St Helens vs Bradford Bulls

[Tommy The C5t]

Wigans support is more ingrained. The rise in Bulls support contained a lot of casual fans or non RL fans (like me) lots of whom have since left. The core fanbase and general interest in RL has risen quite a bit though, so it's not all doom & gloom.

The crowds we are still getting now 10,000 vs St Helens, 14,000 vs Leeds, 9,500 vs Wigan/HullKR/Castleford, Bradford Northern could only dream of getting those people through the gates twenty years ago.

Like I said in the post two up from this, we have a solid foundation from which to work on now that we have some excellent homegrown young players coming through off the conveyor belt.

Next year is simply massive for the club and it needs everyone behind it for it to work.

[The Parksider]

I've said for the past two month that the club need to do something special to entice the lost support back to Odsal

What we need to do is go back to the tried and tested route that worked 15 years ago by sending Bullman and the players in and around the cities schools and Rugby League clubs (the club needs to get it's self out there, promoting itself and its product once again) and hand out "free kids entry when accompanied with a full paying adult.

There still a recession on, and a lot of families in Bradford (one of the UK's poorest cities) don't have a lot of money to spend on luxuries like going to watch the Bulls up at Odsal so the free kids tickets will make it cheaper for them to come to the game.

The Harris saga and all it's consequences have not helped us one bit, so too has the ongoing saga surrounding odsal stadium which is slowly financially crippling us.

You haven't exactly answered the question.

You have indicated that when Wigan sank there was no recession, as Bradford have sunk in a recession people don't want to spend their hard earned watching the Bulls struggle.

But the question is fundamental to the success of Superleague. We want a league where clubs can go up and come down and go up again like the NRL.

And we want the fans to be along for that ride. We want Superleague to be the draw not winning rugby as not everyone can win.

Wigan people got that point, Bradford people did not.

Do you think Bradford would be on an eleven game losing run if the 11,000 fans in 2006 had simply carried on watching their club??

Wigan have gone from near bottom back to top again.

Why???????

[Smog]

I'm not going to tip a shock Bradford win as that is probably pushing my optimism too little too far.

However, even though the Bulls have come up short against teams who are struggling at the foot of the league in recent weeks and nobody on here seems to be giving them a sniff of winning, this game could be a little different.

This is the first time that next years players (a large percentage of the team) will get to play in front of their new coach. As a direct result of this, I'm expecting a very creditable performance from the Bulls (even though this is likely to come up short of a win).

There may also be some players on the saints side that are keen to impress - so I think it will be a good game.

Time to stick my neck out (just a little):

Saints by 8 and one of Bradford's best performances of the season

or

it could turn out as everybody else seems to think.

[Tommy The C5t]

A very interesting thought there Mr Smog and it's one that has been praying on my mind too.

But despite the extra effort we are bound to see on Friday night, I don't think we'll see Worrincy scoring a brace or Reardon halting Graham in his tracks.

I don't expect a hammering on Friday that's for sure.

Before I call it a night, Mr Parky I'll answer your question in depth tomorrow.

[The Parksider]

Before I call it a night, Mr Parky I'll answer your question in depth tomorrow.

Thank you Mr Ceefivetee.

[Finn]

1996 St Helens 26-20 Bradford, Att: 10,010, Ref: S Cummings

1997 St Helens 20-38 Bradford, Att: 10,277, Ref: S Cummings

1998 St Helens 33-25 Bradford, Att: 6,955, Ref: S Cummings

1998 St Helens 46-24 Bradford, Att: 8,973, Ref: S Cummings

1999 St Helens 58-14 Bradford, Att: 15,042, Ref: R Smith

1999 St Helens 25-16 Bradford, Att: 8,490, Ref: J Connolly

2000 St Helens 10-32 Bradford, Att: 10,128, Ref: S Presley

2000 St Helens 16-11 Bradford, Att: 8,864, Ref: R Smith

2001 St Helens 38-26 Bradford, Att: 10,428, Ref: R Connolly

2002 St Helens 34-26 Bradford, Att: 11,316, Ref: R Connolly

2002 St Helens 26-28 Bradford, Att: 8,904, Ref: R Smith

2003 St Helens 46-22 Bradford, Att: 12,714 Ref: I Smith

2003 St Helens 18-22 Bradford, Att: 9,642, Ref: R Smith

2004 St Helens 35-30 Bradford, Att: 11,609, Ref: R Silverwood

2005 St Helens 34-27 Bradford, Att: 13,488, Ref: R Silverwood

2005 St Helens 18-32 Bradford, Att:10,102, Ref: A Klein

2005 St Helens 18-23 Bradford, Att: 15,741, Ref: K Kirkpatrick

2006 St Helens 38-16 Bradford, Att: 9,786, Ref: A Klein

2006 St Helens 42-18 Bradford, Att: 6,480, Ref: K Kirkpatrick

2007 St Helens 34-22 Bradford, Att: 9,417, Ref: R Silverwood

2008 St Helens 58-20 Bradford, Att: 10,692, Ref R Silverwood

2009 St Helens 30-34 Bradford, Att: 10,156, Ref R Silverwood [/i]

Some wildly fluctuating crowds.

Do the Bradford fans still refuse to travel to Saints after the weakened team episodes?

[Amber Avenger]

Anyone else getting a strong sense of deja vu? We must have this conversation about Bradford every single week!

Incidentally does anyone else know of any big clubs in RL whose crowds didn't go down during a fall from grace except Wigan - especially in the recent past? Genuine question, because I bet Bradford aren't an exception! Johnoco has hit the nail on the head about this topic - and it's something I've mentioned time and time again, but it's like banging your head against a brick wall.

Just to keep it on topic - Saints by 30

[The Parksider]

Anyone else getting a strong sense of deja vu? We must have this conversation about Bradford every single week!

Incidentally does anyone else know of any big clubs in RL whose crowds didn't go down during a fall from grace except Wigan - especially in the recent past? Genuine question, because I bet Bradford aren't an exception! Johnoco has hit the nail on the head about this topic - and it's something I've mentioned time and time again, but it's like banging your head against a brick wall.

Just to keep it on topic - Saints by 30

Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.

Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.

[Tommy The C5t]

Some wildly fluctuating crowds.

Do the Bradford fans still refuse to travel to Saints after the weakened team episodes?

1996 St Helens 26-20 Bradford, Att: 10,010, Ref: S Cummings

1997 St Helens 20-38 Bradford, Att: 10,277, Ref: S Cummings

1998 St Helens 33-25 Bradford, Att: 6,955, Ref: S Cummings

1998 St Helens 46-24 Bradford, Att: 8,973, Ref: S Cummings

1999 St Helens 58-14 Bradford, Att: 15,042, Ref: R Smith

1999 St Helens 25-16 Bradford, Att: 8,490, Ref: J Connolly

2000 St Helens 10-32 Bradford, Att: 10,128, Ref: S Presley

2000 St Helens 16-11 Bradford, Att: 8,864, Ref: R Smith

2001 St Helens 38-26 Bradford, Att: 10,428, Ref: R Connolly

2002 St Helens 34-26 Bradford, Att: 11,316, Ref: R Connolly

2002 St Helens 26-28 Bradford, Att: 8,904, Ref: R Smith

2003 St Helens 46-22 Bradford, Att: 12,714 Ref: I Smith

2003 St Helens 18-22 Bradford, Att: 9,642, Ref: R Smith

2004 St Helens 35-30 Bradford, Att: 11,609, Ref: R Silverwood

2005 St Helens 34-27 Bradford, Att: 13,488, Ref: R Silverwood

2005 St Helens 18-32 Bradford, Att:10,102, Ref: A Klein

2005 St Helens 18-23 Bradford, Att: 15,741, Ref: K Kirkpatrick

2006 St Helens 38-16 Bradford, Att: 9,786, Ref: A Klein

2006 St Helens 42-18 Bradford, Att: 6,480, Ref: K Kirkpatrick

2007 St Helens 34-22 Bradford, Att: 9,417, Ref: R Silverwood

2008 St Helens 58-20 Bradford, Att: 10,692, Ref R Silverwood

2009 St Helens 30-34 Bradford, Att: 10,156, Ref R Silverwood

The ones in bold are either Play-Off or Challenege Cup games.

[Tommy The C5t]

Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.

Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.

I think you better go check that figure again because in the early days of Super League Leeds were getting 6,000/7,000 in at Headingley for the visits of St Helens, Castleford, Warrington etc.

[Amber Avenger]

Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.

Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.

Not really the same (comparative) fall from grace in any of these cases as the Bulls though I would say. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all "woe is me" about it, but the rise to the top in Bradford's case was so meteoric, as was the fall. Even in Cas's case which is about as close a comparison out of those three as you are likely to get - they were never winning trophies etc. They have always been one of the comps middle of the road teams - tearing it up and threatening the playoffs one year, mid table mediocrity the next. As such, I'd think the crowds wouldn't have particularly significantly risen or fallen over the years.

I suppose the main difference is that a lot of the Bulls support went from expecting a lot in the trophy cabinet to getting nothing pretty quickly - which is why I suppose is why the Wigan comparison is brought up. However this again brings the point back round the fact Wigan is RL through and through and Bradford a city completely apathetic. I'm not saying it doesn't need addressing - it's far easier to point out problems than solve them as the Bulls already know - but retaining the level of support Wigan did should be an aspiration, sure, but using it as a model beat by beat for the Bulls will see it fall down instantly because at the heart of it the general public in Bradford don't care as much about RL as Wigan do.

Edited August 11, 2010 by Amber Avenger

[Tommy The C5t]

Not really the same (comparative) fall from grace in any of these cases as the Bulls though I would say. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all "woe is me" about it, but the rise to the top in Bradford's case was so meteoric, as was the fall. Even in Cas's case which is about as close a comparison out of those three as you are likely to get - they were never winning trophies etc. They have always been one of the comps middle of the road teams - tearing it up and threatening the playoffs one year, mid table mediocrity the next. As such, I'd think the crowds wouldn't have particularly significantly risen or fallen over the years.

I suppose the main difference is that a lot of the Bulls support went from expecting a lot in the trophy cabinet to getting nothing pretty quickly - which is why I suppose is why the Wigan comparison is brought up. However this again brings the point back round the fact Wigan is RL through and through and Bradford a city completely apathetic. I'm not saying it doesn't need addressing - it's far easier to point out problems than solve them as the Bulls already know - but retaining the level of support Wigan did should be an aspiration, sure, but using it as a model beat by beat for the Bulls will see it fall down instantly because at the heart of it the general public in Bradford don't care as much about RL as Wigan do.

This should be fun to watch tonight --> http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12198_6304208,00.html

[Errol Stock]

Leeds held a 13,000 average through a number of years of early SL failure.

Hull built from 6,000 into double figures and stayed there before their limited successes, They are staying up there during a not so good period (OK they are fourth now) and a few inept performances.

Castlefords 6,000 core stuck rigidly with them in relegation into the NL's and back.

It's not a go at Bradford, it's trying to work out how to get a crowd to stick wether you are winning or losing.

Very important if SL is to be a success.

I am a Bradfordian (rarely admit this in public) - so what I am about to say may annoy my fellow citizens ...

Bradford folk are fickle, rigid, set in their ways and dont accept change, they are happier moaning about "stuff" than being positive and they certainly do not change habits of a lifetime (armchair critical supporters) - in a sentence - a general stereotypical summary.

However, bearing this in mind - what the Bulls achieved at the time was all the more remarkable - a view I have held since the gaps on the terraces got filled (and emptied again).

I was so annoyed that all the hard work was being frittered away that I wrote & met Mr Hood in 2006 - and since then it got worse! I also wrote to Wigan at the time - who were losing games but attendances were rising.

ATEOTD - Wigan had a plan, they stuck to the plan, they moved to a great new stadium, they found the right chairman and they found the right coach - add to that the people of Wigan being if a different ilk to Bradford - and you have what you have at Wigan.

Bradford had a plan, they stuck to the plan but it wasn't as good, we continue to play in a depression inducing hole,the chairman is the only one who wants the job and we backed the wrong coach - add to that the fickle Bradford folk - and you have what you have at Bradford.

Hope this answers at least one question!

Mick - this thread needs re-titling now!

[Tommy The C5t]

Mick - this thread needs re-titling now!

Agree but I've set the bookmark now to my phone so don't really want to go to all the trouble of setting a new one to a new thread.

Good post there Errol and what you say about Bradfordians being set in their ways is 100% true.

I only have to look at my family to see this, not one of us ever had a car from both my mum/dad side of the family.

[Tommy The C5t]

St Helens will be without Graham and Clough as both are added to the injury list. Eastmond however is still a doubt.

We may just have a chance now?

[Kenilworth Tiger]

Saints by an absoule country mile

Easiest game to predict since Bradfrod travelled to Wrexham

[The Parksider]

I suppose the main difference is that a lot of the Bulls support went from expecting a lot in the trophy cabinet to getting nothing pretty quickly - which is why I suppose is why the Wigan comparison is brought up. However this again brings the point back round the fact Wigan is RL through and through and Bradford a city completely apathetic. I'm not saying it doesn't need addressing - it's far easier to point out problems than solve them as the Bulls already know - but retaining the level of support Wigan did should be an aspiration, sure, but using it as a model beat by beat for the Bulls will see it fall down instantly because at the heart of it the general public in Bradford don't care as much about RL as Wigan do.

Very interesting. Someone from Bradford posted at one time the idea that the game is rather limited in the city (to the south??). Maybe even in places like Bradford that can date their Rugby beginnings back to the 1860's there's areas where the game is not developed and needs dare I say "expanding". Good luck on that.....

[The Parksider]

I am a Bradfordian (rarely admit this in public) - so what I am about to say may annoy my fellow citizens ...

Bradford folk are fickle, rigid, set in their ways and dont accept change, they are happier moaning about "stuff" than being positive and they certainly do not change habits of a lifetime (armchair critical supporters) - in a sentence - a general stereotypical summary.

However, bearing this in mind - what the Bulls achieved at the time was all the more remarkable - a view I have held since the gaps on the terraces got filled (and emptied again).

I was so annoyed that all the hard work was being frittered away that I wrote & met Mr Hood in 2006 - and since then it got worse! I also wrote to Wigan at the time - who were losing games but attendances were rising.

ATEOTD - Wigan had a plan, they stuck to the plan, they moved to a great new stadium, they found the right chairman and they found the right coach - add to that the people of Wigan being if a different ilk to Bradford - and you have what you have at Wigan.

Bradford had a plan, they stuck to the plan but it wasn't as good, we continue to play in a depression inducing hole,the chairman is the only one who wants the job and we backed the wrong coach - add to that the fickle Bradford folk - and you have what you have at Bradford.

Hope this answers at least one question!

Mick - this thread needs re-titling now!

That is also very interesting. I have wonderful memories of many games at Odsal over many years, but it isn't a great stadium today (the first time I walked into it c. 1971, I found it astounding).

Good stadia may help attract people to games, and keep them there like the KC and the HJ and the JJB - and if Bradford had the stadia the crowds may have kept up a bit more.

Let's hope one day they will get that stadia.

[Errol Stock]

Good stadia may help attract people to games, and keep them there like the KC and the HJ and the JJB - and if Bradford had the stadia the crowds may have kept up a bit more.

Let's hope one day they will get that stadia.

Unfortunately, as I found in 2006, this was "the plan". I raised various points with regard to Customer retention and loss of Customers at the time.

The answer was "A New Stadium" in a nutshell - but that isn't a plan - it's a gamble.

[Tommy The C5t]

The all important meeting with the Council is Monday 26th August.

I guess this is when we find out if it's Odsal or Valley Parade.

But I'm not too keen on the idea of us moving to the Shay.

We have to stay in Bradford.

[Amber Avenger]

Very interesting. Someone from Bradford posted at one time the idea that the game is rather limited in the city (to the south??). Maybe even in places like Bradford that can date their Rugby beginnings back to the 1860's there's areas where the game is not developed and needs dare I say "expanding". Good luck on that.....

I'd go along with that. I'd say one half was City and one half was Bulls with little crossover - no real rivalry though as with some cities. I've mostly found that even if you only support one of the two, you have a respect for the other and want them to do well, even if you don't ever go to the games.

There is certainly room for expansion within the city - I went to upper school in south Bradford and yet during games lessons we played...union, much to the annoyance of the many Bulls fans!

[Errol Stock]

I'd go along with that. I'd say one half was City and one half was Bulls with little crossover - no real rivalry though as with some cities. I've mostly found that even if you only support one of the two, you have a respect for the other and want them to do well, even if you don't ever go to the games.

Not sure about this.. Whenever the stadium issue hits the T & A, the vitriol from City fans is intense - add on those from Keighley and it gets worse...

If you mention a ground share - you get the same reaction - some verge on hatred..

Haven't noticed if they are from a few posters or many different ones.

[Amber Avenger]

Not sure about this.. Whenever the stadium issue hits the T & A, the vitriol from City fans is intense - add on those from Keighley and it gets worse...

If you mention a ground share - you get the same reaction - some verge on hatred..

Haven't noticed if they are from a few posters or many different ones.

If you are talking about on the T&A site, the majority of people who post on there do seem to be numpties (both City and Bulls). I think it's a case of those who have a problem with it are most likely to post their bile on there.

All I can go off is my own experience and the City fans I know and have met over the course of my fandom at Northern/Bulls have nothing but well wishes for us. Maybe it's just me.

[hindle xiii]

Kearney, Halley, L'Estrange, Hall, Lynch, Sheriffe, Scruton, Finigan, Kopczak, Olbison, Menzies, Reardon, Godwin, Crookes, Sykes, Whitehead, Worrincy, Langley, Platt.

[Finn]

I don't know the geography very well but the old Steam Pig mag indicated that those people from the West of Bradford (the old Bradford Park Avenue area?) would gravitate towards Burnley rather than Bradford City.

Does this still happen?