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deluded pom?

Tigers Introduce Rugby League to Perama in Athens

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Come on the Tigers! Perama and Brisbane Easts

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Here`s hoping that bizarre Modern Pentathlon nonsense is finally behind them. The Greeks seem to have learned lessons from other developing nations, trying to strike the right balance between local and heritage players in their national side. Not going the Italian route.

I like the stress on Perama being a working-class area, and not for chip on shoulder reasons.

It`s fine to attract RU players to establish a foothold for RL, but thereafter the law of diminishing returns kicks in. The number and type of people involved in RU in somewhere like Greece hardly offers ongoing rich pickings. And if no progress is made in League, people start to drift back. Far better to look to the vast bulk of the population with no previous connection with RU or RL.

Plus there`s the societal benefits that accrue to disadvantaged communities from the creation of RL clubs in their areas.

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9 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Here`s hoping that bizarre Modern Pentathlon nonsense is finally behind them. The Greeks seem to have learned lessons from other developing nations, trying to strike the right balance between local and heritage players in their national side. Not going the Italian route.

I like the stress on Perama being a working-class area, and not for chip on shoulder reasons.

It`s fine to attract RU players to establish a foothold for RL, but thereafter the law of diminishing returns kicks in. The number and type of people involved in RU in somewhere like Greece hardly offers ongoing rich pickings. And if no progress is made in League, people start to drift back. Far better to look to the vast bulk of the population with no previous connection with RU or RL.

Plus there`s the societal benefits that accrue to disadvantaged communities from the creation of RL clubs in their areas.

I disagree. The problem our sport has had is by having an obsession with focusing on working class areas. It feeds into the inferiority complex that for some reason privileged areas wouldn’t be interested in the sport. Football has successfully made that transition and in virgin territories we should not be continuing the mantra about working class areas. There are far greater rewards to be had by broadening horizons and targeting more privileged areas. They have greater capital to invest for starters and often can tap into the high level links with large corporations (sponsorship), media and governmental roles - ie. areas of influence 

Edited by DoubleD
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32 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I disagree. The problem our sport has had is by having an obsession with focusing on working class areas. It feeds into the inferiority complex that for some reason privileged areas wouldn’t be interested in the sport. Football has successfully made that transition and in virgin territories we should not be continuing the mantra about working class areas. There are far greater rewards to be had by broadening horizons and targeting more privileged areas. They have greater capital to invest for starters and often can tap into the high level links with large corporations (sponsorship), media and governmental roles - ie. areas of influence 

Problem is that in every country RU has got there first and cornered that market. And globally these establishment interests operate like a feudal system.

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11 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Problem is that in every country RU has got there first and cornered that market. And globally these establishment interests operate like a feudal system.

Not really, many countries union has barely a foot mark in. It’s that whole mentality which holds back our game in expanding 

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18 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Not really, many countries union has barely a foot mark in. It’s that whole mentality which holds back our game in expanding 

As you say in your other post Soccer made a major transition. But it got corporate and establishment respect and investment through sheer weight of numbers and popular support. If in places like Greece they don`t build some of that first, why are those more affluent interests going to embrace RL. This isn`t lack of ambition just realism.

If you`re saying that for instance Brazil is more fertile ground for RL than Argentina, and that we should pursue all demographics there, I fully agree. As in Greece. Hence the line, "Far better to look to the vast bulk of the population with no previous connection with RU or RL".

Edited by unapologetic pedant

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I agree with what you are saying and if you look at Greece and Serbia, that seem to have minimal "overlap" of codes, if any, it seems it is the successful formula for them.

But I also believe Europe is so diverse that there is no "one recipe fits all" solution.  For example, I imagine in places like Ireland and Wales it would be pretty hard / rare to attract players who have never played RU and in order to secure their existence, probably even have to plan their entire schedules around what RU matches are on to ensure that the dual-code players are able to play.

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I sympathise with what DoubleD is saying about wanting to broaden the social reach of RL, although I stand by the comment that there`s a disproportionate benefit to disadvantaged areas from RL in terms of personal discipline and group belonging. There`s an intrinsic value in that distinct from anything happening at a higher level.

We are used to RU/RL, middle-class/working-class, North/South divides. Without a familiarity with their languages it`s hard to get a sense of how much of this translates in Greece, Serbia, Turkey. In France, the RU/RL split isn`t the same as ours.

My main argument was that once an RL foothold has been created with existing RU players it`s unwise to continue looking in that direction. 

Whether we like it or not the similarity in the games and the common word "Rugby" means that in new areas RL will always be seen in relation to RU. If, just for example, for every 1000 RU participants there are 100 RL participants, it`s these figures that lead to perceptions of RL being the lesser code rather than any feelings of social inferiority. Only by growing the numbers can RL in developing nations change that around.

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, langpark said:

I agree with what you are saying and if you look at Greece and Serbia, that seem to have minimal "overlap" of codes, if any, it seems it is the successful formula for them.

But I also believe Europe is so diverse that there is no "one recipe fits all" solution.  For example, I imagine in places like Ireland and Wales it would be pretty hard / rare to attract players who have never played RU and in order to secure their existence, probably even have to plan their entire schedules around what RU matches are on to ensure that the dual-code players are able to play.

It’s obviously a horses for courses thing. Yanto will tell you that when they initially brought RL to the Netherlands they focussed on union players. If you speak to him now I recall him saying he would avoid union players altogether for the very reasons you have highlighted. I think the USA have hogtied themselves to a season that is so short because of the heavy reliance of union players. Until they grasp the nettle and give players more than a six match season for fear of upsetting union players they will never go anywhere IMO.

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Its a long time ago, now but when we started our club in Wales, we deliberately avoided Union players. We found enough real athletes who just weren't excited by Ra Ra but whose curiosity was aroused by TGG.

Here's something (in my experience) that a lot of people just don't get (even RL fans). Rugby League is more satisfying, more enjoyable, more demanding, more every bloody thing. There's a whole (ignorant) population out there, for whom Union is somewhat lacking, frustrating, boring, just plain unsatisfactory for many reasons. Those are the blokes to go for. 

 But, just like the ''if you invent a new mousetrap'' story the world will not beat a path to your door. You'll just end up with a warehouse full of mousetraps. 

You've got to make people aware, of how good it is, show them and tell them and then let them try it on for size, suck it and see and then take it home with them for the weekend, with a money back guarantee. Then they'll buy it.

Maurice Lyndsay said to me, what makes you think you can sell RL in Wales, isn't it like trying to sell sand to the Arabs? (The Arabs in this case, were Ra Ra lads).  I said, no its not like that. Its more difficult than that. It's like trying to sell pork to the Jews. You can't just tell them it tastes good, because they think there's something ''wrong'' with it. Its not kosher, its sinful, unclean. (To explain why, I need more time.)

So I looked around for the heathens, the pagans, the goyem, the atheists, the non-believers, the ones who had enough cojones, to eat the pork, without worrying about disapproval from the dark side.  I found loads of them, who (as it happens) were on average, much better athletes than the average local union players.

So my advice to the Yanks (and anyone else) is don't start with the mystics, sell the game instead to the rational, the free, the proud individuals out there who don't go asking permission before they come along.

Go find them, don't waste your energy on the hard to gets, the envious, the haters, they are pound for pound, tougher to convert in the first place and rarely stick with it in the long term.   

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12 hours ago, fighting irish said:

Its a long time ago, now but when we started our club in Wales, we deliberately avoided Union players. We found enough real athletes who just weren't excited by Ra Ra but whose curiosity was aroused by TGG.

Here's something (in my experience) that a lot of people just don't get (even RL fans). Rugby League is more satisfying, more enjoyable, more demanding, more every bloody thing. There's a whole (ignorant) population out there, for whom Union is somewhat lacking, frustrating, boring, just plain unsatisfactory for many reasons. Those are the blokes to go for. 

 But, just like the ''if you invent a new mousetrap'' story the world will not beat a path to your door. You'll just end up with a warehouse full of mousetraps. 

You've got to make people aware, of how good it is, show them and tell them and then let them try it on for size, suck it and see and then take it home with them for the weekend, with a money back guarantee. Then they'll buy it.

Maurice Lyndsay said to me, what makes you think you can sell RL in Wales, isn't it like trying to sell sand to the Arabs? (The Arabs in this case, were Ra Ra lads).  I said, no its not like that. Its more difficult than that. It's like trying to sell pork to the Jews. You can't just tell them it tastes good, because they think there's something ''wrong'' with it. Its not kosher, its sinful, unclean. (To explain why, I need more time.)

So I looked around for the heathens, the pagans, the goyem, the atheists, the non-believers, the ones who had enough cojones, to eat the pork, without worrying about disapproval from the dark side.  I found loads of them, who (as it happens) were on average, much better athletes than the average local union players.

So my advice to the Yanks (and anyone else) is don't start with the mystics, sell the game instead to the rational, the free, the proud individuals out there who don't go asking permission before they come along.

Go find them, don't waste your energy on the hard to gets, the envious, the haters, they are pound for pound, tougher to convert in the first place and rarely stick with it in the long term.   

Yes, entirely. I thought this was more or less what I was saying. But was disagreed with by someone who agrees with you. Maybe you put it better. My only difference with this post is that there`s no harm in starting with RU players. In some places, there might initially be no alternative.

Pre-Covid, women`s RL in Wales is a perfect example. They had attracted enough players to form a couple of club teams, and from those a rep side who played two highly competitive games. From that base, if they are to sustainably grow, better to look primarily beyond RU players.

The second of those Wales womens` games, that they won and was on OurLeague, was against the England Community Lions and played in St Helens. There`s always a healthy number of supporters for Wales RL games in NW England, which means we get to hear a strong rendition of the best national anthem on the planet.

 

 

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1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Yes, entirely. I thought this was more or less what I was saying. But was disagreed with by someone who agrees with you. Maybe you put it better. My only difference with this post is that there`s no harm in starting with RU players. In some places, there might initially be no alternative.

Pre-Covid, women`s RL in Wales is a perfect example. They had attracted enough players to form a couple of club teams, and from those a rep side who played two highly competitive games. From that base, if they are to sustainably grow, better to look primarily beyond RU players.

The second of those Wales womens` games, that they won and was on OurLeague, was against the England Community Lions and played in St Helens. There`s always a healthy number of supporters for Wales RL games in NW England, which means we get to hear a strong rendition of the best national anthem on the planet.

 

 

Yes my friend there's more than one way to skin a cat.

In our case, the union lads came afterwards. They began as spectators, who came to jeer. Then inevitably, a few could see the excitement of it and wanted to play. So over time, we recruited some but we were never reliant on them and always favoured players who committed to us first.

We had made commitments to the London league (to travel away for about 10 games a season) so we needed to reward that loyalty by selecting ''our'' players before any opportunist (RaRa) lads who just fancied a home game or two or playing in the glamour/glory matches (cup finals).

I remember meeting Bob Brown from Hemel Hempstead, who told me, he believed he could start and run a club ''anywhere'' (and started Hemel to prove it). He was right.

So I think, we should be actively seeking out Bob Browns, from all over the county/world and like I've said before, cheer them on.

Can you imagine, what our game would look like with another 100 Hemel Hempstead's dotted around the country? See also Newcastle?

Now roll forward 30 odd years and Newcastle will be twice or three times as populous (so hopefully, London and Wales). Can we confidently say the same about our heartlands areas? 

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51 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Yes my friend there's more than one way to skin a cat.

In our case, the union lads came afterwards. They began as spectators, who came to jeer. Then inevitably, a few could see the excitement of it and wanted to play. So over time, we recruited some but we were never reliant on them and always favoured players who committed to us first.

We had made commitments to the London league (to travel away for about 10 games a season) so we needed to reward that loyalty by selecting ''our'' players before any opportunist (RaRa) lads who just fancied a home game or two or playing in the glamour/glory matches (cup finals).

I remember meeting Bob Brown from Hemel Hempstead, who told me, he believed he could start and run a club ''anywhere'' (and started Hemel to prove it). He was right.

So I think, we should be actively seeking out Bob Browns, from all over the county/world and like I've said before, cheer them on.

Can you imagine, what our game would look like with another 100 Hemel Hempstead's dotted around the country? See also Newcastle?

Now roll forward 30 odd years and Newcastle will be twice or three times as populous (so hopefully, London and Wales). Can we confidently say the same about our heartlands areas? 

I`m currently wondering about the "more than one way to skin a cat" theory on the field. Previously I`ve thought that the game`s rules have to be the same, bar a few minor tweaks, at all levels. Yet with six-again, we do now have a significant change at elite level which could well be inappropriate for the rest of the game.

Maybe we should more explicitly distinguish between good to watch and good to play. Ideally they coincide, but not in all cases. The type of tight, strategic game that is seen, rightly or wrongly, as unattractive to viewers/spectators, can be fascinating and satisfying to play in. Different rules for different levels might maximise interest across the board.

BTW, how comfortable are Welsh RU players with the label "Rah Rah"?

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41 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

BTW, how comfortable are Welsh RU players with the label "Rah Rah"?

Oh they love it. Lol. 

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51 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Oh they love it. Lol. 

Another BTW. In the earlier post, you did effectively say you`ve been looking around for cajones. None of my business, of course. A private matter for you and your loved ones.

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1 minute ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Another BTW. In the earlier post, you did effectively say you`ve been looking around for cajones. None of my business, of course. A private matter for you and your loved ones.

You're not displaying the usual fastidious attention to detail one expects from a pedant. Very funny though. 

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