AFL Announces Expansion To 19

[Sports Prophet]

There’s your first mistake @unapologetic pedant, players don’t get caught in possession because there are no opinions, they get caught with the ball either taking too long to decide which option, or take the wrong option.

They can’t just drop or throw the ball either, it must be a legal disposal, either a handball or a kick.

If a player is simultaneously tackled as he gains possession, then if the ball remains in the tackle, the umpire will immediately call a “ball up”. I suspect you know this already though.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[bbfaz]

IMO, the reason they're out of expansion landing spots is because they've been better at this than Rugby League. They were centralised, lower level clubs mainly got in line and they didn't have the damaging split in the game that RL is realistically still recovering from.  Also, as has been discussed ad nauseum, poshos in the Eastern States would rather their kids play Aussie Rules than give them over to the demon Rugby League.

However, I think now NRL has the momentum and the façade of AFL in the Eastern States is crumbling. There's no realistic talk of expansion in Queensland or NSW anymore.  Gold Coast has never really caught on and while Brisbane's attendances are higher than they've been in years, they're still 8,000+ lower than they were 20 years ago. The Giants do better business in Canberra than they do in Sydney, to the point where Gillon McLachlan said Canberra is GWS' territory and not an expansion market.  If they could get the ACT government to improve Manuka Oval, I'm pretty sure they'd move there and give up on Sydney.

Everywhere else they come up with - Cairns, Sunshine Coast, Newcastle - doesn't have a prayer of getting off the ground.  Auckland is even less likely.  Team 20 has to come from within their own footprint.

Peter V'landys has said repeatedly that he sees more sense in expanding the competition in Queensland than he does in taking it out to Adelaide and Perth because, in his view, the interest just isn't there.  AFL needs to get away from this obsession with being "Australia's code" and focus on places where they actually want to watch the sport.  Read the room, guys.

So, that means either Perth 3, eventhough both their current teams are struggling and that'd put three teams in Optus Stadium.  Or Adelaide 3 and they correct the mistake they made 30 years ago and elevate Norwood from SANFL.  This is seriously out there and contrary to everything they've done for over 40 years, maybe Port Melbourne.

I just look at how Queensland Cup teams and their investors are looking at getting the 18th NRL franchise and wonder that AFL must actually be a little jealous.

[Sports Prophet]

6 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Think I asked about games decided by a behind on a thread in the Aussie section. Never seen it happen and thought the atmosphere might be somewhat anti-climactic.

Few weeks back, caught a YouTube video of the last two minutes of Adelaide v Collingwood. Scores went 58-57, 58-58, 58-59. Commentators and crowd at fever pitch. No sense of bathos whatsoever.

If you can detach yourself from the very negative viewpoint of “you get a point for missing, how stupid”, you can realise that many sports have multiple variances in scoring options and the behind does reward a team for the territorial win. 

People can wilfully ignore this and see the comedy of getting a point for missing, that’s fine, but there are plenty of matches that are won by less than 6 points, making every point crucial.

My Bombers ended a 13 match losing streak against the Tigers on Saturday night. With three minutes remaining, a quick snap shot went through for a behind bringing the margin down to 5 points. That was critical at the time as I didn’t expect there to be enough time for either side to kick another goal each after that, so when we regained possession and scored a goal with 7 seconds left, that previous score was pivotal in the win, as was every point scored in the match.

Probably the most famous “point” scored in modern history was by Tony Lockett’s at the SCG during the SL war. 

https://www.afl.com.au/video/187958/classic-last-two-mins-plugger-and-1996-prelim?videoId=187958&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1531252800001

[unapologetic pedant]

21 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

There’s your first mistake @unapologetic pedant, players don’t get caught in possession because there are no opinions

You've thrown me a bit with "opinions". I'll assume you meant "options".

 

24 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

 they get caught with the ball either taking too long to decide which option, or take the wrong option.

Sometimes there are no good options in the short time allowed. It's too congested or every teammate the bloke can see is marked. 

[unapologetic pedant]

On 13/05/2023 at 03:08, Sports Prophet said:

Far from a heralded decision in Tasmania, the only Liberal state government in the country has come under severe criticism for funding a new stadium in Hobart, even from within.

The party has now lost its majority in the house with two members quitting the party over the matter and now performing their duties as independents.

Some suspicion that Tas Libs can afford to play hardball now. Would be highly embarrassing for all concerned if the new licence were rescinded.

Taxpayer NRL fans should keep an eye out for AFL pressure on the Federal government to fund the stadium.

[Sports Prophet]

27 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

IMO, the reason they're out of expansion landing spots is because they've been better at this than Rugby League. They were centralised, lower level clubs mainly got in line and they didn't have the damaging split in the game that RL is realistically still recovering from.  Also, as has been discussed ad nauseum, poshos in the Eastern States would rather their kids play Aussie Rules than give them over to the demon Rugby League.

However, I think now NRL has the momentum and the façade of AFL in the Eastern States is crumbling. There's no realistic talk of expansion in Queensland or NSW anymore.  Gold Coast has never really caught on and while Brisbane's attendances are higher than they've been in years, they're still 8,000+ lower than they were 20 years ago. The Giants do better business in Canberra than they do in Sydney, to the point where Gillon McLachlan said Canberra is GWS' territory and not an expansion market.  If they could get the ACT government to improve Manuka Oval, I'm pretty sure they'd move there and give up on Sydney.

Everywhere else they come up with - Cairns, Sunshine Coast, Newcastle - doesn't have a prayer of getting off the ground.  Auckland is even less likely.  Team 20 has to come from within their own footprint.

Peter V'landys has said repeatedly that he sees more sense in expanding the competition in Queensland than he does in taking it out to Adelaide and Perth because, in his view, the interest just isn't there.  AFL needs to get away from this obsession with being "Australia's code" and focus on places where they actually want to watch the sport.  Read the room, guys.

So, that means either Perth 3, eventhough both their current teams are struggling and that'd put three teams in Optus Stadium.  Or Adelaide 3 and they correct the mistake they made 30 years ago and elevate Norwood from SANFL.  This is seriously out there and contrary to everything they've done for over 40 years, maybe Port Melbourne.

I just look at how Queensland Cup teams and their investors are looking at getting the 18th NRL franchise and wonder that AFL must actually be a little jealous.

I think the AFL expansion to GC and GWS/ACT is setting the sport up for the future, but I don’t think there is any serious consideration for anymore expansion outside the sport’s heartlands. Hence Tasmania. People on here may call that expansion a joke, but in reality it is a natural expansion destination which is as Australian Rules as anywhere can be.

The AFL are not dummies, Perth III is the most likely and performance today by WCE and Freo doesn’t have any bearing on expanding north to Joondalup which I liken to Parramatta 25 years ago, only there are beaches nearby The urban sprawl is moving from the centres and the northern suburbs are definitely the more affluent than those to the south.

Where RL has great advantage is to expand into the Pacific (not necessarily NRL, maybe a Pacific RL) in which to keep sourcing players for continued growth, let alone RU talent globally. 

The beauty is, it doesn’t have to be one or the other. I am in a very good position to have very much enjoyed Essendon v Richmond last weekend as much as I enjoyed Sharks v Knights.

[Sports Prophet]

17 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

You've thrown me a bit with "opinions". I'll assume you meant "options".

 

Sometimes there are no good options in the short time allowed. It's too congested or every teammate the bloke can see is marked. 

options yes.

I would say delivering the ball to a contested space is a good option when the alternative is being tackled and handing over possession.

Sometimes a player will back themselves in a corner and that’s their fault, similar to a RL player flirting too close to the touch line and subsequently being thrown into touch.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[bbfaz]

3 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

The beauty is, it doesn’t have to be one or the other. I am in a very good position to have very much enjoyed Essendon v Richmond last weekend as much as I enjoyed Sharks v Knights.

For a lot of people, it's more than just two different games though.   As I said, I played the game and so I don't have a hostility but, then again. I'm not living these issues every day.  NRL complain that AFL gets disproportionately positive coverage.  You might enjoy both but other people see AFL as another establishment weapon to stymie Rugby League.

So... I don't necessarily have a dog in the fight but I see the frustration.  If I were still back in London and desperate to be back in sports administration, I'd probably be involved with Aussie Rules than Rugby League, simply because I am tired of the headaches of the latter.

[Sports Prophet]

11 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

For a lot of people, it's more than just two different games though.   As I said, I played the game and so I don't have a hostility but, then again. I'm not living these issues every day.  NRL complain that AFL gets disproportionately positive coverage.  You might enjoy both but other people see AFL as another establishment weapon to stymie Rugby League.

So... I don't necessarily have a dog in the fight but I see the frustration.  If I were still back in London and desperate to be back in sports administration, I'd probably be involved with Aussie Rules than Rugby League, simply because I am tired of the headaches of the latter.

NRL and RL people complain about everything. So many of the people supporting it have a tremendous chip on their shoulder. If the fans wish to be upset at the disproportionate positive media coverage the AFL gets, then that is something to direct at the media. The NRL media love the off field drama almost as much as the game on a weekend. I find that the off field dramas of AFL (which obviously exists as much as NRL) just aren’t as big a talking point. I call it lazy journalism on RLs behalf. I don’t find there to be any good RL panel shows. 

In my experience, in AFL states, the fans predominantly don’t have hostility for RL. Of course there are exceptions. Alternatively, it seems RL fans are brought up to have a hostility to AFL.

AFL in London is a great scene. I played for North London Lions and in many ways was the best sports club I have ever been a part of. There was a great culture and we would turn out a firsts, seconds and thirds like most London AFL clubs. We used to get 60+ blokes having a run at training on a Thursday night at Regents Park. The social side of the club was unmatched by any club I have been involved with. I suppose it does help that the overwhelming majority of the club were young Aussie tourists, in town for up to two years where having fun was the primary objective of the trip.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Sports Prophet

[unapologetic pedant]

9 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

My Bombers ended a 13 match losing streak against the Tigers on Saturday night. 

When I first encountered VFL in the 80s I got the impression that Essendon had the second largest fanbase behind Collingwood.

Then and now I find it impossible from looking at a map of the city to interpret the wide discrepancies in numbers of fans between Melbourne clubs. Don't think they ever added teams to take account of suburban sprawl like NSWRL did with Parra, Manly. Cronulla, Penrith.

[unapologetic pedant]

17 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

For a lot of people, it's more than just two different games though.  

Saw a tweet the other day with a quote from a news article - "Rugby League continues its expansion strategy that focuses on one rapid growth area: it's own paranoia".

NRL could rue some short-sighted choices if they obsess too much on shoring up the heartlands at the expense of true expansion to "rusted-on AFL States".

25 minutes ago, bbfaz said:

 You might enjoy both but other people see AFL as another establishment weapon to stymie Rugby League.

That sentiment is perfectly understandable.

I feel the same from long distance. Quite like Victorians who support an AFL team and the Storm. Less keen on fans of the Swans or Lions.

[unapologetic pedant]

14 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

 In my experience annyone else new to the sport finds it an interesting spectacle at worst.

Can't believe you leave these open goals inadvertently. You must have known when typing this that most normal people find AFL an interesting spectacle at best.

I'll play along in good faith and observe that the shorts are an interesting spectacle. At best or worst?

[unapologetic pedant]

1 hour ago, bbfaz said:

 The Giants do better business in Canberra than they do in Sydney, to the point where Gillon McLachlan said Canberra is GWS' territory and not an expansion market.  If they could get the ACT government to improve Manuka Oval, I'm pretty sure they'd move there and give up on Sydney.

Have to think that Raiders/Brumbies will eventually get a new rectangular stadium. Would be wise for the Giants to move permanently to ACT before that happens. Difficult though for the AFL to effectively write off all the money they've spent in Western Sydney.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

When I first encountered VFL in the 80s I got the impression that Essendon had the second largest fanbase behind Collingwood.

Then and now I find it impossible from looking at a map of the city to interpret the wide discrepancies in numbers of fans between Melbourne clubs. Don't think they ever added teams to take account of suburban sprawl like NSWRL did with Parra, Manly. Cronulla, Penrith.

The VFL last expanded in 1925, it is difficult to have the VFL consider suburban sprawl at that age in the same way the NSWRL would have 20 years later for Parra and Manly and in 1967 with Penrith and Cronulla. Both leagues made decisions which were probably right for their times.

[The Future is League]

On 06/05/2023 at 09:59, The Masked Poster said:

AFL can expand to 50. It's still the worst sport ever invented. Utter crud 

 

On 08/05/2023 at 23:16, unapologetic pedant said:

AFL is eternal. It wasn't invented by mankind.

God blesses indigenous Australians in the book of Genesis and commands "Go Forth and Fumble". Angel Gabriel descends to Uluru whereupon the rules are revealed in Dreamtime.

 

On 16/05/2023 at 10:48, Adelaide Tiger said:

Not a game I follow as well even though I enjoyed watching the Channel 4 highlights show of the VFL in the 1980’s.

I was taken to the first home game for Port Adelaide in 2007- I arrived in Adelaide in the close season.  Got there an hour or so before kick off and had  a steady three pints.  I had no idea that the game was in four quarters so at the first quarter break we had a couple more.  Half time seemed to last forever so I had a couple more ….. I cannot remember the last two quarters!  Never been to another game.  The game seemed to last longer than a Test Match!

 

On 16/05/2023 at 11:09, The Rocket said:

People on your side of the world should know that fumbleball`s expansion into Tasmania really is seen as a bit of a joke, even fumbleball HQ didn`t want to go there and that`s why they are demanding so much off the Tassie Gov`t. Truth is though, they had nowhere else to go. Tassie: Half million pop. spread to the four winds and a backward economy to boot.

Funny thing now is they are starting to try and create a bit of hype around the `Northern Territory for number 20.` N.T. population 150 000 and dirt poor, it`s laughable.

They recently said they wpuldn`t go to N.Z. because there is no money there. Truth is they would give their eye teeth to be able to put a team in N.Z. but Kiwi`s are just not interested in fumbleball.

AFL withering on the vine in it's own state

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-22/victorian-sports-administrator-calls-for-more-local-club-mergers/102376100

[bbfaz]

8 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

AFL in London is a great scene. I played for North London Lions and in many ways was the best sports club I have ever been a part of. There was a great culture and we would turn out a firsts, seconds and thirds like most London AFL clubs. We used to get 60+ blokes having a run at training on a Thursday night at Regents Park. The social side of the club was unmatched by any club I have been involved with. I suppose it does help that the overwhelming majority of the club were young Aussie tourists, in town for up to two years where having fun was the primary objective of the trip.

Was a great scene.  They're not getting the same quantity of Aussies coming to London as they used to and the ones that do come are on longer visas.  They also started tinkering with the rules so that you could throw the ball.  It's not your father's Aussie Rules anymore.

West London, Wandsworth and North London still have numbers but Putney folded and they have a league where 1s and 2s now play together.  SE London Giants play in the social league, Sussex and Reading do too now.  There's now a women's league and that's the only growth in the game.  Outside London, the consolidation of Aussie Rules UK into AFL London has been disastrous.  There are only four teams left, playing festivals but they can't get consistent numbers for that.

Back when I played in 2009, I said that the skills gap was massive and the only way to develop players was to play a longer season to try to encourage local players to play.  I understand that's not viable but there are public Rugby pitches dotted around central London and the inner suburbs (Regent's Park, Shoreditch, Hackney Marshes, Hammersmith, Fulham) which could be used for a 9-a-side league, though I thought the best solution was to play 11-a-side to Footy 9s rules.  I imagine that's miles away now, though it was viable in 2009 IMO.

[bbfaz]

3 hours ago, The Future is League said:

AFL withering on the vine in it's own state

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-22/victorian-sports-administrator-calls-for-more-local-club-mergers/102376100

The problem is you can't start a local club and rise up the ranks according to merit.  However, when I get on my promotion and relegation high horse, people think I've gone mental.

[The Rocket]

5 hours ago, The Future is League said:

 

 

 

AFL withering on the vine in it's own state

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-22/victorian-sports-administrator-calls-for-more-local-club-mergers/102376100

Having 18 players in a team plus reserves, and god knows with all the running you`d need a few of them, throw in the obesity epidemic and you`ve got the perfect storm for a sport like fumbleball.

I`ve always said it, fumbleball must be a shocking sport for kids.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, bbfaz said:

The problem is you can't start a local club and rise up the ranks according to merit.  However, when I get on my promotion and relegation high horse, people think I've gone mental.

I don’t think that is a problem. I think local clubs have their place to play for premierships in local competitions.

[Sports Prophet]

36 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Having 18 players in a team plus reserves, and god knows with all the running you`d need a few of them, throw in the obesity epidemic and you`ve got the perfect storm for a sport like fumbleball.

I`ve always said it, fumbleball must be a shocking sport for kids.

While at high school, I was playing RL for the school, as well as playing club RL, RU and Australian Rules on the weekends.

I was a pretty handy footballer in all codes, but as I was getting older I was becoming better suited to one over the others.

I was performing best at League, then Union, then Aussie Rules.

From an enjoyment perspective, I was enjoying Aussie Rules most, followed by League and Union. While you may think Australian Rules is a shocking sport for kids, it is thoroughly enjoyed by many in Australia.

[unapologetic pedant]

13 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

The VFL last expanded in 1925, it is difficult to have the VFL consider suburban sprawl at that age in the same way the NSWRL would have 20 years later for Parra and Manly and in 1967 with Penrith and Cronulla. Both leagues made decisions which were probably right for their times.

Comparing Carlton, Collingwood, Fitzroy, Richmond, Hawthorn with Easts, Souths, Balmain, Glebe, Newtown it appears that VFL just allowed residents in the burgeoning suburbs to adopt, or inherit an affiliation to, an established team.

NSWRL in contrast decided that every newly populous area needed their own team. Obviously, differing topography and related demographics played a big part. Aussie League fans still retain this outlook, believing that any substantial area of metropolitan Sydney or Brisbane without a locally bespoke NRL team is wide open to capture by AFL or Soccer.

I still find it amazing that 4 of the above-named Melbourne AFL central cluster of clubs have such large fanbases. Whereas it's easy to identify a large catchment area for Essendon. If we regard North Sydney as a very rough equivalent, interesting to speculate where the Bears would now be had Manly never been admitted to the NSWRL premiership.

BTW, if memory serves, you have said you are originally from the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney. So why support a team named after a Melbourne suburb, rather than the Swans? Is there a dark family secret? Are you the result of evil laboratory self-experiments along the lines of Dr Shark Jekyll and Mr Bomber Hyde?

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, bbfaz said:

Was a great scene.  They're not getting the same quantity of Aussies coming to London as they used to and the ones that do come are on longer visas.  They also started tinkering with the rules so that you could throw the ball.  It's not your father's Aussie Rules anymore.

West London, Wandsworth and North London still have numbers but Putney folded and they have a league where 1s and 2s now play together.  SE London Giants play in the social league, Sussex and Reading do too now.  There's now a women's league and that's the only growth in the game.  Outside London, the consolidation of Aussie Rules UK into AFL London has been disastrous.  There are only four teams left, playing festivals but they can't get consistent numbers for that.

Back when I played in 2009, I said that the skills gap was massive and the only way to develop players was to play a longer season to try to encourage local players to play.  I understand that's not viable but there are public Rugby pitches dotted around central London and the inner suburbs (Regent's Park, Shoreditch, Hackney Marshes, Hammersmith, Fulham) which could be used for a 9-a-side league, though I thought the best solution was to play 11-a-side to Footy 9s rules.  I imagine that's miles away now, though it was viable in 2009 IMO.

Great read. Gladdens the heart.

Let's hope in 10 years time there are plenty of similarly wistful posts on BigFooty about Western Sydney and SEQ.

[Sports Prophet]

6 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Comparing Carlton, Collingwood, Fitzroy, Richmond, Hawthorn with Easts, Souths, Balmain, Glebe, Newtown it appears that VFL just allowed residents in the burgeoning suburbs to adopt, or inherit an affiliation to, an established team.

NSWRL in contrast decided that every newly populous area needed their own team. Obviously, differing topography and related demographics played a big part. Aussie League fans still retain this outlook, believing that any substantial area of metropolitan Sydney or Brisbane without a locally bespoke NRL team is wide open to capture by AFL or Soccer.

I still find it amazing that 4 of the above-named Melbourne AFL central cluster of clubs have such large fanbases. Whereas it's easy to identify a large catchment area for Essendon. If we regard North Sydney as a very rough equivalent, interesting to speculate where the Bears would now be had Manly never been admitted to the NSWRL premiership.

BTW, if memory serves, you have said you are originally from the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney. So why support a team named after a Melbourne suburb, rather than the Swans? Is there a dark family secret? Are you the result of evil laboratory self-experiments along the lines of Dr Shark Jekyll and Mr Bomber Hyde?

You probably have no idea that until the 70s there were two leagues, the VFA and the VFL. VFA even had slightly different rules with just 16 players and played on Sundays vs VFL on Saturdays. So there were even more clubs spread throughout the city. I can’t speak for the urban sprawl of Melbourne in the 20s or 70s. I couldn’t even speak of it now.

The VFA was a very strong rival to the VFL before losing ground through the 70s.

Eastern Suburbs yep. I went for the Bombers as a very young kid (3/4) because I loved the jumpers and the name. Helped they were a strong club too I guess. They were a very big name. Supporting a local hadn’t even occurred to me at that age.

[unapologetic pedant]

36 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

You probably have no idea that until the 70s there were two leagues, the VFA and the VFL. VFA even had slightly different rules with just 16 players and played on Sundays vs VFL on Saturdays. 

I had some idea. By no means fully conversant with all the details.

@bbfaz mentioned throwing the ball in London. Apparently the VFA allowed the throw-pass for a time. This is another of my bugbears with AFL. When a player in possession is being tackled and attempts a half-baked fumbled hand-pass, the difference between that and a throw is very much in the eye of the beholder.

50 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Eastern Suburbs yep. I went for the Bombers as a very young kid (3/4) because I loved the jumpers and the name. 

Where did you get to see them? i.e. when was this and what was the FTA TV coverage in NSW like at the time?

[unapologetic pedant]

23 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I would say delivering the ball to a contested space is a good option when the alternative is being tackled and handing over possession.

That's tantamount to my description of "getting rid of it any old how". And after the ball has been fumbled from one congested/contested space to another congested/contested space, a player who picks it up is instantly tackled and the cycle repeats. Until the umpire's had enough and calls a halt.

It requires a giant leap of faith to think all this makes sense. You enjoy the game, so you are willing to believe. It's chicken and egg for me. I don't enjoy the game precisely because I regard belief in Aussie Rules as like belief in fairies.

HSAT (compliments to @The Rocket), if I moved to Victoria, along with supporting the Storm, I would definitely have an AFL team. Bit tricky, since the one I took a shine to in the 80s was Fitzroy. First because I'm a Swinton RL fan (Lions). Second because they were the only team whose colours I liked. Third because they seemed to be perennial underdogs.