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The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread


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3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

The same applies in places like London too, though the percentage is lower than 99.9%.  The experience of a few posters who live in the UK but outside the heartlands trying to talk the game up with their work colleagues, neighbours etc. has been that most of them didn't know there are two versions of rugby either.

Yes and no - as probably one of the people you're talking about they don't really have much sense that there are two rugbies, BUT when they see RL I find they are fixated to the point of blind obstinacy on questioning where the scrums and line-outs are. They (most of them) couldn't tell you what a line out is called, but they know it's not happening. 

It is true to say that the lack of differentiation in the popular mind of many people in England ought to be an opportunity, but at the same time it's not like the door is wide open to walk through. The 6 Nations sets the popular view for most of the nation on what 'rugby' vaguely looks like.

The one thing I do find astonishing and a bit depressing is the number of people in their thirties (my sort of age group) who will do you an Eddie Waring impression if you mention rugby league, when they can't possibly actually really remember him and definitely wouldn't know his name....

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I am devastated by todays decision.Obviously I think its wrong but I think it shows the narrow minded thinking of most super league clubs.I very much doubt the Wolfpack will ever be back as I don't se

Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market,

To avoid the forum being swamped with dozens of individual threads about Toronto which generally all end up heading down the same rabbit hole eventually anyway, we're opening this general discussion t

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13 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

1, i think thats a very subjective judgment. Since 2014 we have seen Bradford and Widnes go pop, York really struggled a few years back, the Leigh and Fev debacle. Swinton are in Sale, Oldham are in Stalybridge, Whitehaven were in crisis couple of years ago. The boom and bust of the championship has been in overdrive since the return of P+R. 

The league would look like it does now, bigger in my opinion. But the focus wouldnt be on Leigh employing players like Jarrod Sammut or Junior Sau or Mark Ioane or Ben Flower to get them to SL. 

I'm not going to go over the Bradford mess again, because it's been done to death on this forum but to use many years of financial mismanagement and dubious decision making by the RFL as a stick to beat P&R is disingenuous at best. Swinton and Oldham have been out their grounds for nearly 30 years now, so i'm not sure how by stripping funding to the championship and removing P&R you hope to magic suitable stadiums in those respective towns.

Leigh had their issues when DB decided he was going to walk, but from lumping Leigh and Fev together I assume you are referring to having to use emergency loans, despite offloading players Leigh actually went into the 8's that year with a squad larger than the one Toronto assembled this year. As tends to happen in sport though(much like this year with the injuries/emergency loans during Covid, when it rains, it pours and they picked up around 12/13 injuries including some pretty bad ones in the space of around 5 weeks. A prime example is Liam Hood, who was due to leave the club with the rest in July but the deal was called off by Leigh so we could finish competitively, only for him to suffer a season ending injury a week later. 

Fev suffered much the same fate but to a lesser degree. York have been a basket case for decades and their resurgence has coincided almost perfectly with the new system which has given them something to aim at and a chance to build more sustainably - bringing in players like Atkins and Cuthbertson who will drive standards at the club for the other players. Whitehaven haven't even been close to thinking about SL since the mid 2000's, unless you are also advocating scrapping P&R between the C and L1?

You keep making this about Leigh, but it isn't. I've already pointed out that Leigh have actually benefitted less than some of the other teams in recent years to this new funding such as Toulouse, York and even London. 

Also - "The league would look like it does now, bigger in my opinion" tells me nothing about what your preferred solution would be, because everything you're suggesting with regards to removing all the funding would result in the league looking nothing like it does right now. I'm not trying to ask a loaded question, I'm genuinely curious to what your solution will be.

 

13 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

2. The level of the competition as of right now, isnt a sustainable level. It needs millions from SL and boom and bust from the top clubs in it to sustain that level. And that is to the disadvantage of clubs running themselves sustainably as they can't compete with the clubs spending thousands on overseas players and SL squad players. That doesnt create an environment conducive to developing SL clubs.  

I've already addressed this in a previous post and I'm not going to get into a circular argument on it. Yes it costs money, yes it is an investment, yes there are some benefits to that investment which you did say you agreed with in response to my previous post. There is a question of how much should that investment be worth, but the less money that goes in, the less benefits for SL clubs using Championship as a place to groom the stars of the future against seasoned pros in a tough league, not to mention picking up those late bloomers like Matty Ashton who prove themselves against good teams.

 

40 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

3. My point regarding L1 is that because it is a league which only exists to be promoted out of, heartland clubs can spend relatively huge sums on SL cast offs to get out of that league. developing clubs can't. That creates a massive disparity in quality and league is a little pointless at times. 

An example here is West Wales raiders. They are doing a great job as part of the welsh pathway. They should exist to get kids playing and get the best kids playing professionally. But doing that see's them miles away from, lets say Hunslet, who can pick up part-time players who dont make it at leeds for peanuts. But doing that sees them smashed off the park. 

That will always be the case though, regardless of funding. The teams in league 1 will still be desperate for promotion so they can play teams with bigger fanbases in more meaningful games, what possible system do you have that would make Hunslet prefer to be playing West Wales rather than Bradford? 

Finally, West Wales are doing a great job? Seriously? 

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1 hour ago, LeytherRob said:

It wasn't even 4 times difference before it was levelled off, but that's beside the point. You made bold claims about the attitude of championship fans because you hadn't properly read my post. 

Yes it was. I'd read your post and responded as such but you just don't like the response. I made claims about the double standards of some Championship fans that have been proven time and again on here on numerous threads. You disagree and that's fine.

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9 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

I'm not going to go over the Bradford mess again, because it's been done to death on this forum but to use many years of financial mismanagement and dubious decision making by the RFL as a stick to beat P&R is disingenuous at best. Swinton and Oldham have been out their grounds for nearly 30 years now, so i'm not sure how by stripping funding to the championship and removing P&R you hope to magic suitable stadiums in those respective towns.

Leigh had their issues when DB decided he was going to walk, but from lumping Leigh and Fev together I assume you are referring to having to use emergency loans, despite offloading players Leigh actually went into the 8's that year with a squad larger than the one Toronto assembled this year. As tends to happen in sport though(much like this year with the injuries/emergency loans during Covid, when it rains, it pours and they picked up around 12/13 injuries including some pretty bad ones in the space of around 5 weeks. A prime example is Liam Hood, who was due to leave the club with the rest in July but the deal was called off by Leigh so we could finish competitively, only for him to suffer a season ending injury a week later. 

Fev suffered much the same fate but to a lesser degree. York have been a basket case for decades and their resurgence has coincided almost perfectly with the new system which has given them something to aim at and a chance to build more sustainably - bringing in players like Atkins and Cuthbertson who will drive standards at the club for the other players. Whitehaven haven't even been close to thinking about SL since the mid 2000's, unless you are also advocating scrapping P&R between the C and L1?

You keep making this about Leigh, but it isn't. I've already pointed out that Leigh have actually benefitted less than some of the other teams in recent years to this new funding such as Toulouse, York and even London. 

Also - "The league would look like it does now, bigger in my opinion" tells me nothing about what your preferred solution would be, because everything you're suggesting with regards to removing all the funding would result in the league looking nothing like it does right now. I'm not trying to ask a loaded question, I'm genuinely curious to what your solution will be.

 

I've already addressed this in a previous post and I'm not going to get into a circular argument on it. Yes it costs money, yes it is an investment, yes there are some benefits to that investment which you did say you agreed with in response to my previous post. There is a question of how much should that investment be worth, but the less money that goes in, the less benefits for SL clubs using Championship as a place to groom the stars of the future against seasoned pros in a tough league, not to mention picking up those late bloomers like Matty Ashton who prove themselves against good teams.

 

That will always be the case though, regardless of funding. The teams in league 1 will still be desperate for promotion so they can play teams with bigger fanbases in more meaningful games, what possible system do you have that would make Hunslet prefer to be playing West Wales rather than Bradford? 

Finally, West Wales are doing a great job? Seriously? 

ive quoted this all at once because i think it all misunderstands where im coming from. 

My argument isnt that we shouldnt fund the championship or L1. Its to question what we are funding it to do. 

Pouring millions in to so that the top championship teams can sign overseas players and ex SL players for a tilt at SL doesnt work for the vast majority of clubs or the wider game.

Im saying that the lower leagues should be funded, but funded to do the things we want it to do. That is to be a hyperlocal, development focused RL focal point of the local community. The funding distributed to these competitions should be used for a very basic premise. Get kids playing, get kids watching. 

And thats why west wales arent doing a bad job. Anyone could go spend a few hundred k renting a football stadium, get some rejects from Leeds, Saints and Wigan academy and be competitive L1 side. But thats fairly transient success. What West Wales are doing is what they absolutely should be doing, hyperlocal, development focused.

The best analogy i can think of is college football compared to the NFL. College football sides are never going to be NFL sides, they dont want to be and couldnt be. They arent anywhere near as good as NFL sides. But they dont sell themselves as that. They don't pretend they are similar.

So when I say the league would look the same, but bigger. Its not to avoid the question. Its because thats what it is. Same teams, probably more of them. Funded to bring through players, be a focal point for the local community, develop the game in their area and sell themselves as a championship club. 

The aims of a lower league club should be: Win their competition, bring through players, own and develop their own facilities, outreach to the local community, work with community clubs. Thats what every penny the game gives them should be spent on. Its about changing the priorities from a short-term get promoted outlook. 

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5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Thank God I've sorted my ignore criteria 👍

I don't like using it, and have to be forced into it.

Using the space on this thread in this way, seems a bit like dancing on TWP's remains and a bit disrespectful to their fans.

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