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DeadShotKeen

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2 minutes ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Not sure why you needed to put the "Does it? Why?" bit when I basically went on to explain why.

And your second point is plain odd. You're describing an objective possibility without then giving any kind of reaction to it or even placing it in any kind of context. You're just saying "Well yes, that might happen" and leaving it at that. What does it mean if that happens, that's the point? Can the teams co-exist in the same league? Would they be in the same market for players? Both able to spend to a high salary cap? Both able to offer the same facilities?

What would be the outcomes of that objective situation? Without addressing that you're really adding nothing to the debate.

Now you have lost me. Firstly you were asking if I was OK if we lost a current SL team to accommodate a new well funded expansion team, and now you want to know if I am OK with Toronto co-existing with Batley.

What is your point exactly?

 

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Academies and development can work in a number of ways. Take the Melbourne storm. They are in a city with very little NRL development yet have been the most successful franchise since the NRL started. Why? News ltd have bankrolled them. However they are virtually the fourth QLD side. Their reserves play in QLD. Most of their side are Queenslanders and the Storm has a pathway through which young Queenslanders can join the storm. Expansion  in the RFL can include close development agreements with league one or championship teams. Surely more pathways to League is a better outcome than being forced to RU. 

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10 hours ago, Random tiger said:

Academies and development can work in a number of ways. Take the Melbourne storm. They are in a city with very little NRL development yet have been the most successful franchise since the NRL started. Why? News ltd have bankrolled them. However they are virtually the fourth QLD side. Their reserves play in QLD. Most of their side are Queenslanders and the Storm has a pathway through which young Queenslanders can join the storm. Expansion  in the RFL can include close development agreements with league one or championship teams. Surely more pathways to League is a better outcome than being forced to RU. 

Good post. But again, would fans of the small heartland sides support that? In essence (to develop an example from this thread) you would be talking about a well-funded Edinburgh SL side in partnership with the likes of Batley, Dewsbury and Barrow as feeder clubs at least 1 tier down. This would be excellent for the sport and IMHO a great result for all concerned but as ever the sticking point would be the lack of P&R for the smaller sides and their perception that they are subservient to a new team. This perception is of course correct in many ways but neither as evil nor as radically departed from the status quo to warrant either anger or a stifling of the sport's growth. But such a partnership could only genuinely work if that option (P&R) was removed (as with Melbourne and their feeder partners). 

It thus requires a bold decision by someone at the top, because an endless stream of empty "I want to see these new clubs do well" type gestures from fans like us will never on their own get us there.

You are essentially there but in the end most likely lack the courage of your convictions. Or do I read you incorrectly? Would you agree to rule out P&R in order to achieve what you describe replicated in the UK big cities?

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5 minutes ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Good post. But again, would fans of the small heartland sides support that? In essence (to develop an example from this thread) you would be talking about a well-funded Edinburgh SL side in partnership with the likes of Batley, Dewsbury and Barrow as feeder clubs at least 1 tier down. This would be excellent for the sport and IMHO a great result for all concerned but as ever the sticking point would be the lack of P&R for the smaller sides and their perception that they are subservient to a new team. This perception is of course correct in many ways but neither as evil nor as radically departed from the status quo to warrant either anger or a stifling of the sport's growth. But such a partnership could only genuinely work if that option (P&R) was removed (as with Melbourne and their feeder partners). 

It thus requires a bold decision by someone at the top, because an endless stream of empty "I want to see these new clubs do well" type gestures from fans like us will never on their own get us there.

You are essentially there but in the end most likely lack the courage of your convictions. Or do I read you incorrectly? Would you agree to rule out P&R in order to achieve what you describe replicated in the UK big cities?

I  personally wuld not have a problem if Widnes became a development area for an expansion Super Lague club outside the `heartland' area if I could see that this club would make a genuine difference to the competition's appeal.

If I could still watch Widnes every week in their own competition at a level at which they can realistically compete without the threat of bankruptcy I'd be happy enough.

I'd also watch the nearest SL club if it was Manchester v New York/Toronto/Toulouse for example.

 

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3 hours ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Good post. But again, would fans of the small heartland sides support that? In essence (to develop an example from this thread) you would be talking about a well-funded Edinburgh SL side in partnership with the likes of Batley, Dewsbury and Barrow as feeder clubs at least 1 tier down. This would be excellent for the sport and IMHO a great result for all concerned but as ever the sticking point would be the lack of P&R for the smaller sides and their perception that they are subservient to a new team. This perception is of course correct in many ways but neither as evil nor as radically departed from the status quo to warrant either anger or a stifling of the sport's growth. But such a partnership could only genuinely work if that option (P&R) was removed (as with Melbourne and their feeder partners). 

It thus requires a bold decision by someone at the top, because an endless stream of empty "I want to see these new clubs do well" type gestures from fans like us will never on their own get us there.

You are essentially there but in the end most likely lack the courage of your convictions. Or do I read you incorrectly? Would you agree to rule out P&R in order to achieve what you describe replicated in the UK big cities?

I would love to see a Welsh and Scottish side in SL. It is crazy that we are discussing how we can make Scotland and Wales more competitive in International RL if we don't even have pro clubs in these countries. 

I also think a lot of people expect too much, RU has been engrained into Scottish and Welsh culture for centuries yet most Top 14 teams other than the Irish clubs don't get ant more than 3-7k attendances yet if if a RL expansion club like Celtic Crusaders isn't drawing 5 figure crowds straight away it is deemed a failure.

The Italian clubs in the Top 14 are not any stronger than Toulouse yet we are making Toulouse blow massive amounts of money languishing in the Championship having to fly everyone over to play them. Let's get Toulouse in SL and work to get a stronger French TV deal. Instead we ask the impossible of them to get a TV contract in a competition that doesn't even get shown on UK T.V (other than a few middle 8 games)

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On 07/12/2017 at 11:56 PM, DeadShotKeen said:

Good post. But again, would fans of the small heartland sides support that? In essence (to develop an example from this thread) you would be talking about a well-funded Edinburgh SL side in partnership with the likes of Batley, Dewsbury and Barrow as feeder clubs at least 1 tier down. This would be excellent for the sport and IMHO a great result for all concerned but as ever the sticking point would be the lack of P&R for the smaller sides and their perception that they are subservient to a new team. This perception is of course correct in many ways but neither as evil nor as radically departed from the status quo to warrant either anger or a stifling of the sport's growth. But such a partnership could only genuinely work if that option (P&R) was removed (as with Melbourne and their feeder partners). 

It thus requires a bold decision by someone at the top, because an endless stream of empty "I want to see these new clubs do well" type gestures from fans like us will never on their own get us there.

You are essentially there but in the end most likely lack the courage of your convictions. Or do I read you incorrectly? Would you agree to rule out P&R in order to achieve what you describe replicated in the UK big cities?

I think to answer you need to see what the so called “feeder” club gets out of it. They get some high quality players, first class development and a real path way. Yes The feeder club might accept that they can not compete in super league, but really does every league club think they can play super league? Presently we already see “loan” arrangements between a super league club and one from the lower ranks. Is this proposal really much different?  Australia does not have P&R. However this relationship between state league and NRL clubs seems to work well. 

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On 06/12/2017 at 8:12 PM, DeadShotKeen said:

"Supposing we could find a Koukash/Perez to set up a side in Edinburgh (not unthinkable by any means) would you support the granting of a permanent SL licence to such a side to help establish and grow the sport in Scotland?

And if - as would seem likely - such a modernisation necessitated the loss of at least 1 side from the heartlands (Wakey or HKR, say) in order to accommodate it would you also support that?"

You major on this question.

1. As has been pointed out we found a Koukash and he bought Salford. He could not grow them in a city dominated by soccer so he has cast them aside. As for Perez he has done nothing but act as Argyles right hand man and has been found out as someone who does not want to bother growing the sport in Canada (despite Ontario having an RL amateur scene) but just buy up SL & NRL players. I would not give a “permanent” SL license to such people in a month of Sundays. What are you talking about “permanent”? Does the club keep the SL license even though investors may have walked. You don’t think about what you are saying.

Do you not know that professional Scottish RU has failed because they can’t find these £Millionaire owners you fantasize about? Even in a sport established for 150+ years

2. Where do you get the idea a flaky investor spending a £Million a year fronted by a mouthpiece will “help establish and grow the sport in Scotland?”. Have you not followed the recent history of the attempt to grow the sport in Scotland? RL will take hold at a low level anywhere if there are people wanting to play it, but growing a professional club is a massively different thing. It needs a club to take a Superleague place and SL money, then find another £2-3 Million a year to run it and invest in the local game for 20 years. Then it needs kids in Scotland to want to play Rugby League (which they don’t they play union if they play rugby) in local amateur teams that need staffing by many volunteers. Where are they? Where will the fans come from? There’s little interest in watching the Edinburgh RU club?

What utter madness to remove Hull Kingston Rovers from Superleague to accommodate this ill thought out Edinburgh fantasy? To tell Tony Crossland and Neil Hudgell who have put their hearts and soul, and their £Millions into our game to “get lost”. To tell 8,000 real RL fans they have lost their club to a crazy pipe dream. To knock down New Craven Park stadium as it’s not needed any more.

However your plan appears to want to make this daft mistake over and over again, each time at a 20 years cost of £50 million and therefore it’s dependant on perseverant mega rich owners who do not exist. This is a fantasy that outstrips anything Perez has come up with.

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5 minutes ago, The Parksider said:

You major on this question.

1. As has been pointed out we found a Koukash and he bought Salford. He could not grow them in a city dominated by soccer so he has cast them aside. As for Perez he has done nothing but act as Argyles right hand man and has been found out as someone who does not want to bother growing the sport in Canada (despite Ontario having an RL amateur scene) but just buy up SL & NRL players. I would not give a “permanent” SL license to such people in a month of Sundays. What are you talking about “permanent”? Does the club keep the SL license even though investors may have walked. You don’t think about what you are saying.

Do you not know that professional Scottish RU has failed because they can’t find these £Millionaire owners you fantasize about? Even in a sport established for 150+ years

2. Where do you get the idea a flaky investor spending a £Million a year fronted by a mouthpiece will “help establish and grow the sport in Scotland?”. Have you not followed the recent history of the attempt to grow the sport in Scotland? RL will take hold at a low level anywhere if there are people wanting to play it, but growing a professional club is a massively different thing. It needs a club to take a Superleague place and SL money, then find another £2-3 Million a year to run it and invest in the local game for 20 years. Then it needs kids in Scotland to want to play Rugby League (which they don’t they play union if they play rugby) in local amateur teams that need staffing by many volunteers. Where are they? Where will the fans come from? There’s little interest in watching the Edinburgh RU club?

What utter madness to remove Hull Kingston Rovers from Superleague to accommodate this ill thought out Edinburgh fantasy? To tell Tony Crossland and Neil Hudgell who have put their hearts and soul, and their £Millions into our game to “get lost”. To tell 8,000 real RL fans they have lost their club to a crazy pipe dream. To knock down New Craven Park stadium as it’s not needed any more.

However your plan appears to want to make this daft mistake over and over again, each time at a 20 years cost of £50 million and therefore it’s dependant on perseverant mega rich owners who do not exist. This is a fantasy that outstrips anything Perez has come up with.

There's only one person spouting fantasy here, and it's not Perez.

Can you please enlighten us as to how Perez has been "Found out"?

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5 hours ago, The Parksider said:

You major on this question.

1. As has been pointed out we found a Koukash and he bought Salford. He could not grow them in a city dominated by soccer so he has cast them aside. As for Perez he has done nothing but act as Argyles right hand man and has been found out as someone who does not want to bother growing the sport in Canada (despite Ontario having an RL amateur scene) but just buy up SL & NRL players. I would not give a “permanent” SL license to such people in a month of Sundays. What are you talking about “permanent”? Does the club keep the SL license even though investors may have walked. You don’t think about what you are saying.

Do you not know that professional Scottish RU has failed because they can’t find these £Millionaire owners you fantasize about? Even in a sport established for 150+ years

2. Where do you get the idea a flaky investor spending a £Million a year fronted by a mouthpiece will “help establish and grow the sport in Scotland?”. Have you not followed the recent history of the attempt to grow the sport in Scotland? RL will take hold at a low level anywhere if there are people wanting to play it, but growing a professional club is a massively different thing. It needs a club to take a Superleague place and SL money, then find another £2-3 Million a year to run it and invest in the local game for 20 years. Then it needs kids in Scotland to want to play Rugby League (which they don’t they play union if they play rugby) in local amateur teams that need staffing by many volunteers. Where are they? Where will the fans come from? There’s little interest in watching the Edinburgh RU club?

What utter madness to remove Hull Kingston Rovers from Superleague to accommodate this ill thought out Edinburgh fantasy? To tell Tony Crossland and Neil Hudgell who have put their hearts and soul, and their £Millions into our game to “get lost”. To tell 8,000 real RL fans they have lost their club to a crazy pipe dream. To knock down New Craven Park stadium as it’s not needed any more.

However your plan appears to want to make this daft mistake over and over again, each time at a 20 years cost of £50 million and therefore it’s dependant on perseverant mega rich owners who do not exist. This is a fantasy that outstrips anything Perez has come up with.

I get your issues and understand the massive undertaking building a SL club from scratch is. But your never going to get Scottish kids wanting to play RL until they have a club to aspire to play for. But that shouldn't stop RL as a sport being proactive in looking for expansion. For example we have a club in Toulouse already knocking on the door but we have them wasting time and money in a championship that doesn't want them.

We are living in a dream world if we think we can make Scotland and Wales competitive by putting a few amatuer or Lg1 clubs in the sport.

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17 hours ago, Jim Prendle said:

Can you please enlighten us as to how Perez has been "Found out"?

Having created a local game in Ontario as Bradmac notes Perez gives it no regard, he dismisses Jacks and Dempsey, fails to give Eichner and  Ngwati game time, and there's no question of signing american world cup stars. Still it's Argyles money and he'd like to  just buy his way to SL. Mr. Perez is now a P.A.

12 hours ago, Mattrhino said:

I get your issues and understand the massive undertaking building a SL club from scratch is. But your (1) never going to get Scottish kids wanting to play RL until they have a club to aspire to play for. But that shouldn't stop RL as a sport being proactive in looking for expansion. For example we have a club in (2)Toulouse already knocking on the door but we have them wasting time and money in a championship that doesn't want them.

We are living in a dream world if we think we can make Scotland and Wales competitive by putting a few amatuer or Lg1 clubs in the sport.

I know that Matt but the sort of club kids outside the north may aspire to, do not exist and would cost tens of £Millions to create. 

The forum is awash with fantasists which is OK to a point, but reality is a Superleague along the M62 which just about works. It funds pro clubs who develop decent pro players. They got close to Aussie in the World cup final.....

Whether its the idea Toronto should be in SL because they will attract a Billion dollar TV deal, or Edinburgh should be in SL instead of HKR because it's a big city NOT along the M62, or Toulouse should be in SL even though they don't produce SL players, all these ideas are harmless as fantasies, but once people start wanting to dismantle the M62 Superleague to let them in then they are suggesting something quite utterly destructive.

Bring on the SL clubs meeting for the decision on the new format. Hopefully that will protect Superleague. What it won't do is stop an avalanche of complaints that somehow we will have missed fantastic opportunities to take the game to world domination....

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