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Member Since 14 Apr 2004
Offline Last Active Today, 01:59 PM

#2965198 The all-new never-ending League Restructure debate thread

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on Today, 12:29 PM

A sort of conversation follows between a Non RL fan but thinking of watching his local team and a regular RL fan who thinks he understands the system......

I hear you have P&R back in RL

Yep, well they like to call it jeopardy.

Whys that then

Well ermm how best can I explain… it gives the chance of P&R but isn’t as straight forward as top and bottom teams being promoted or relegated.

Hows it work then

Depends upon which league…

Oh, we have a team down here,,, oxford something. How that league work

After all games are played the team finishing top and second play-off for promotion. The winner gets promoted. However, the team that loses gets a second chance. They play with the teams that finished 3rd, 4th, and 5th in a set of play offs – like football play-offs for promotion. The losing team from earlier plays 5th and 3rd plays 4th. The two winners play-off in a promotion final.

Could you repeat that…..

Yada yada yada…

That the same for the other league then…

Erm no… they do something different. The top 4 are joined by the bottom 4 of the Super League. They play in a what is known as the qualifiers league (I think) for 4 teams to be in the following seasons super league.

How that work then… the top 4 get to play in SL then,,,

Mmmmm not quite but almost….. The top 3 are into SL… But the 4th placed team plays the 5th placed team in a play-off for the ermmmm 4th team to be promoted.

So the 4th place get promoted…

Errr sorry...... for the 4th team of the 4 that get to play in Super League the following season is determined by a 4th and 5th place play-off.

OK ,,, pause so 4 teams are promoted then

Mmm well it could be the same 4 teams that were in Super League that get to play in Super League the next season

Oh … so where is the promotion then…

Well it could be one of the team in the lower league that wins one of the four places. Remember there are 8 teams made up of bottom 4 from Super League and 4 from the lower league.. the championship…

Oh,,,pause….. scratching head…well ..oh lets not go through it again… but why does the top team have to play the second team again…

That was the other league known as championship league one for promotion to the championship. Not sure but I think its because not all teams play the same fixtures. That is a team can play different set of teams twice than the other team…


They don’t play all other teams twice… they may play some teams once. The other team may play a different set of teams twice….

Yeah right….. I’ll not bother....... get the pints in...

PS. I'm sure someone can come up with a better conversational exchange...

I think if you go in with an agenda to over complicate and talk it down to non-RL fans, they're gonna look down on it as well.

You've basically tried your hardest to put this guy off because you're not a fan of the structure. Well done.

#2964491 smoking at stadiums

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on Yesterday, 06:52 AM

I think l'ang's point is that, unless a smoker stands about 50 yards from the nearest person, people will always be affected by any smoke produced directly or second hand passively from them. Unless they're a clumsy bleeder, you're not likely to get splashed by alcohol, even if somebody is drinking right next to you.

Like has already been mentioned, if you willingly attend a none smoking facility, you should be prepared to do without smoking for as long as you're on the premises of said facility.

I once saw a bloke take a child of around 18 months old into one of the traps at the KC stadium. You could see the smoke coming out over the top of said trap for the duration of his cigarette. He then emerged stinking of smoke, still carrying the child who, presumably, had to "enjoy" the smoke as well. I found this behaviour appalling and an utterly selfish act.

(and before anyone asks, I was suffering with a touch of food poisoning at the time and, rather desperately, needed to spend a little time on my own... :ph34r: )

I think they raises other issues then to be honest, like banning children from the smoking area. I agree, totally selfish.

But I think the result of "second hand drinking" is more than second hand smoking. I reckon it causes far more problems than smoking ever will.

#2963659 Why shout SET before running forwards/backwards in a line

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 22 July 2014 - 04:45 PM

If my child is say 10 years old and hes quite new to rugby about to play in his first match......

Going up against a hardened team who have been playing since about age 5 is not really something I would like to try myself let alone ask a 10 year old kid.

Using padding doesn't sound like a bad idea - the use it in American Football, Taekqwondo, Karate competitions. Its not as daft idea as you think. It would be interesting to raise a team from age 5 using padding, gradually removing the padding as they approach age 6 and 7 and see how much more confiident and better tacklers they become compared to kids that start off with no padding. I wouldn't say this approach is the same as wrapping them in cotton wool would you?

But in the real world, you would get children coming in at age 6, 7, 8, 9 and in your example 10 years old. When do you remove the padding? Do they all remove it at the same time? Or after they've worn it after so long?


The social impact of coming in late and having to wear all that padding would be enough to stop anyone new wanting to play the game anyway. Not to mention the points people have made earlier about people becoming reckless when they feel "invulnerable" and end up getting themselves (and others) injured still. And also, it won't make a jot of difference to joint injuries like you mentioned earlier.


And again, you still haven't explained who would pick up the tab for these tackle suits?


It's a completely unrealistic idea.


You're an outsider looking in and trying to be innovative. That's great, and I encourage that. But you can't just assert your opinion and not back it up, and ignore other people's opinions. You said you wanted to talk to the experts. I'm not saying I am one, but I've got a degree in sport, I'm a teacher of children the age you describe, and have many years of coaching experience in numerous sports. There are others on this forum with even more experience than me, and more specific to the sport. You won't find anyone that thinks it's justifiable to spend over half a grand on tackle suits to teach kids to fall.


I think you just need to call this one a bad idea, accept why, and move on.

#2962754 Retirement

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 21 July 2014 - 09:47 AM

I'm semi-retired!

I've not played in a year and a half since I went over on my ankle. I keep thinking it will get better, and I'll have a dabble again, but I probably won't now. (Have very little time with my job anyways).

Thinking of trying wheelchair RL. Take the ankle out of the equation!

#2962745 Why shout SET before running forwards/backwards in a line

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 21 July 2014 - 09:42 AM

i've been thinking about this. surely some drilling is beneficial? like how to tackle properly, how to take a high ball, even how to pick the ball up properly. maybe as a warm up?

Oh absolutely. But not exclusively. Very minimal drilling so children can understand the technical aspect of a skill. You then put it into challenges and game-based activities where they are rewarded for using that skill.

I usually build my sessions around the three Cs - Coach, Control, Compete.

As for the warm up, if you drill kids in a warm up, they'll switch off before they've started. There are lots of opinions on warm ups, and academically these are changing all the time to the point where many see little difference (injury wise) in children warming up. The biggest part of the warm up for me is switching your head on, and you'll only do that in game-related activities IMO.

Oh, and for any prospective coaches out there, DO NOT do static stretches as part of a warm up (hold a muscle in position, e.g. bending to touch your toes and holding there). It's pointless unless you're trying to increase flexibility. Cool down, yes (those stretches help to reduce lactic acid).

#2962732 Why shout SET before running forwards/backwards in a line

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 21 July 2014 - 09:26 AM

To Latch, regarding protective falling, I presume you mean fully padded up and/or with a soft-mat to fall on to practice tackling. My son's club (age 10s) has never provided any protection like this and another reason why I am currently looking elsewhere.

You can't wrap kids up on bubble wrap. Kids need to be kids.
The risk of injury during protective falling exercises is incredibly low if done on grass. At the end of the day, that's where they'll be falling so they need to get used to it. I'm not quote sure what area they'd benefit from being padded in here to be honest?

Well if you've never trained kids with and without padding how would you know if padding is a good idea or not. Stop acting like you know when your not an expert. Are you saying that there are no expert child coaches in these forums? of course not.

If you want to get advice on these forums, there's a certain etiquette. Having a go at anyone and everyone isn't one of them.

Personal judgement and experience is enough to tell you you don't need to do something without actually trying and failing. I know without trying that it's not a good idea to give children knives in class for example!

One thing you'll need to learn to do, if you want to be a coach, is accept feedback without taking it personally. Some ideas are good. Some aren't. You don't need to be a qualified expert with a doctorate to be able to give feedback. Listen to their argument, and if it's justified, take their advice.

Oh, and lastly, anyone can say they're anything on the internet.

If you've ever trained in other high contact sports like Taekwondo, Karate, Judo, Jui-Jitsu etc, they all start with padding/thick mats. Theres no shame in that. Before long, after building up some confidence they reduce the padding, use thinner mats or even no mats etc...
If you trained say Jui-Jitsu to anyone on concrete floors with no padding (like in a real fight), many of the potential black belts would quit within a couple of sessions and would be put off for life.
Theres no shame is using padding at first - it makes it more fun for the kids.

You're talking about combat sports here, where the children are meant to hit each other. They actually compete on padding as well IIRC. There are certain risks about training on concrete, and that's where you risk assess.

In relation to your point about using padding though, clubs don't have a lot of resources to spend on things where there is low risk and deemed unnecessary. Plus, it takes more time to set up. You've only got so much time to spend and you don't want to do it sorting out equipment.

#2960712 Why shout SET before running forwards/backwards in a line

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 17 July 2014 - 08:14 PM

Could the problem be that the Level 2 coaching course is geared towards adults as opposed to making it fun.

This is a huge issue in coach education in rugby league IMO. As someone who has coaching experience and certificates in many sports (part of my old job role), sports like basketball, tennis, squash and even fencing have tailored coaching certificates aimed at coaching children.

Looking at the RFL website, they only offer Level 1-4 certificates, and having taken the Level 2, despite it being an excellently run course, it was aimed at adults. Core skills, technical skills, tactical, nutrition, etc were all good for knowledge of the game (helped me as a player as well). However, knowledge of the game DOES NOT make you a good coach.

The RFL need to run a specific course aimed at teaching children, featuring areas educating coaches on how children learn; what is important to get/keep them interested; developing skills using game-based activities (not drills), giving examples and encouraging coaches to be creative; and dealing with behaviour positively.

There would be a huge increase in RL at junior level if coaches were educated better in coaching children, and not just coaching rugby league.

#2958150 Battle for Eighth...

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 12 July 2014 - 08:53 PM

Wire (H)
Saints (A)
Rovers (H)
Hudds (A)
Wigan (H)
Bradford (A)
Salford (A)

Hull KR:
Salford (H)
London (A)
Widnes (A)
Wigan (H)
Hull (A)
Catalans (H)
Wakefield (A)

Catalans (A)
Wire (A)
Hudds (H)
Saints (A)
Salford (H)
Cas (A)
Rovers (H)

Hull FC:
Wigan (A)
Cas (H)
Saints (H)
Bradford (A)
Rovers (H)
Hudds (A)
Leeds (H)

Rovers (A)
Leeds (H)
Wigan (A)
Catalans (H)
Wakefield (A)
London (H)
Widnes (H)

Final standings...

8. Hull FC (21pts)
9. Salford Red Devils (21pts)
10. Wakefield Wildcats (21pts)
11. Widnes Vikings (21pts)
12. Hull KR (20pts)

No wishful thinking there!!!

#2954810 Carcassone in Super League

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 04 July 2014 - 09:12 PM

But. Er. You seem to support. Er. Hull...

Can't help where I was born!

#2954644 Carcassone in Super League

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 04 July 2014 - 04:34 PM

Wellsy, I disagree with most things you say, but have left it as you seem reasonable. Perhaps we can chat next? :D

I find that hard to believe. I'm always so clearly right ;)

#2954640 Magic Weekend in Coventry?

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 04 July 2014 - 04:32 PM

No, but their stadia do. Coventry's doesn't.

There is no sign of an 'M' anywhere.

Midlands Magic.

#2954109 Carcassone in Super League

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 03 July 2014 - 07:18 PM

Wasn't this about Carcassonne? :D

#2954045 Carcassone in Super League

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 03 July 2014 - 05:32 PM

To compare pre 2006 to 2014 wouldn't prove anything. There's been a recession in that time. We're in a completely different economy.

There is very little way of proving this other than a company coming out any saying "we pay X because of the bigger geographical spread" or inventing a time machine and stopping Catalans entering so we can compare the two.

For now, why don't you both just agree to disagree in the absence of proof?

#2953076 Carcassone in Super League

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 01 July 2014 - 04:38 PM

Why not have the top 3 of the Championship and top 1 of the French Elite in the "middle 8"? They have the same route into SL then (they have to qualify through the middle 8).

Is there an issue then?

#2952469 Carcassone in Super League

Posted by Wellsy4HullFC on 30 June 2014 - 04:38 PM

For the fans who are convinced that having lots of French teams is a great thing, will you still feel as happy if they eventually take over? How would you feel if in 15-20 years time, 8 out of the 10/12 teams were French due to rich backing? And that teams like Hull KR & Widnes had vanished into obscurity or gone completely?

It's all very well opening the door for them, but desperately hoping they'll compete and be the biggest clubs is pure madness. They seem to have more money men who'll nourish them, and eventually make them the best. Is this really a good thing for any of you?

How will this benefit English RL if it's at the expense of your own club? It's all very well RL getting more exposure and expanding, but you might not be a part of it.

I really don't understand why you're not more interested in making clubs like Halifax huge, rather than some random French club. If Cumbria vanishes of the RL map, will nobody care as Carcassonne have risen to the top with their Sugar Daddy backed team.

I think should all be careful what you wish for, as I doubt the French would give English clubs the steam of their #### should the tables turn.

If there were 8 clubs capable of being full time in France, they would have two leagues. So what you're suggesting would never happen.