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Kear sees the light on franchising


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#41 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Taking relegation away is like making a tightrope walker walk along his rope on the ground. Ok he can do it and it takes great skill, and I couldn't do it without falling off. But if he falls off so what? Would anyone pay money to watch him?

Excellent analogy that Trojan. I like it. Wakefield have enjoyed 12 straight years in SL and I'd love to know what their averages were compared to Fev's immediately prior to SL. If they can do it I'm pretty sure Rovers and others could too.
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#42 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 04:50 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 05:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Taking relegation away is like making a tightrope walker walk along his rope on the ground. Ok he can do it and it takes great skill, and I couldn't do it without falling off. But if he falls off so what? Would anyone pay money to watch him?


well it didn't work for fev in 83
all those relegation battles towards the end of the season and a successful cup campaign-average 2,600
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#43 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:17 PM

QUOTE (l'angelo mysterioso @ Jun 30 2010, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
well it didn't work for fev in 83
all those relegation battles towards the end of the season and a successful cup campaign-average 2,600

Yeah, we know. That was 27 years since,

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 30 June 2010 - 05:18 PM.

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#44 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:19 PM

QUOTE (Terry Mullaney @ Jun 30 2010, 04:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I also remember Wakefield coming up in 1998. How many times have they been relegated since? There have been several who didn't come straight back down having been promoted to SL, Parky.


Come on Terry It was mostly SL sides yo-yoing up and down like Salford, Cas and huddersfield. Small clubs like Halifax, Leigh, Workington and Oldham have been in there and have dropped out and now we see things a bit more settled. If Widnes replace such as Cas then we will be even more nearer all the big (money) clubs in and just the little clubs left over in the NL's.

The gap is too big between NL and SL for any meaningful promotion and relegation. HKR bucked the trend with 3M - your lads got that money??

Sure Wakey have managed to stay in SL but they were second bottom three times and exist only because there are other teams who are as skint as them with squads as thin as them, to beat and John Kear has been an excellent coach keeping them away from the bottom of the table (and getting some decent Aussies in)

They can re-introduce P & R for me Terry and if they do I hope your lads buck the trend simply on blood, sweat, tears, spirit and endeavour.

But the reality is Superleague needs big money..........

And the likelihood is that a return to relegation will see more years when the promoted clubs goes straight back down than ever before. So then what price relegation "battles"......

#45 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:20 PM

QUOTE (l'angelo mysterioso @ Jun 30 2010, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
well it didn't work for fev in 83
all those relegation battles towards the end of the season and a successful cup campaign-average 2,600


What was the average of the whole RL at the time?

Was it half what it is now?

#46 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:25 PM

QUOTE (Terry Mullaney @ Jun 30 2010, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, we know. That was 27 years since,

so relegation battles and winning the cup weren't supposed to have any bearing on attendences then?
When did this phenomenon kick in then?

the season Rovers played in the NL1 grand final and wakefield were admitted to SL:
Rovers average attendance was: 1,865.
Wakefield's was 1,931.

the season prior to SL
Rovers average was 4,030, wakefield's was 3,233.

IMHO not statistically significant.
other than for a city like wakefield with trinity being it's main sports club, they suck
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#47 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:26 PM

QUOTE (Maximus Decimus @ Jun 30 2010, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What was the average of the whole RL at the time?

Was it half what it is now?

Yes MD, what were Leeds, Saints, Bradford getting through the gates back then. It's all relative.
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#48 no13benny

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:28 PM

I think you only have to look at Leigh this season to see that the tension is still there. Knocked out of o e tournament to gain a licence application, and facing a tough battle to get into the Grand Final too. Toulouse are up against it too, and Featherstone aren't certs but are giving themselves a great chance. Meanwhile Cas and Wakey know qualifying or missing out on the playoffs could be the difference between Super League survival and finding themselves in the Championship in. 2012.

If anything every game for three seasons matters a great deal, as does everything else considered. Fans and clubs aren't used to that yet - but at the next round of licenses I'd like to see some real reflection on key moments in clubs fortunes on the pitch over the last 3 seasons, and off it to explain why decisions are being made. Then maybe fans and clubs alike will know they are being scrutinised constantly and every game matters for the clubs future.
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#49 no13benny

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:36 PM

If Widnes had dropped off completely in performance, Finishing bottom for the 2 seasons after ticking that licence bid box, crowds dropping to below 1000, and every other failure you can think of that will be assessed, they wouldn't stand a chance in getting a licence. If however they had dominated the Championship winning back to back titles with thriving youngster and crowds above 6k, with everything else in place they couldn't fail to get a licence.

So everything has mattered, and does matter, and as Widnes have not done the second example above, Widnes fans should be nervous.

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#50 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:47 PM

QUOTE (no13benny @ Jun 30 2010, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If Widnes had dropped off completely in performance, Finishing bottom for the 2 seasons after ticking that licence bid box, crowds dropping to below 1000, and every other failure you can think of that will be assessed, they wouldn't stand a chance in getting a licence. If however they had dominated the Championship winning back to back titles with thriving youngster and crowds above 6k, with everything else in place they couldn't fail to get a licence.

So everything has mattered, and does matter, and as Widnes have not done the second example above, Widnes fans should be nervous.


But what are you trying to entice fans to games with? The same old, same old. The fans that are going are not interested and think the games lack excitement, hardly a way to get new people to go.

We shouldn't be nervous unless we're screwed. It's massively unrealistic to expect Widnes to get that sized crowds in a league that has seen it's average drop when we are already the big fish in a small pond. Even if our crowds have dropped we're still streets ahead of anybody else.

Widnes fans are waiting for Super League, I know because I'm one of them. If we don't get it next time, that'll be it for Widnes. We're not interested in this League, without P and R it's no more prestigious than non-League football. Like I said, the product on it's own is not enough.

#51 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 05:54 PM

QUOTE (l'angelo mysterioso @ Jun 30 2010, 05:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
well it didn't work for fev in 83
all those relegation battles towards the end of the season and a successful cup campaign-average 2,600

Look at the times though Chris - threatened pit closures, 3m unemployed. People afraid for their jobs, not much spare money - and a Wembley trip to pay for. All explanations. But to get back to the point and John Kear:

""The reason that has made me change my mind about relegation being a performance issue is when you get 10,000 plus at Headingley Carnegie watching a rugby union game Leeds and Worcester because they were scrapping over the last relegation spot.
That's the drama and excitement of sport. I think we've perhaps missed that a little."

This surely is the point of the whole thread - and why Kear has changed his mind. What is Leeds Carnegie's average 4/5k? 10K for the relegation decider. Something has gone out of the game. To quote Eric Morecambe - "it's all based on fear" And that's what's gone.

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#52 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE (l'angelo mysterioso @ Jun 30 2010, 06:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the season prior to SL
Rovers average was 4,030, wakefield's was 3,233.

That's interesting. I reckon it's probably very fair to say that based on those figures there's absolutely no reason at all why Rovers couldn't have matched or indeed bettered Wakefield's SL performance. We would have been averaging 6500 comfortably, in my opinion. But we'll never know for sure unless we are given the opportunity.
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#53 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:33 PM

QUOTE (Terry Mullaney @ Jun 30 2010, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's interesting. I reckon it's probably very fair to say that based on those figures there's absolutely no reason at all why Rovers couldn't have matched or indeed bettered Wakefield's SL performance. We would have been averaging 6500 comfortably, in my opinion. But we'll never know for sure unless we are given the opportunity.


That is the point. Rugby League crowds are not static with the self same people coming week in week out. They are dynamic. Because whether we like it or not, people die, become too ill or old or infirm to attend any more, or they move away. These missing fans have to be replaced. With new younger fans, but if you're a young potential RL supporter living in Wakey Met, who would you support? Wakey or Cas who are Super League sides and get max publicity and appear on TV fairly regularly, or lowly Fev? - And let's face it until recently we have been pretty lowly. If that night in 1998 Fev had won instead of losing, I reckon we'd have made at least as good a fist of SL as Wakey did. In fact possibly better, because given what happened down the line to Wakey with their financial scandal, and new ground scandal, it's possible they without the SL would have ceased to exist. In the eighties Fax who've been described on here as a "small" club were attracting 8-10k to Thrum Hall. Since their decline their crowds have diminished. The young fans described above have gone to watch the Bulls and the Giants. Whether they can recover I couldn't say. But if they remain in the Championship much longer I somehow doubt it. Halifax was a major RL centre along with Oldham and look at them both today. Unless we can give these clubs' supporters a better hope than that every three years they'll be able to apply for SL, IMO they're in danger of disappearing. All for the tenuous hope of "expansion" - much good it's done us so far.

Edited by Trojan, 30 June 2010 - 08:41 PM.

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#54 Jill Halfpenny fan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:35 PM

QUOTE (Terry Mullaney @ Jun 30 2010, 06:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes MD, what were Leeds, Saints, Bradford getting through the gates back then. It's all relative.


If I remember correctly, the Hull clubs, especially Hull FC were the biggest crowdpullers in the early eighties.

Hull pulled some big crowds in the second division the year they got promoted, that must have been the late seventies.

I'd reckon Hull were averaging around 13,000 and Hull KR about 8,500 in 1982.

Don't recall the rest as being anything special, though no doubt someone will prove me wrong.
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#55 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:41 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But to get back to the point and John Kear:

""The reason that has made me change my mind about relegation being a performance issue is when you get 10,000 plus at Headingley Carnegie watching a rugby union game Leeds and Worcester because they were scrapping over the last relegation spot.
That's the drama and excitement of sport. I think we've perhaps missed that a little."


This surely is the point of the whole thread - and why Kear has changed his mind. What is Leeds Carnegie's average 4/5k? 10K for the relegation decider. Something has gone out of the game. To quote Eric Morecambe - "it's all based on fear" And that's what's gone.


There's only ever been about 13 clubs capable of being in the GP and either Leeds have been adrift at the bottom, Rotherham have or someone like Bristol has gone bust. Whoever goes down tends to come straight back up. There's no real relegation battles in the GP save the odd year when someone doesn't do too well and has to overcome the relegation "patsy".

Kear wants to base a whole sea change in opinion on the stregth (or should I say weakness) of one match, his comments are worth the same as Smiths when he wanted SL to reduce in numbers drastically. Two lazy and lousy proposals based on nothing substantial.

#56 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:43 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jun 30 2010, 09:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There's only ever been about 13 clubs capable of being in the GP and either Leeds have been adrift at the bottom, Rotherham have or someone like Bristol has gone bust. Whoever goes down tends to come straight back up. There's no real relegation battles in the GP save the odd year when someone doesn't do too well and has to overcome the relegation "patsy".

Kear wants to base a whole sea change in opinion on the stregth (or should I say weakness) of one match, his comments are worth the same as Smiths when he wanted SL to reduce in numbers drastically. Two lazy and lousy proposals based on nothing substantial.


There's also of course the example of the crowd for the Wakey/Cas decider in 2006. Plus as plenty on here have testified, it's not the same game without the prospect of promotion or the threat of relegation. Admit it Parky - you're wrong. Franchising will, given enough time kill the game stone dead, then where will your expansion come from?
Promotion and relegation are like the heat in a curry, it's just as nourishing without the heat, but the heat makes it appetising - it's the spice.

Edited by Trojan, 30 June 2010 - 08:45 PM.

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#57 LOWFIELD

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 08:46 PM

QUOTE (l'angelo mysterioso @ Jun 30 2010, 12:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
how come that didn't happen when fev were battling against relegation in 83, on top of which they won the cup: average attendance 2,600

what the helll as fev in 83 got to do with attendances in the last 3 weeks
would love to know how you managed to get the role of Rovers heritage officer when you show no regard for the clubs past efforts. your a disgrace

Edited by LOWFIELD, 30 June 2010 - 08:47 PM.


#58 The Parksider

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:02 PM

QUOTE (Trojan @ Jun 30 2010, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In the eighties Fax who've been described on here as a "small" club were attracting 8-10k to Thrum Hall. Since their decline their crowds have diminished. The young fans described above have gone to watch the Bulls and the Giants. Whether they can recover I couldn't say. But if they remain in the Championship much longer I somehow doubt it. Halifax was a major RL centre along with Oldham and look at them both today. Unless we can give these clubs' supporters a better hope than that every three years they'll be able to apply for SL, IMO they're in danger of disappearing. All for the tenuous hope of "expansion" - much good it's done us so far.


Well let's cut to the chase Tro.

Dump Crusaders, Catalans and Quins and have two divisions of 10 clubs...

1. Wigan, Wire, Saints, Hull, Leeds, Fartown, HKR, Bradford, Wakefield, Cas

2. Salford, Fev, leigh, halifax, Barrow, sheffield, Widnes, Whitehaven, Batley, Dewsbury

Redistribute the 900K 14 clubs now get as 630K to 20 clubs.

Re-set the salary cap for all 20 clubs to around 1,000,000.

Two up and two down

That's really what the argument is about, not utter cobblers from Kear based on a one off union match.

However if we follow YOUR idea that more clubs need to be included in SL and there needs to be a P & R excitement to it, the above is what you are REALLY talking about.

Now do you or anyone else think that will work??

#59 Trojan

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:27 PM

QUOTE (The Parksider @ Jun 30 2010, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well let's cut to the chase Tro.

Dump Crusaders, Catalans and Quins and have two divisions of 10 clubs...

1. Wigan, Wire, Saints, Hull, Leeds, Fartown, HKR, Bradford, Wakefield, Cas

2. Salford, Fev, leigh, halifax, Barrow, sheffield, Widnes, Whitehaven, Batley, Dewsbury

Redistribute the 900K 14 clubs now get as 630K to 20 clubs.

Re-set the salary cap for all 20 clubs to around 1,000,000.

Two up and two down

That's really what the argument is about, not utter cobblers from Kear based on a one off union match.

However if we follow YOUR idea that more clubs need to be included in SL and there needs to be a P & R excitement to it, the above is what you are REALLY talking about.

Now do you or anyone else think that will work??


Is what we have now "working?"

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#60 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE (Terry Mullaney @ Jun 30 2010, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's interesting. I reckon it's probably very fair to say that based on those figures there's absolutely no reason at all why Rovers couldn't have matched or indeed bettered Wakefield's SL performance. We would have been averaging 6500 comfortably, in my opinion. But we'll never know for sure unless we are given the opportunity.

I suppose it depends on the calibre of people running the club, which has improved radically since then

both sets of figures are pretty embarrassing when yu consider the on field history of the clubs
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