you along for the argument!!

You have me on the Quins and Cru point.

I agree the cap is restraining 4-5 clubs who "maybe" could afford to PAY more to players.

The points I would make to you is:-

If the SC is taken away it will allow the (lets say) 4 clubs to look at what talent there is in the other 10 clubs.

They can then pick them out and take them off the other ten.

Instantly creating a mini league of lets say...

Moran

Lenegan

Caddick

McManus

To get those players these four would pay more than the 10 can pay. That is NOT investment it is wage inflation.

Now let's say Cudjoe develops into the next Ellery Hanley. The four club chairmen start a bidding war and one of Superleagues assets is then allowed a big fat slice of personal wage inflation.

Ted - that isn't "investing" mate.

If clubs want to invest in players then go round and support starting up new junior clubs THATS investing in players.

Anyway back to the top four clubs having all the players bacause they all doubled their wage bills to

[dallymessenger]

Correct, although the cap you say works in America, is not the same as is used in NRL and Super League, so I don't see how how that can counter my argument plus in America you have the draft, which in my mind removes it from the debate we are having here altogether.

you said there was no evidence of the SC working in SL so i said its worked in the nrl and for various american sports

the nrl got the idea of the SC from the americans in the early 90s. from then the yanks have evolved it somewhat, and we are looking at some of their reforms to adopt them

clearly for the yanks to have kept it so long it must be beneficial.

simple question - why do you want a competition dominated by a few rich clubs.

if you werent a fan of one of these clubs im sure your opinion would be different

[shrek]

you said there was no evidence of the SC working in SL so i said its worked in the nrl and for various american sports

the nrl got the idea of the SC from the americans in the early 90s. from then the yanks have evolved it somewhat, and we are looking at some of their reforms to adopt them

clearly for the yanks to have kept it so long it must be beneficial.

simple question - why do you want a competition dominated by a few rich clubs.

if you werent a fan of one of these clubs im sure your opinion would be different

Not at all, I'd be willing to look at a whole host of alternatives to protect clubs from themselves so its not a case of salary cap or as you were if it were my shout.

You couldn't be more wrong about my club allegiance and opinions on the game, I'd gladly not see Wigan win another trophy for the rest of my life time in exchange for seeing GB win and then retain the ashes for a further series.

Alternatives off the top of my head could be;

- Clubs have to post a profit of have permission from the RFL not to do so in order to accommodate say stadium up grade. To counter the sugar daddy element I would limit the maximum investment of one individual to a set fee, say

[dallymessenger]

Not at all, I'd be willing to look at a whole host of alternatives to protect clubs from themselves so its not a case of salary cap or as you were if it were my shout.

You couldn't be more wrong about my club allegiance and opinions on the game, I'd gladly not see Wigan win another trophy for the rest of my life time in exchange for seeing GB win and then retain the ashes for a further series.

Alternatives off the top of my head could be;

- Clubs have to post a profit of have permission from the RFL not to do so in order to accommodate say stadium up grade. To counter the sugar daddy element I would limit the maximum investment of one individual to a set fee, say

[Father Ted]

Cudjoe maybe the next Hanley or Boston or whoever. So which sugar daddy is going to outbid Huddersfield's own sugar daddy Ken Davy?

He might not be as rich as some there's no way any of the others mentioned are going to outbid him for any of his players or any other players. Huddersfield would have gone bust years ago but for our Ken!

As for the cap stopping players going from smaller clubs to larger and more successful ones. Well it hasn't stopped them. That's why Shenton is going from Cas and LMS from Quins both to Saints.

Atkins went from Wakey to Wire as Myler went from Widnes to Salford and now Wire. Leeds have soaked up talent from Cas, Wakey etc for years.

We need a new approach. The Aussies have admitted their SC has failed and our SC is theirs in transplant mode across the world. The NRL are now devising a new system to replace the SC and no doubt it will improve matters no end. The system they are suggesting is an open one, transparent and where secret deals and payments will be irrellevant as it is not money based.

I do hope that our RFL/SL develop a replacement system for our needs and not just copy the NRL's ideas as they may be fine for them but unsuitable for us.

The SC has failed and a replacement is being devised. That's the NRL's verdict and the sooner this is acknowledged here in the UK the better it will be for British Rugby League.

[dallymessenger]

Cudjoe maybe the next Hanley or Boston or whoever. So which sugar daddy is going to outbid Huddersfield's own sugar daddy Ken Davy?

He might not be as rich as some there's no way any of the others mentioned are going to outbid him for any of his players or any other players. Huddersfield would have gone bust years ago but for our Ken!

As for the cap stopping players going from smaller clubs to larger and more successful ones. Well it hasn't stopped them. That's why Shenton is going from Cas and LMS from Quins both to Saints.

Atkins went from Wakey to Wire as Myler went from Widnes to Salford and now Wire. Leeds have soaked up talent from Cas, Wakey etc for years.

We need a new approach. The Aussies have admitted their SC has failed and our SC is theirs in transplant mode across the world. The NRL are now devising a new system to replace the SC and no doubt it will improve matters no end. The system they are suggesting is an open one, transparent and where secret deals and payments will be irrellevant as it is not money based.

I do hope that our RFL/SL develop a replacement system for our needs and not just copy the NRL's ideas as they may be fine for them but unsuitable for us.

The SC has failed and a replacement is being devised. That's the NRL's verdict and the sooner this is acknowledged here in the UK the better it will be for British Rugby League.

i dont know where you get your information from but its not australia

we are not replacing the salary cap with anything and the majority is behind the salary cap

indeed when polled 90% of players were happy with how the nrl handled the storm cheating