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Manfred Mann

After Toronto and Toulouse, which expansion clubs would you like to see in Super League?

After Toronto and Toulouse, which expansion clubs would you like to see in Super League?  

97 members have voted

  1. 1. After Toronto and Toulouse, which expansion clubs would you like to see in Super League


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  • Poll closes on 12/08/20 at 23:34

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19 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not about being happy for them to go to the wall, its about building the number of clubs in total so that the game as a whole is stronger. Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton going to the wall has literally nothing to do with the success or failure of teams not based on the M62 corridor and more to do with the fact that the game as a whole isn't financially blessed.

I understand the overall view for the game but if I hadn't got MY team to support then I, and others, wouldn't be interested in just watching two teams we had no feelings for.

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40 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

There are some quite intelligent people it seems who write on this forum, but seemingly they have a brain storm when it comes to this issue of so called expansion, I have asked the question on numerous occasions,  "how do we sustain a player converyor belt in this country if we lose teams from our production area's we have here, at the expense of new teams originated in RL barren places" I am yet to recieve any coherent replies or suggestions, look at Manfreds suggestions of "Expansion" areas tell me how it will/can  be done, please enlighten me.

I agree that this is a perfectly valid concern and I understand the challenges facing the amateur game, but I'll try and answer it from two perspectives. I don't profess that these are the "right" answers, but I think they're valid perspectives. 

Firstly, whilst we are competing against much more for the attention of young people there are still, in my view, kids who do want to particpate in sport (participation in Rugby Union, for example, grew 26% at the same time participation in RL fell 10%). One of the issues is that both sport and society is making it hard to do this through things such as the erosion of playing spaces, by making good spaces prohibitively expensive, the impact of austerity and so-on - these factors are more acute in the RL heartlands than elsewhere. 

The term "barren places" is a bit of a loaded term in my view. Yes, they might be new to RL, but that doesn't mean that they are new to sport or new to a code of rugby / football. One of the biggest criticisms I see on social media about what Toronto are doing in their community work is that they are partnering with established rugby union structures. I think this criticism in unfair. 

Rugby in Canada and North America doesn't have the class-system baggage that it does in the UK. It could and arguably should be easier for Toronto or any other NA team to offer an opportunity for RU juniors to pursue a career in RL if they want to. These places aren't "barren", they're untapped. If you put a Steeden ball in the hands of a kid in Toronto, that kid will have just as much fun as one in Thatto Heath. 

Yes, a lot of this is very much a long-game approach and there is a lot of theory that may not reflect practice. It's possible that the first Canadian stand-off for Toronto isn't even born yet, but it takes a long time for any field (barren or not) to produce a harvest. The longer we leave it, the longer it will take. 

Secondly, we've never had a fully professional RL presence in Oldham, Swinton or Rochdale (to cite another poster's examples). We probably never will. To pin the success of the amateur clubs in these areas on the professional game is misguided. The reason why amateur clubs in these areas will fail, if they ever do, is because of a long and varied list of reasons related to demographic changes, population changes and leisure habit changes. 

But let's say that in 20 years time we have professional clubs in Toronto, New York and Boston. Do you not believe that could be a huge selling point for young people playing this game? The opportunity for young people to earn a living playing the sport they love in some of the world's most vibrant, exciting cities? I know I'd be inspired by that opportunity, and I'm sure many others would as well. If kids from Oldham, Swinton and Rochdale go on to become stars of this sport in Boston or New York, that's a fantastic thing in my view. 

Edited by whatmichaelsays
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23 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

I understand the overall view for the game but if I hadn't got MY team to support then I, and others, wouldn't be interested in just watching two teams we had no feelings for.

That's fine, I totally agree. I just want more people to have their own team to support! Just as you won't have interest in London vs Toronto, its no wonder people there wouldn't have interest in Wigan vs Hull KR!

That's why I think Internationals and having more clubs is the future in terms of giving people a team to support.

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15 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Nope. You like it being organised to suit you. You are the one who wants it organised to suit them.

And then get weepy when that's pointed out.

That's a bit strong from someone who has so vociferously remarked on the Brexit issue because it didn't suit you.

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2 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Oh, you know what my family want now do you ???

You might well tell your family what they must do, I don't.

My word, you are incredibly defensive. Would your family not like a trip on holiday to the south of France or Toronto? Do they not like the rugby? Or do you just not want to go to the rugby with them?

The trick is to get them to think it's their idea 😉


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5 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Yes, some clubs rely on benefactors in sports other that RL. That doesn't make the situation in RL any more healthy. Nor does it prove one way or another the viability of Toronto or any other expansion club as sustainable long-term businesses. 

Not in North America they don't.  The business model of major North American pro leagues has made franchises in those leagues a profitable investment which makes money for their owners, decades of experience with it in at least five sports has proven that.

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4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not about being happy for them to go to the wall, its about building the number of clubs in total so that the game as a whole is stronger. Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton going to the wall has literally nothing to do with the success or failure of teams not based on the M62 corridor and more to do with the fact that the game as a whole isn't financially blessed.

Also, dare I say it, due to the game's small footprint and low profile.  In this era when the general sports follower in the UK sees continental-scale competitions like the Champions League, UEFA  League and Heineken Cup as standard fare, why would youngsters want to play a sport which doesn't have anything like that?

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59 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Also, dare I say it, due to the game's small footprint and low profile.  In this era when the general sports follower in the UK sees continental-scale competitions like the Champions League, UEFA  League and Heineken Cup as standard fare, why would youngsters want to play a sport which doesn't have anything like that?

I wouldn't disagree with the sentiment. 

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6 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Why is it people don't actually read what is written on these forums and just try and put their own spin on it to suit their own point of view ?

I don't want to organise anything .. it is already organised the way I like it.  If others wan to change it then they are the ones who want it organised to suit them, maybe including yourself.

It is already organised the way you like? For it to be organised that way, it has to be reorganised from another way in the past. Rugby league isn't static. You want it to remain organised in the way you like, although by the sounds of it, you're unhappy with the Catalans trip and a potential Canadian trip so it is not actually organised the way you like.

If you only follow the game so you can attend every match, it's a very selfish approach to the sport and very localised. The sport cannot grow with localised thinking. 

Why should anyone care about the opinion of someone who clearly wants the sport to only suit themself?

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4 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

My word, you are incredibly defensive. Would your family not like a trip on holiday to the south of France or Toronto? Do they not like the rugby? Or do you just not want to go to the rugby with them?

The trick is to get them to think it's their idea 😉

If you mean being incredibly defensive against someone who (1) tries to tell me where and when my family and I should go on holiday, (2) seems to believe that tricking their family is an ideal way to do things just to satisfy their own desires then, yes, I am glad I'm defensive against those types. 

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Why should anyone care about the opinion of someone who clearly wants the sport to only suit themself?

Why should anyone care about the opinion of someone who - although they might disagree with the alternative viewpoint - obviously just doesn't want to listen to someone else's view  ... even to the extent of trying to trick them into doing what they themselves want ?

My view is different to yours .....so what ?  Why the insults ?

Edited by RL does what Sky says
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8 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its not about being happy for them to go to the wall, its about building the number of clubs in total so that the game as a whole is stronger. Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton going to the wall has literally nothing to do with the success or failure of teams not based on the M62 corridor and more to do with the fact that the game as a whole isn't financially blessed.

Tommy you are the last person I would have thought I would accuse of being culpably ignorant, you really surprise me and that is said not in a discreditory way whatsoever, how you cannot envisage that if we do take the game to  multiple teams/areas/countries where Rugby League is a foreign entity, that it will not impact in the first case to player availability and secondly impact on area's and club's over here.

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19 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It is already organised the way you like? For it to be organised that way, it has to be reorganised from another way in the past. Rugby league isn't static. You want it to remain organised in the way you like, although by the sounds of it, you're unhappy with the Catalans trip and a potential Canadian trip so it is not actually organised the way you like.

If you only follow the game so you can attend every match, it's a very selfish approach to the sport and very localised. The sport cannot grow with localised thinking. 

Why should anyone care about the opinion of someone who clearly wants the sport to only suit themself?

Everybody wants the sport to suit themselves , Everybody 

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16 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Tommy you are the last person I would have thought I would accuse of being culpably ignorant, you really surprise me and that is said not in a discreditory way whatsoever, how you cannot envisage that if we do take the game to  multiple teams/areas/countries where Rugby League is a foreign entity, that it will not impact in the first case to player availability and secondly impact on area's and club's over here.

It's all about balance Harry , there is room for some new teams/area's/countries , but it has to be a measured approach 

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9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Everybody wants the sport to suit themselves , Everybody 

The sport doesn't suit me. I'd love to go see every game live. But I accept that it's for the betterment of the game as a whole.

So no, I completely disagree with your statement.


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6 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

The sport doesn't suit me. I'd love to go see every game live. But I accept that it's for the betterment of the game as a whole.

So no, I completely disagree with your statement.

It suits you that the club you support is in the competition you want it to be 

The OP wants the sport to suit him , or he wouldn't have started this thread 

 

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18 hours ago, RL does what Sky says said:

If you mean being incredibly defensive against someone who (1) tries to tell me where and when my family and I should go on holiday, (2) seems to believe that tricking their family is an ideal way to do things just to satisfy their own desires then, yes, I am glad I'm defensive against those types. 

Why should anyone care about the opinion of someone who - although they might disagree with the alternative viewpoint - obviously just doesn't want to listen to someone else's view  ... even to the extent of trying to trick them into doing what they themselves want ?

My view is different to yours .....so what ?  Why the insults ?

I am listening to your views. I just completely and utterly disagree with many of  them for the reasons I've given. Me disagreeing doesn't mean I'm not listening.

The defensiveness is clear. At no point have I TOLD you to do anything. I think your understanding of modal verbs is poor. I've said "would" and I've said "could" but not told you what you "should" do. You've chosen to read that because you're being defensive. For someone who earlier criticised posters for not reading carefully, you could do with following your own advise.

And again, I thought it was pretty clear the tricking the family part was a joke, hence the wink.

You've been accused of being overly sensitive on this thread by a few posters. Disagreeing with you is not an attack on you, so there's no need to be overly defensive.

 

Because I am generally interested in why you think the way you do and have your opinion you do, in an attempt to move this conversation on, can I ask - do you think fans should have the right to be able to attend every game live?

 


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2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

It suits you that the club you support is in the competition you want it to be 

The OP wants the sport to suit him , or he wouldn't have started this thread 

 

If you choose to believe that's why I think the way I do, that's your choice.

There are plenty of fans of clubs that are not in the SL that think similarly.

If the game outgrows Hull (which to be honest, isn't exactly the biggest of cities in comparison to the ones people are talking about), so be it. You won't choose to believe that, I guess.


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1 minute ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

If you choose to believe that's why I think the way I do, that's your choice.

There are plenty of fans of clubs that are not in the SL that think similarly.

If the game outgrows Hull (which to be honest, isn't exactly the biggest of cities in comparison to the ones people are talking about), so be it. You won't choose to believe that, I guess.

No , I won't 😀

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11 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

Names and relevant posts of the few ?

Others, of course, have not !!!

Again ...matters of opinion.

Scroll up to the top of this page if you've missed it. I'm pretty sure you'll find at least one.

Just because some others haven't said anything doesn't mean they don't think it (not does it mean they do), so you can't have that.

Are you not going to answer my question then and get back on track, or are you just going to carry on being triggered?

 

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9 hours ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

You've been accused of being overly sensitive on this thread by a few posters

 

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

Scroll up to the top of this page if you've missed it. I'm pretty sure you'll find at least one.

A few  = At least one ????

 

1 hour ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

........ are you just going to carry on being triggered?

Am I ?  Well, yes, according to you ... and you don't think that's an insult ?

So why should I answer any questions from someone like that ? 

If you wish, you and the few (sorry ... at least one) can carry on thinking the way you do ... it doesn't bother me one bit.

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22 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

 

A few  = At least one ????

 

Am I ?  Well, yes, according to you ... and you don't think that's an insult ?

So why should I answer any questions from someone like that ? 

If you wish, you and the few (sorry ... at least one) can carry on thinking the way you do ... it doesn't bother me one bit.

I'm not actually interested whether you're insulted or not. It is within your right to feel whatever you like. But the overly sensitive, defensive and touchy display isn't really helping you have a conversation with anyone on here that disagrees with you. Pretty much every person who hasn't agreed with you on this thread has accused you of being sensitive or you have complained about being insulted. That's a few (myself, gingerjon and RugbyLeagueMan just from the quick scan back). 

It's a Parksider trick to play the victim to avoid the questions.

Let's forget being insulted or victimised and just have a conversation like adults. 

So, do you think fans should have the right to be able to attend all games live?

 


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46 minutes ago, Wellsy4HullFC said:

It's a Parksider trick to play the victim to avoid the questions.

So one of your "few" tells me I should "lay off the beer and save up", and you think I am not "the victim" by being considered as someone who wastes their money on drink ? Obviously you do yet you still expect me to answer questions from someone who feels that way ???  You might expect it but it won't happen.

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2 minutes ago, RL does what Sky says said:

 

So one of your "few" tells me I should "lay off the beer and save up", and you think I am not "the victim" by being considered as someone who wastes their money on drink ? Obviously you do yet you still expect me to answer questions from someone who feels that way ???  You might expect it but it won't happen.

If you are that easily offended, then there is no point in trying to talk to you. It's called being jovial. He's not accusing you of being an alcoholic or anything, get a grip.

If you have no desire to actually continue the conversation following your opinion that there should be no more expansion sides, then why are you bothering to reply?

I'll ask you again - do you think fans should have the right to be able to attend all games live? 

 

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