The General 'Toronto Wolfpack' Discussion Thread

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, POR said:

but that was about playing  super league fixtures this season not REPLACING TWP  and after their demise mark said 

“First of all, we are extremely disappointed to see this unfortunate situation happen with the Toronto Wolfpack, we feel it’s a missed opportunity for rugby league 

“Everyone at Featherstone thoroughly enjoyed our encounters with Toronto over the previous two years and nobody wants to see this happen to any club.we hope that when the world gets over this pandemic they can rise again stronger.

that's hardly unsavoury

It was unsavoury. They’d barely been kicked out a few hours and Campbell was ready to jump into their grave. Playing their games is replacing them, they tried to dress it up as something else. 

[binosh]

Why are we so obsessed with improving the french game? Is that not their own responsibility to do that? Should they not be sourcing their own TV deal with Catalan ?

We should focus be focussing on the clubs we do have and organic expansion through youth into places like York, Newcastle ETC

[Hela Wigmen]

4 minutes ago, binosh said:

Why are we so obsessed with improving the french game? Is that not their own responsibility to do that? Should they not be sourcing their own TV deal with Catalan ?

We should focus be focussing on the clubs we do have and organic expansion through youth into places like York, Newcastle ETC

France, much like England, has its own heartlands area and investment into that could be seen as a branch of our heartlands. Not only does investment and a second Super League place mean more French players are contracted to Catalans and Toulouse but also other clubs as we’ve seen with the likes of Fages, Escare, Navarette, Gigot, Pellisier etc at English clubs. 

A second French side also offers at least two French derbies a season and a French team at home, which offers a broadcaster a game to show each week.  

Investment and a proper strategic plan into France offers a shot in the arm for England. We only have to look at the way in which International Rugby League has grown in the Southern Hemisphere in PNG, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga to see what can be achieved but also what England now face and I’d go as far as saying that if we don’t make changes, we’ll be comfortably the 4th, possibly even 5th best nation on the planet. 

[Tommygilf]

17 minutes ago, binosh said:

Why are we so obsessed with improving the french game? Is that not their own responsibility to do that? Should they not be sourcing their own TV deal with Catalan ?

We should focus be focussing on the clubs we do have and organic expansion through youth into places like York, Newcastle ETC

Because Oz and NZ have moved beyond us. They can have a vibrant, relevant international competition without England or GB.

[westlondonfan]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Because Oz and NZ have moved beyond us. They can have a vibrant, relevant international competition without England or GB.

Especially if PNG continue to develop quickly.

[Damien]

23 minutes ago, binosh said:

Why are we so obsessed with improving the french game? Is that not their own responsibility to do that? Should they not be sourcing their own TV deal with Catalan ?

We should focus be focussing on the clubs we do have and organic expansion through youth into places like York, Newcastle ETC

It's not a binary choice. We should be doing both. 

[Oxford]

5 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Because Oz and NZ have moved beyond us. They can have a vibrant, relevant international competition without England or GB.

The let them and start working on what we can change & with those who will listen and cooperate.

[Gooleboy]

57 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Fev went about it the wrong way. Toronto weren’t even cold and Campbell was banging his drum the same day. A bit unsavoury, that. 

Mark Campbell spoke out in support of TW and criticised the SL decision before any Club was able to apply for the place.

[Hela Wigmen]

8 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Mark Campbell spoke out in support of TW and criticised the SL decision before any Club was able to apply for the place.

And offered to jump in their grave. It was small time, embarrassing and crass to say the least. 

[Gooleboy]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

And offered to jump in their grave. It was small time, embarrassing and crass to say the least. 

I take it you won't be supporting Featherstone's application!

[Dave T]

Ah so, fans across the North of England are slated for not wanting purely what is best for the game, but TWP fans are given a nice convenient pass of 'you were treated badly' and given an excuse for only being interested in RL if their club is in SL. 

Hypocricy, as these same allowances are not made for Leigh, Fev, Widnes fans who have similar grievances. They are attacked for daring to support their club. 

TWP had the chance to get back in after they walked out, the new guy apparently wasn't very impressive, and all he wanted to discuss was grooming products. 

[Dave T]

45 minutes ago, binosh said:

Why are we so obsessed with improving the french game? Is that not their own responsibility to do that? Should they not be sourcing their own TV deal with Catalan ?

We should focus be focussing on the clubs we do have and organic expansion through youth into places like York, Newcastle ETC

 

26 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Because Oz and NZ have moved beyond us. They can have a vibrant, relevant international competition without England or GB.

Tbh, we shouldn't be focusing on the French game to get decent international competition, that should be a nice secondary benefit. 

We should be focusing on the French game because it is an area ripe for creating strong RL clubs with decent fan bases, commercial income and a decent player base. 

Catalans are a strong Super League team, irrespective of the strength of the French national side. 

[Tommygilf]

24 minutes ago, Oxford said:

The let them and start working on what we can change & with those who will listen and cooperate.

Agreed

[Robin Evans]

8 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

And offered to jump in their grave. It was small time, embarrassing and crass to say the least. 

[Scotchy1]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Ah so, fans across the North of England are slated for not wanting purely what is best for the game, but TWP fans are given a nice convenient pass of 'you were treated badly' and given an excuse for only being interested in RL if their club is in SL. 

Hypocricy, as these same allowances are not made for Leigh, Fev, Widnes fans who have similar grievances. They are attacked for daring to support their club. 

TWP had the chance to get back in after they walked out, the new guy apparently wasn't very impressive, and all he wanted to discuss was grooming products. 

Its not hypocrisy to think that the Canadian fans just arent going to engage with a game thousands of miles away that told them they were dispensable. 

But if you want to call them hypocrites fine. Im sure they will neither know or care. The game is dead to them now. 

As for the Leigh and Fev etc fans you mention. The issue isnt that they argue in favour of their club. Its the bad faith arguments that position what is good for their club as good for the game when clearly that isnt always the case.  

 

[Gooleboy]

10 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Ah so, fans across the North of England are slated for not wanting purely what is best for the game, but TWP fans are given a nice convenient pass of 'you were treated badly' and given an excuse for only being interested in RL if their club is in SL. 

Hypocricy, as these same allowances are not made for Leigh, Fev, Widnes fans who have similar grievances. They are attacked for daring to support their club. 

TWP had the chance to get back in after they walked out, the new guy apparently wasn't very impressive, and all he wanted to discuss was grooming products. 

I bet plenty on here who are TW devotees have got their Christmas orders in on line for their Grooming Gifts to support the cause!

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

 

Tbh, we shouldn't be focusing on the French game to get decent international competition, that should be a nice secondary benefit. 

We should be focusing on the French game because it is an area ripe for creating strong RL clubs with decent fan bases, commercial income and a decent player base. 

Catalans are a strong Super League team, irrespective of the strength of the French national side. 

Tbh Dave I see them as mutually beneficial objectives. As you state Catalans are easily a strong Super League club irrespective of their location. There is arguably even more opportunities for similar in France.

Stronger French RL clubs = stronger French RL etc and vice versa.

That said, Australia and NZ have encouraged the growth of the Pacific nations by allocating test weekends, allowing players to play for origin and "tier 2 international" sides, arranging test matches against them, accepting teams into their leagues at respective levels etc. And whilst Tonga might be a result of mass defections from Oz and NZ, there is solid groundwork behind them and other nations like PNG and Fiji.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Tbh Dave I see them as mutually beneficial objectives. As you state Catalans are easily a strong Super League club irrespective of their location. There is arguably even more opportunities for similar in France.

Stronger French RL clubs = stronger French RL etc and vice versa.

That said, Australia and NZ have encouraged the growth of the Pacific nations by allocating test weekends, allowing players to play for origin and "tier 2 international" sides, arranging test matches against them, accepting teams into their leagues at respective levels etc. And whilst Tonga might be a result of mass defections from Oz and NZ, there is solid groundwork behind them and other nations like PNG and Fiji.

Yes, sorry my post wasn't clear, I was referring to SL and clubs rather than the game as a whole. 

France RL could get worse every year but it wouldn't detract from Catalans (and other French clubs) in SL IMHO. 

[Oxford]

Some of the woeful us & them posts on here are quite illogical. Charges of hypocricy and all sorts of stuff that belongs on twitter. I have no objection to people taking the pee out of the stuff they don't agree with, in fact I quite miss that when it doesn't happen. However, everything is not either or in choice nor is it simply black and white or diametrically opposed notions. There's just TGG fans who see things differently, which'll never make them likeminded but a bit of give and take wouldn't go amiss. There are real negative forces both inside and outside of our game things that really need addressing and at times even combatting instead of each other.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Some of the woeful us & them posts on here are quite illogical. Charges of hypocricy and all sorts of stuff that belongs on twitter. I have no objection to people taking the pee out of the stuff they don't agree with, in fact I quite miss that when it doesn't happen. However, everything is not either or in choice nor is it simply black and white or diametrically opposed notions. There's just TGG fans who see things differently, which'll never make them likeminded but a bit of give and take wouldn't go amiss. There are real negative forces both inside and outside of our game things that really need addressing and at times even combatting instead of each other.

This is exactly the point I am making though Oxford. People need to just accept that we all see things differently. We all see the best decision as something different, but there has absolutely been a demonisation of heartland fans, which tbh is pretty unsavoury. Everyone is welcome as far as I'm concerned, if you are an RL fan you are OK in my book, even some Saints fans. 

In my circle of RL friends I am the most pro-expansion, but there are some really smart business people I know who wouldn't touch some of these initiatives with a bargepole, and in the main they have been proved right, but that won't change my view that expansion is a positive for the game. 

I fear we have gone past any kind of unified fan base, we need to stop seeing anyone who doesn't see the world the same as us as the enemy. Hudgell, Carter, Elstone, Rimmer, McManus, Lenegan, Leigh Fans, TWP fans - everybody has their own view on what decisions should be made and they are all valid. 

[Oxford]

7 hours ago, Dave T said:

This is exactly the point I am making though Oxford. People need to just accept that we all see things differently. We all see the best decision as something different, but there has absolutely been a demonisation of heartland fans, which tbh is pretty unsavoury. Everyone is welcome as far as I'm concerned, if you are an RL fan you are OK in my book, even some Saints fans. 

In my circle of RL friends I am the most pro-expansion, but there are some really smart business people I know who wouldn't touch some of these initiatives with a bargepole, and in the main they have been proved right, but that won't change my view that expansion is a positive for the game. 

I fear we have gone past any kind of unified fan base, we need to stop seeing anyone who doesn't see the world the same as us as the enemy. Hudgell, Carter, Elstone, Rimmer, McManus, Lenegan, Leigh Fans, TWP fans - everybody has their own view on what decisions should be made and they are all valid. 

The Heartland fans have beem demonised and have done some demonising and all this rubbish needs to stop.

Taking expansion as the issue for the moment we have three poles, them as do, them as don't and them as yes but "the right way"

No one has been proven correct or wrong in my book because there are just as many failures at both ends of the spectrum.

Your last paragraph is the most relevant to this issue as it divides us just as much as all the others.

From Elstone to the Doc we have been guilty of making stuff personal, misdirected and unhelpful.

 

 

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

The Heartland fans have beem demonised and have done some demonising and all this rubbish needs to stop.

Taking expansion as the issue for the moment we have three poles, them as do, them as don't and them as yes but "the right way"

No one has been proven correct or wrong in my book because there are just as many failures at both end of the spectrum.

Your last paragraph is the most relevant to this issue as it divides us just as much as all the others.

From Elstone to the Doc we have been guilty of making stuff personal, misdirected and unhelpful.

 

 

Fair point regarding opinions on expansion. Being someone of a certain age and supporting a traditional heartland Club, I am not against expansion, I would love to see the game expand, but it has to be sustainable. We have had too many failures in the past. Although my Club has applied for the SL place, I would have no problem with Toulouse being the successful applicant, and if they are, it would hopefully do the French International and Domestic game good. But what is disappointing on here is contributors who are totally against my Club and the likes of Leigh going into SL. I really don't understand why they are so against us having a go, especially if we have earned it on the field. Last year when we lost to Toronto in the Final, we were beaten by the better team and wished them well, and were proud of our team for getting so close. The game isn't all about the big boys and expansion,  Clubs below the SL should for me always have a path to reach the top League open to them. 

[Oxford]

7 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Fair point regarding opinions on expansion. Being someone of a certain age and supporting a traditional heartland Club, I am not against expansion, I would love to see the game expand, but it has to be sustainable. We have had too many failures in the past. Although my Club has applied for the SL place, I would have no problem with Toulouse being the successful applicant, and if they are, it would hopefully do the French International and Domestic game good. But what is disappointing on here is contributors who are totally against my Club and the likes of Leigh going into SL. I really don't understand why they are so against us having a go, especially if we have earned it on the field. Last year when we lost to Toronto in the Final, we were beaten by the better team and wished them well, and were proud of our team for getting so close. The game isn't all about the big boys and expansion,  Clubs below the SL should for me always have a path to reach the top League open to them. 

Great post except Toulouse is no more expansion than your club, & the failures have to be laid fairly and squarely at the door of tha RFL and SL. This is because they've accepted them but never been entirely convinced, convincing or very interested. Good luck with the application!

[Scotchy1]

12 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

Fair point regarding opinions on expansion. Being someone of a certain age and supporting a traditional heartland Club, I am not against expansion, I would love to see the game expand, but it has to be sustainable. We have had too many failures in the past. Although my Club has applied for the SL place, I would have no problem with Toulouse being the successful applicant, and if they are, it would hopefully do the French International and Domestic game good. But what is disappointing on here is contributors who are totally against my Club and the likes of Leigh going into SL. I really don't understand why they are so against us having a go, especially if we have earned it on the field. Last year when we lost to Toronto in the Final, we were beaten by the better team and wished them well, and were proud of our team for getting so close. The game isn't all about the big boys and expansion,  Clubs below the SL should for me always have a path to reach the top League open to them. 

This is the problem the game faces. 

The game isnt all about the big boys and expansion. However it is made all about the big boys and expansion by the very people who argue it shouldnt be. 

For some on this board, the only reason for a club like Fev or Leigh to exist is to one day have that season in the sun and face the big boys. Games between Fev and Leigh are, in and of themselves, valueless. It is only in the context of one of them maybe facing Leeds and Saints the next year that these games matter at all. If you are a club like Dewsbury or Batley. Simply a semi-pro club existing as the focal point of small heartland town, deeply ingrained in its place and stable at a level where you can exist as a place of local people to watch decent rugby, local players to play at a decent level, then somehow you are less ambitious than some club who stretch themselves to get to SL and live off the coat-tails of the big boys. There is, apparently, no point, no reason for those clubs existing because promotion is the only issue it is the only reason any clubs exist. The long deep history of the heavy Woollen derby is completely disposable when there is the offer of a year in SL. 

And this is then transferred to expansion. Where a club like Toronto or anyone else is expected to come up through the lower leagues, not for any benefit to the lower leagues or SL or the expansion club themselves but simply a hurdle put in their way because that is how it is done. That expansion club are then pilloried for not investing in those off the field activities by the same people who demand they play by rules which incentivize them not doing so. Because expansion stops these clubs 'having a go'. 

The fact is that there are many good and valid reasons why a club should exist. There are many good and valid contributions that clubs of all levels make. Those should be prioritized because they are so much bigger and more important than a minority of clubs 'having a go' 

 

[Gooleboy]

13 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

This is the problem the game faces. 

The game isnt all about the big boys and expansion. However it is made all about the big boys and expansion by the very people who argue it shouldnt be. 

For some on this board, the only reason for a club like Fev or Leigh to exist is to one day have that season in the sun and face the big boys. Games between Fev and Leigh are, in and of themselves, valueless. It is only in the context of one of them maybe facing Leeds and Saints the next year that these games matter at all. If you are a club like Dewsbury or Batley. Simply a semi-pro club existing as the focal point of small heartland town, deeply ingrained in its place and stable at a level where you can exist as a place of local people to watch decent rugby, local players to play at a decent level, then somehow you are less ambitious than some club who stretch themselves to get to SL and live off the coat-tails of the big boys. There is, apparently, no point, no reason for those clubs existing because promotion is the only issue it is the only reason any clubs exist. The long deep history of the heavy Woollen derby is completely disposable when there is the offer of a year in SL. 

And this is then transferred to expansion. Where a club like Toronto or anyone else is expected to come up through the lower leagues, not for any benefit to the lower leagues or SL or the expansion club themselves but simply a hurdle put in their way because that is how it is done. That expansion club are then pilloried for not investing in those off the field activities by the same people who demand they play by rules which incentivize them not doing so. Because expansion stops these clubs 'having a go'. 

The fact is that there are many good and valid reasons why a club should exist. There are many good and valid contributions that clubs of all levels make. Those should be prioritized because they are so much bigger and more important than a minority of clubs 'having a go' 

 

Of course it's not all about having a go. As a game we don't want to lose any Clubs, and Clubs don't have to all want to get in SL, but some will have that ambition. If Clubs don't want to potentially go into SL, they are still important to the game as a whole and their communities and should be respected for that. You will always get an expansion Club with a wealthy owner wanting to get to the top, nothing wrong with that, or such as Coventry Bears doing it totally differently. But it is sad when new Clubs come into the game and can't survive.