379 replies to this topic

[l'angelo mysterioso]

They'll have the Cougar Park lease as an asset though won't they?
I admit that I've always been against franchising, but I was part of a small minority until recently. As I said to Parky and Dally - read the posts on this thread and other threads. I'm not in a small minority any more. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - and it appears that to many fans it's proved a very indigestible pudding indeed.

it's of no use to them
they could have hardly taken it over for any other reason than to keep the cougars in business
you don't have to 'admit' it geoff: it's your opnion and it's to be respected

[obeone]

Martin L King..."I have a dream"

Fans below SL..."Someone stole my dream"


Simple as!!!!!

[Tipster Ste]

P&R:

14 panicked bottles standing on the wall, 14 panicked bottles standing on the wall
and if one panicked bottle should accidentally fall...

it's replaced with one green bottle, that wouldn't cope at all

Is that based off 50% of current SL clubs gaining promotion after replacing a broken bottle?

Edited by Tipster Ste, 11 July 2010 - 04:30 PM.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Martin L King..."I have a dream"

Fans below SL..."Someone stole my dream"


Simple as!!!!!

correct.
dreaming is simple
its dealing with the issues and challenges of reality that's a bit tricky.

[no13benny]

To be fair, not much has changed. Most clubs in the Championship may have dreamed of winning the Grand Final and getting to Super League, but without the adequate facilities wouldn't be allowed to anyway. This season if Featherstone or Leigh or anyone else who feels they have their club in order gets to the GF they can dream of doing that and getting to Super League. If Widnes win the NR cup for a second time (with Leigh having dreamed about that but fallen short) then they'll give themselves an even better chance of getting to Super League.

Seems like there's more opportunities now than there was before. But don't tell me that if Batley had won the Championship this season with P&R they would have realised their Super League dream fans of clubs like that knew they wouldn't be let in even before licenses..

So what we are effectively looking at is clubs meeting standards on and off the pitch, just like they had to with P&R - but without the risk of financial instability and a 3month turnaround.

Would fans rather their clubs weren't operating within their means and risking the clubs existence for a Super League place for one season? Or would they rather they earnt a sustainable place with more prep time and 3 years to adapt and try to stay there?

Edited by no13benny, 11 July 2010 - 05:12 PM.

[PJT]

I don't know Jonocco is the simple answer because I've never been one to keep statistics. Maybe not too greater a difference in the 60's, 70's and 80's although I do know that in the crazy second division of only eight teams playing each other four times created by Gary Hetherington, we averaged something like 2600 in the 80's. More recently the 90's Rovers averages were 700 per game better than Wakefield's the year that they beat us in the Grand Final, so what could our's have been now given the finances available to employ dedicated marketing personnel? We were just 4 minutes away for victory in the 98 GF. Wakey have never been out of SL since that day despite what some would say about newly promoted teams being not able to hack it. Wakey are not on their own either.

But... the sport braggs about how much it has improved and moved on from those days. We constantly hear it from the Sky pundits and Nigel Wood is very selective about the kind of press releases he puts out. What evidence is there that such as Rovers or Barrow or Halifax and others couldn't do as well or better than Salford, Cas, Wakefield, Harlequins, Crusaders, Catalans. That's 40% or thereabouts of the current SL.

As I said in my previous posting, put yourselves in our position. What would you fans who are in the SL comfort zone be saying?

Top post Terry, some interesting points of view on this thread. As somebody who has only had the privilage of watching my team play once in the top flight, I've got to say I'm not a huge fan of this franchising business. Even with P&R I probably/ may not have seen the club I follow in the top flight but the incentive and the chance would have always been there. People will argue it is, in theory it is but in practice/ reality it is not really the case.

As an aside, had to laugh at somebody who is abrasive as sandpaper on these forums accusing somebody of the very same thing!

Back to the topic in hand, it looks like franchises are here to stay. I'd probably come from a different angle and I think on balance, Super League has been a relative success and improved some aspects of the sport but I've got nothing to compare it to as I wasn't around. Has franchises improved things further? I'd argue not.

[Johnoco]

Back to the topic in hand, it looks like franchises are here to stay. I'd probably come from a different angle and I think on balance, Super League has been a relative success and improved some aspects of the sport but I've got nothing to compare it to as I wasn't around. Has franchises improved things further? I'd argue not.

I'm not so sure about that mate. I think we will have to see. Whatever else though, I think it was neccessary to give clubs a kick up the ###### and start* being serious about running a club.



*there's a long way to go yet...

[Johnoco]

As I said in my previous posting, put yourselves in our position. What would you fans who are in the SL comfort zone be saying?

I don't know is the honest answer.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

[quote name='PJT
As an aside, had to laugh at somebody who is abrasive as sandpaper on these forums accusing somebody of the very same thing!


[/quote]

you really do need to keep up. It was Mr Mullaney who used the term in the first place- my point was the kettle calling the pot and all that.

I suggest you check out your own posting style before criticising others.

[The Parksider]

Over 50% of SL clubs attendances are down year on year despite giving away child tickets and making it the cheapest spectator sport to watch in Britain, care to explain why?

As Johnoco suggests it may be the recession, a pretty big possible reason, but I aren't telling you it's that as I don't know Ste.

My point is that no P & R gives the clubs with a good chance of making it big the stability to do so. Les Catalans may in time be one of the top if not THE top club. Salford and Wakey are City clubs with great potential, Crusaders are a club for the whole of Wales etc etc.

Clubs such as Salford, Crusaders and Quins are also backed by REAL money.

I am happy to admit that maybe the lower end of SL is not so hot at the mo and maybe with no P & R the crowds may be down a bit.

But I am adamant that those who aren't so hot like Cats, Quins, Cru, Salford, and Wakey have oceans more potential that let's say five NL SL wannabees who may in the past have been big fish in a small pool......

But maybe no more.....

[The Parksider]

So, the SL clubs, with the Sky millions, which have gone belly up are, according to previous posts, London, Paris & Crusaders. But let's not forget, Sheffield and Gateshead. Do I see a common denominator? Being a little too adventurous with the dream of expansion perhaps?

And, of course, let's also not forget the scandalous amount of money that the sham mergers of the latter two clubs mentioned above cost the game, simply in order to get Hull and Huddersfield back to the big time.

And people wonder why we fans of Championship clubs, who can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, remain bitter against the system. Before you answer just take time out to put yourselves in our position. I support a club which competed with the best and won all of the major honours the sport had to offer, pre Super League.

Feathersone Rovers is a club which, from an outside perspective, is magnificently run in all aspects but yet the reality is, it has little or no chance of progression to a higher level. It's just not right.

Trojan is right, the sport at our level is losing fans. 1600 last Thursday night for top v second. Has that rung any alarm bells at RFL HQ? Well, what do you think?

I think you like to conveniently forget that many "fans" individually state that they are to walk away from the game due to SL, something you and others sieze on.

When it's equally stated many NL fans who walked away now go watch SL clubs you throw that a deafy........

The bottom line is the clicks of the turnstyle and by a million miles the turnstyle has clicked many more times across the board since the inception of SL which has been a success based on the number of fans attending matches.

Find me a fan who has walked away and I won't cry. I will find you two new to the game.

The stats are on my side.

Quote the failures of new clubs as much as you want and I'll quote an English side predominantly Londoners beating Bradford and a French side beating Saints only this weekend.

Throw me a deafy there Terry?

I have been around as long as you and seen all the wonderful players whistled up from the pit at Fev and Cas.

The internationals that came forth in great numbers at Widnes, small town Leigh champions etc etc.

It's all in the past. The demise of these NL clubs started many years ago. I became interested in RL when Hunslet made Wembley with 14 out 0f 15 hunslet lads. I was chuffed when Fev did the same in 1983.

But your side was dismantled by big money Hull and my side was dismantled by Leeds long before SL came along, and I think in your heart of hearts you know that.

Fev are a superbly run club and very successful at the level they run at. Is that £1.3 million in wages below what SL want?? Who is going to provide that????

Do you really think it's for the good of the game that Fev replace Les Catalans???. What Fev once had to offer (and it wasn't crowds or big money men - it NEVER was) they can offer no more.

Star date 1995 and one of Fev's last really big games before Superleague was against Leeds at Elland Road in the cup semi. I was there and so were you and Tro, and the pair of you knew then and know now who had the money and who could get the players and it wasn't Fev.

In fact only Martin Pearson was home grown that day for Fev in contrast with only Steve Quinn not homegrown 12 years earlier in your historic final win.

The past is the past and times change. Small town success in RL is dead and gone. It's about big clubs and money clubs now. You aren't a big club at all, but if you can find a backer willing to pop £1M plus a year in then I'm sure you may get another stab at the big time.

But spare me the crocodile tears.

[Terry Mullaney]

But I am adamant that those who aren't so hot like Cats, Quins, Cru, Salford, and Wakey have oceans more potential that let's say five NL SL wannabees who may in the past have been big fish in a small pool......

But maybe no more.....

So where's the concrete evidence of that assumption Parky? I'm open to being enlightened. How can we possibly know whether you are right or wrong if those five very ambitious clubs in the Championship are not given the opportunity to prove themselves?

[The Parksider]

So where's the concrete evidence of that assumption Parky? I'm open to being enlightened. How can we possibly know whether you are right or wrong if those five very ambitious clubs in the Championship are not given the opportunity to prove themselves?

I'm happy for a club to try to prove themselves every year Terry until the bare facts are accepted by all.

But I am not happy to see that happen at the expense of Quins, Crusaders, Les Cats or Salford and Wakey in a new stadium.

RL is desperate to expand and find new big clubs beyond the usual, and these sort of clubs can be big and need to be given the chance.

The record of small town clubs like Oldham, Halifax, Workington and latterly Leigh is there to see, but again I am happy and have said in the past that everyone who wants SL should be given a go.

HKR are cited as a small club who made it. I don't think so, Hudgell provides £1million a year.

I have no concrete evidence that Fev won't do a Wakey and hang about the bottom end of SL for years to come.

But it's time for you to provide some facts like if you were promoted where would you find the money to compete, or the players to help you compete????

[Terry Mullaney]

I think you like to conveniently forget that many "fans" individually state that they are to walk away from the game due to SL, something you and others sieze on.

When it's equally stated many NL fans who walked away now go watch SL clubs you throw that a deafy........

No I don't throw a deafy. That's my concern actually. I have a two year old grandson who loves to kick a soccer ball and equally loves to have a rugby ball in his hands. He shouts 'c'mon Rovers, score a try! Doesn't know what it means but the seeds are sown. My worry is that when he gets to school and most of his pals are fans of a SL side how do I get him to remain Rovers?

Find me a fan who has walked away and I won't cry. I will find you two new to the game.

The stats are on my side.

You don't know that to be true Parky, it's impossible.

Quote the failures of new clubs as much as you want and I'll quote an English side predominantly Londoners beating Bradford and a French side beating Saints only this weekend.
Throw me a deafy there Terry?

Sorry Parky but the failures are the expansion clubs, like it or not. Gone bust form SL - London, Paris, Crusaders, Gateshead. Like it or not it's fact. But carry on with chasing the impossible dream of SL one day even matching Rugby Union let alone overtaking it. Why not make our game as strong as it can possibly be for the few in this country who do appreciate it? Let's build on the latent support out there and get them back into the fold. They do exist and would return to the terraces if there was hope for their clubs and that's a fact. Rovers attracted 700 per game more than Wakefield in 1998 when they were elevated to SL with an average attendance of over 4000. What evidence do you have to suggest that Rovers couldn't have emulated or bettered Wakefield's ever present existence in SL had they have held out for the last 4 minutes of that epic Grand Final?

But spare me the crocodile tears.

No crocodile tears Parky, I'm genuine RL through and through. As I said previously, you're chasing an impossible dream. Very sad.

[Bomb Jack]

I personally think a three year Licence is too long.

They should make it two max.

[The Parksider]

Sorry Parky but the failures are the expansion clubs, like it or not. Gone bust form SL - London, Paris, Crusaders, Gateshead. Like it or not it's fact. But carry on with chasing the impossible dream of SL one day even matching Rugby Union let alone overtaking it. Why not make our game as strong as it can possibly be for the few in this country who do appreciate it? Let's build on the latent support out there and get them back into the fold. They do exist and would return to the terraces if there was hope for their clubs and that's a fact. Rovers attracted 700 per game more than Wakefield in 1998 when they were elevated to SL with an average attendance of over 4000. What evidence do you have to suggest that Rovers couldn't have emulated or bettered Wakefield's ever present existence in SL had they have held out for the last 4 minutes of that epic Grand Final?

Well that's your position and fair enough if you believe that a northern Rugby League of say 14 clubs in division one and 14 in division 2 with P & R will see fans "return back to the terraces". You take the position that Superleague is what is killing the game, I take the position that Superleague is what is saving the game - we're pretty much poles apart.

But sometimes the statements made like "fans walking away" is just nonsense. The aggregate crowds for pro and semi pro RL in this country have gone up considerably since 1996. Attendances at clubs are as well documented now as they were pre-SL and Rugby league not only draws more fans to games, it gets them paying from their armchairs too.

Same with citing expansion clubs going bust. All clubs are well capable of going bust. Bramley, York, Rochdale, Halifax, Keighley, Widnes.....the list goes on and on. It's another non point Terry, the M62 is just as capable of throwing up failure as the expansion lands beyond it.

It may well have been that if Fev could have made it to SL at the expense of wakefield they could have hung about SL ever since. They would like Wakefield have, needed to ship in the Aussies to keep the boat afloat. They would like Wakey have had to pay well short of the SL salary cap to keep afloat financially and they would like Wakefield have posted some pretty low attendances, but managed. It didn't work out that way though. Having said that I believe Rovers would have a chance in Superleague if Cas and Wakey were to go out, so I hope your club will apply, but succeeding in SL will need your club to pinch the fans and best youngsters from Wakey and Cas and that just isn't the form of club you want.

[shrek]

I personally think a three year Licence is too long.

They should make it two max.

Will the true test of that not come when you come up in the next round then have 3 years to build a competitive squad?

Until we've had a couple of rounds of it I don't see how we can really judge/measure if it has been a success.

[Terry Mullaney]

Well that's your position and fair enough if you believe that a northern Rugby League of say 14 clubs in division one and 14 in division 2 with P & R will see fans "return back to the terraces". You take the position that Superleague is what is killing the game, I take the position that Superleague is what is saving the game - we're pretty much poles apart.

I'm not saying SL is killing the game Parky, it's a fantastic concept if run fairly for all clubs with the ambition to be a part of it. The sport isn't big enough or powerful enough to warrant elitism within it, in my opinion.

We are poles apart in our thinking on this subject Parky but the great thing is that we can agree to disagree in a civilised manner, both respecting each others point of view.

[Trojan]

many other clubs were allowed to disappear.
Bradfordweren't because of what they represented and because of their potential, same with Hull and Hudds a generation later.

So your argument is that Hull and Huddersfield are special cases and should be allowed a spot in SL as such? What about the rest - are they all special cases who can't be allowed to fail? And what about the other "special cases" - Featherstone Rovers the team from a little town that's won every domestic honour the game has - aren't they a special case? Or Widnes, the team from a fairly small town who were the cup kings, champions and World Club Champions - surely they're a special case too. What about Workington and Whitehaven who represent the pro game in a hotbed of amateur RL - well them too - why not? Batley - first winners of the NU Challenge Cup - can't for get them. Where do you stop?

Bradford were in the Championship final in 1952, and went out of existence 12 years later - less time than the SL has been in existence for
Franchising is a snapshot of the way things are now - and freezes them in as in aspic - no change. No change - no progress.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

So your argument is that Hull and Huddersfield are special cases and should be allowed a spot in SL as such? What about the rest - are they all special cases who can't be allowed to fail? And what about the other "special cases" - Featherstone Rovers the team from a little town that's won every domestic honour the game has - aren't they a special case? Or Widnes, the team from a fairly small town who were the cup kings, champions and World Club Champions - surely they're a special case too. What about Workington and Whitehaven who represent the pro game in a hotbed of amateur RL - well them too - why not? Batley - first winners of the NU Challenge Cup - can't for get them. Where do you stop?

Bradford were in the Championship final in 1952, and went out of existence 12 years later - less time than the SL has been in existence for
Franchising is a snapshot of the way things are now - and freezes them in as in aspic - no change. No change - no progress.

no I'm saying that if the 'solidarity' you speak of was based on altruistic grounds, the clubs that have diappeared before and since Bradford Northern, wouldn't have been allowed to. Northern were revived because it made sense, unlike say St helens Recs.
I think Hudds and Hull FC merit a place in SL because of what they bring to the competition.

Edit: Once again, keighley a non SL club were save by the RFL as recently as last year, because it was a good idea.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 12 July 2010 - 02:13 PM.