Salford Red Devils

[wackojacko]

edited

 

Agreed, I'm just confused by the fact that licensing guts ambition in SL. To reach it, possibly, but for the clubs involved to build to win it?

[scotchy]

And Leigh or Bradford or whomever won't be promoted by chance. It will be the result of a good team, well coached winning the prize on the field which will have been achieved by backroom planning and management.

 

That was the absolute zenith of Leeds attendances and so it is more likely they would fall than rise, but I will admit that if any team can breach the 20,000 barrier it will be Leeds as they are in by far the biggest city represented in SL. I do not see why the 20,000 level cannot be gained by Leeds under the current system.

it wasn't the zenith at the time was it.

jeopardy is just another word for instability

[keighley]

it wasn't the zenith at the time was it.

jeopardy is just another word for instability

 

What are you talking about. If Leeds highpoint in attendances was 18,000 then that was the zenith, Have they ever been higher,

 

Jeopardy. Who mentioned jeopardy ? But, seeing as you introduced it into the thread and equated that with instability. Well that's your take on p and r and jeopardy. I feel that giving opportunity to broaden the scope of teams who have competed at the top level and replacing underperforming teams from that top group is healthy for the game, and, in the long run contributes to the stability of the code even if a particular team is inconvenienced along the way by being relegated

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Do you really think Wigan would be happy to just sit at the bottom of a league if they were unrelegatable? That they're not in the sport in the hope of success?

Absolutely not. But do I think they'd have broken the bank to bring in Fielden? Personally, no I don't. I think they'd have tried to slowly rebuild because they'd have time.

Whether they'd have achieved that or not is another question. But the chain of events that led to Lyndsay leaving began with the cap breaches.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

But that's not what we have seen elsewhere or in our league.

Your argument about Wigan, entirely misses the point. P+R never forced them to make those changes. You want to attribute those changes to 'the lack of comfort zone' or P+R forcing them to make the changes. But that isn't true.

It also hasn't been true of our other clubs who have struggled either. Wigan made those changes not because of the threat of P+R but because of a change in ownership. Under P+R they were still surviving, still closer to the top than the bottom. P+R precipitated none of the changes Wigan needed to make to be where they are now. Ian Lenegan is responsible for those changes and his Wigan were never close to P+R. Even that year was a little of a Whelan panic. They were comfortably safe and for a lot of teams they had a 'good season' simply not as good as the heights a club like Wigan set.

The change of ownership came about because of those changes. Whelan and Lyndsay both left after the salary cap scandal, which wouldn't have happened had Wigan not been in danger of relegation. There are pros and cons to that.

The club who was affected by P+R was Cas, who under P+R were a yo-yo club. That comfort zone allowed them to grow to post their best season in years last year. They likely wouldn't have done that under P+R because they spent that time blooding youngsters, and finishing close to, If not at the bottom.

What about the other years of mediocrity during the licensing era for Cas? They blooded youngsters throughout the P&R era. They made the playoffs during the P&R era. I think their success is far more down to having a decent coach than it is the licensing arrangement. But again, that's opinions either way.

The next club relegated were Salford who were massively damaged by it,

Is this the club that sunk to their lowest depth during licensing by nearly going out of business?

Salford actually made the playoffs during P&R. Is that because of P&R? Can I attribute that to P&R like you did Cas' success last season?

the promoted club was Hull KR who pretty much admitted they were using up to 13 over seas players because their only priority was survival.

Which they achieved. And they wouldn't have gotten in to SL through licensing.

In 2008 it was Cas again. Which is pretty clear evidence that relegation didn't force the club to improve at all. Their performance in 2006 when they were relegated, was better than their first season back up

There was no relegation in 2008 and they had a license. There was nothing to force them.

In 2006, there was the Wigan salary cap scandal and they actually finished above Catalans, not to mention they were pipped at the post by Wakefield. A very unfortunate set of circumstances, but incredibly exciting times.

Look at the clubs that 'safety net' saved Cas in 8, Crusaders were bottom in 2009, playoffs 2010. Les Catalans were bottom 2010, play offs 2011, Widnes in their first season in 2012 finished bottom, 10th in 2013, play offs 2014. 2013 Salford were bottom, 10th in 2014 who would bet against play-offs 2015? Those clubs were making those changes and the safety net allowed them to progress and that's what changed things at the top. That's where the unpredictability came from. Thats where our new challengers came from.

There is a slight safety net though in the middle eight. If you can't beat a Championship club, you dint deserve your SL status.

Salford were promotrd in 2003 and made the playoffs in 2005. Huddersfield were bottom four years in a row, then built after relegation and became a regular playoff side. There are examples both ways.

We will never know what London or Bradford could have done next year after they made changes, we do know that Wakefield aren't spending next year diverting funds to their desperate stadium, we know they aren't going to be spending a season blooding the kids, they will have one priority and one only. Avoid relegation and best case scenario they achieve they achieve that. The season after it is exactly the same

Previous seasons showed that they were both on the decline. They've been forced to make changes.

Like I say, there are arguments both ways, but unless you've got unequivocal proof, don't tell me what I'm saying isn't true. It makes you come across as arrogant. If you dint believe it to be true, that's fine. But don't tell me.

[The Parksider]

Do you really think Wigan would be happy to just sit at the bottom of a league if they were unrelegatable? That they're not in the sport in the hope of success?

 

They are all in it for success of course they are. Of course a club would break the bank to avoid relegation and the damage that would cause.

 

The idea clubs are treading water in SL or the idea these failing clubs should be replaced by thrusting up and coming Championship clubs from Halifax (went totally bust when in SL didn't get a league point and never recovered) Featherstone (small club never been in SL lost their chance when they lost their rich man) Cumbria (crowds in the hundreds) etc. is the "them were the days bring 'em back" brigade dreaming.

 

The clear reason the smaller clubs seem to "lack ambition" is that they cannot afford ambition, once in Superleague they face competition. Bigger stronger clubs with money who will buy your best players off you. Look at Leigh, the Championship's champion to show Superleague failures how it's done.

 

They hadn't even kicked a ball on their quest for SL before Leeds came knocking for Barlow and Brierley who Leigh desperately clung onto but meekly accepted once the contract was up these lads could choose to go.

 

Look at Castleford bringing through young players and mixing it with the big boys. It happens every year with them, Thompson, Westerman, Arundel and others. Reached Wembley and Davey said "I'll have Huby" Pearson said "Sneyd's mine" and Wire said here's some money we'll have Clarke.

 

Even the imports like Moon who was going to go home, but in fact was being picked off by Leeds. Look at HKR's ability to find Aussie half backs and other big clubs ability to take them off them.

 

That there is a money divide between the have's and have not's stifles ambition, as the top eight use the lower SL clubs to find and develop players for them. Leigh up Wakefield down doesn't refresh anything. There's the daft idea that once in SL the fans will flock back spreading interest back into new areas. 

 

Nowhere was more pertinent to this than Widnes who were promoted and worked their way into the eight. They were on 3,600 on promotion now that's 5,600 that's well below their break even and the gaffer ain't wasting his £Millions. It's different at Salford, the gaffer would be happy to spend £5,000,000 on players if you let him.

 

For Superleage, "ambition" is irrelevant, "building a club" isn't possible, "Refreshing the league" is replacing one small club with no chance of success with another.

 

It all runs on money. If you ain't got it then like Salford pre-Koukash they faced sharing a ground somewhere to keep the name going in CC1, post Koukash top players are happy to go sign there.

 

The new structure won't change a thing to the good for the lower clubs it will make it worse, the top eight get to play each other three times so crowds and money will go up for them. The top players outside the eight will jump even higher if they are offered a chance to be in it.

 

The Middle Eight competition is not Superleague, it's the new second tier, it's the new Championship. Those who are bouncing about promotion, about "refreshing Superleague" firstly face the very strong possibility that there will be no promotion, secondly even if they realised their dream and Halifax, Fev Sheffield and Leigh smashed their way to promotion in some sort of dream sequence where do you think they will be once the first 22 SL games are played out 2016.

 

Still in the new Championship.

 

Try to face the reality of Money league, forget this building rubbish. Nowhere was "building for SL" hailed louder than at Fev where they spent every penny they could find standing still. Then along comes a very rich man and it's Superleague here we come on his £Millions laying bare the lie of building. He walks out and it's Dual Registration in disguise here we come as the club nurses Leeds reserves. 

 

The biggest clubs develop most of the best players, and those they don't develop they buy up anyway. There's only a few of them who win all the cups. Beyond that you can find a very rich man to pay £10's of Mllions in to be a big club too even though on matchdays the stands are mostly empty and they don't win cups. There's only a few of them.

 

It's professional sport, the league mirrors the cash available to the clubs.

[GaryO]

The change of ownership came about because of those changes. Whelan and Lyndsay both left after the salary cap scandal, which wouldn't have happened had Wigan not been in danger of relegation. There are pros and cons to that.

What about the other years of mediocrity during the licensing era for Cas? They blooded youngsters throughout the P&R era. They made the playoffs during the P&R era. I think their success is far more down to having a decent coach than it is the licensing arrangement. But again, that's opinions either way.

Is this the club that sunk to their lowest depth during licensing by nearly going out of business?

Salford actually made the playoffs during P&R. Is that because of P&R? Can I attribute that to P&R like you did Cas' success last season?

Which they achieved. And they wouldn't have gotten in to SL through licensing.

There was no relegation in 2008 and they had a license. There was nothing to force them.

In 2006, there was the Wigan salary cap scandal and they actually finished above Catalans, not to mention they were pipped at the post by Wakefield. A very unfortunate set of circumstances, but incredibly exciting times.

There is a slight safety net though in the middle eight. If you can't beat a Championship club, you dint deserve your SL status.

Salford were promotrd in 2003 and made the playoffs in 2005. Huddersfield were bottom four years in a row, then built after relegation and became a regular playoff side. There are examples both ways.

Previous seasons showed that they were both on the decline. They've been forced to make changes.

Like I say, there are arguments both ways, but unless you've got unequivocal proof, don't tell me what I'm saying isn't true. It makes you come across as arrogant. If you dint believe it to be true, that's fine. But don't tell me.

Games set and match to the boy from Hull.

[The Parksider]

Games set and match to the boy from Hull.

 

You'd like it to be.

 

All this stuff about P & R and Licensing - both systems being totally irrelevant to the big clubs, and what it takes to be a big club.

 

Sure Huddersfield became a regular play off club but pretending it was by "building the club" is nonsense.

 

Huddersfield's academy has been condemned in recent years, and their crowds are only 1,600 above what they were on TEN years ago. Those stats getting in the way again?

 

They are where they are because a man decided to sink £10's of Millions in the club for free. If Davey money stopped going in tommorrow what would be left? What was left when Wilkinson walked away at Salford??. Nowt.

 

Hudgell pops half a £Million a year in as does Fulton who had to up it to a reported £800K last time. 

 

How much is Beaumont prepared to spend of his own money year on year is the question for you. That will tell you how far he'll take your club.....

[GaryO]

They are all in it for success of course they are. Of course a club would break the bank to avoid relegation and the damage that would cause.

 

The idea clubs are treading water in SL or the idea these failing clubs should be replaced by thrusting up and coming Championship clubs from Halifax (went totally bust when in SL didn't get a league point and never recovered) Featherstone (small club never been in SL lost their chance when they lost their rich man) Cumbria (crowds in the hundreds) etc. is the "them were the days bring 'em back" brigade dreaming.

 

The clear reason the smaller clubs seem to "lack ambition" is that they cannot afford ambition, once in Superleague they face competition. Bigger stronger clubs with money who will buy your best players off you. Look at Leigh, the Championship's champion to show Superleague failures how it's done.

 

They hadn't even kicked a ball on their quest for SL before Leeds came knocking for Barlow and Brierley who Leigh desperately clung onto but meekly accepted once the contract was up these lads could choose to go.

 

Look at Castleford bringing through young players and mixing it with the big boys. It happens every year with them, Thompson, Westerman, Arundel and others. Reached Wembley and Davey said "I'll have Huby" Pearson said "Sneyd's mine" and Wire said here's some money we'll have Clarke.

 

Even the imports like Moon who was going to go home, but in fact was being picked off by Leeds. Look at HKR's ability to find Aussie half backs and other big clubs ability to take them off them.

 

That there is a money divide between the have's and have not's stifles ambition, as the top eight use the lower SL clubs to find and develop players for them. Leigh up Wakefield down doesn't refresh anything. There's the daft idea that once in SL the fans will flock back spreading interest back into new areas. 

 

Nowhere was more pertinent to this than Widnes who were promoted and worked their way into the eight. They were on 3,600 on promotion now that's 5,600 that's well below their break even and the gaffer ain't wasting his £Millions. It's different at Salford, the gaffer would be happy to spend £5,000,000 on players if you let him.

 

For Superleage, "ambition" is irrelevant, "building a club" isn't possible, "Refreshing the league" is replacing one small club with no chance of success with another.

 

It all runs on money. If you ain't got it then like Salford pre-Koukash they faced sharing a ground somewhere to keep the name going in CC1, post Koukash top players are happy to go sign there.

 

The new structure won't change a thing it will make it worse, the top eight get to play each other three times so crowds and money will go up for them. The top players outside the eight will jump even higher if they are offered a chance to be in it.

 

The Middle Eight competition is not Superleague, it's the new second tier, it's the new Championship. Those who are bouncing about promotion, about "refreshing Superleague" firstly face the very strong possibility that there will be no promotion, secondly even if they realised their dream and Halifax, Fev Sheffield and Leigh smashed their way to promotion in some sort of dream sequence where do you think they will be once the first 22 SL games are played out 2016.

 

Still in the new Championship.

 

Try to face the reality of Money league, forget this building rubbish. Nowhere was "building for SL" hailed louder than at Fev where they spent every penny they could find standing still. Then along comes a very rich man and it's Superleague here we come on his £Millions laying bare the lie of building. He walks out and it's Dual Registration in disguise here we come as the club nurses Leeds reserves. 

 

The biggest clubs develop most of the best players, and those they don't develop they buy up anyway. There's only a few of them who win all the cups. Beyond that you can find a very rich man to pay £10's of Mllions in to be a big club too even though on matchdays the stands are mostly empty and they don't win cups. There's only a few of them.

 

It's professional sport, the league mirrors the cash available to the clubs.

Can't argue at all with any of that Parky, unfortunately that scenario can be applied to any business, any walk of life, those who have and those who have not.

If we don't have a SC then the good Doc (if he is the richest) after a couple of seasons and good recruitment becomes top dog?

On the other hand, I would you say if Davy left Huddersfield they in a short period would be a middle eight and maybe a little lower.

And do you think if their respective teams lost Moran, Lenhigan, Caddick, Pearson, Hudgell, McManus and no one with the same clout wanted to step into the breach they would retain their status?

Given we have this situation, what do you expect the rest to do, wither and die, or have ambition and press on?

Although, a number of the posters on here think it is a complete waste of time and effort, the town of Leigh has been reawakened in terms of RL, there is a buzz in the place and more people for a long time are getting involved, that surely has to good, hasn't it?

Slightly back on OP, I wish the good Doc had taken a left on the East Lancs road when he was first going to Salford as I imagine the good folk of Oldham would have preferred him to carry on to their little domain. Good luck and all the best to Salford that he went there.

[wackojacko]

Absolutely not. But do I think they'd have broken the bank to bring in Fielden? Personally, no I don't. I think they'd have tried to slowly rebuild because they'd have time.

 

 

I'd have called that a good thing but each to his own.

[scotchy]

1.The change of ownership came about because of those changes. Whelan and Lyndsay both left after the salary cap scandal, which wouldn't have happened had Wigan not been in danger of relegation. There are pros and cons to that.

2.What about the other years of mediocrity during the licensing era for Cas? They blooded youngsters throughout the P&R era. They made the playoffs during the P&R era. I think their success is far more down to having a decent coach than it is the licensing arrangement. But again, that's opinions either way.

3.Is this the club that sunk to their lowest depth during licensing by nearly going out of business?

Salford actually made the playoffs during P&R. Is that because of P&R? Can I attribute that to P&R like you did Cas' success last season?

4.Which they achieved. And they wouldn't have gotten in to SL through licensing.

5.There was no relegation in 2008 and they had a license. There was nothing to force them.

In 2006, there was the Wigan salary cap scandal and they actually finished above Catalans, not to mention they were pipped at the post by Wakefield. A very unfortunate set of circumstances, but incredibly exciting times.

6.There is a slight safety net though in the middle eight. If you can't beat a Championship club, you dint deserve your SL status.

Salford were promotrd in 2003 and made the playoffs in 2005. Huddersfield were bottom four years in a row, then built after relegation and became a regular playoff side. There are examples both ways.

Previous seasons showed that they were both on the decline. They've been forced to make changes.

7.Like I say, there are arguments both ways, but unless you've got unequivocal proof, don't tell me what I'm saying isn't true. It makes you come across as arrogant. If you dint believe it to be true, that's fine. But don't tell me.

1.P+R didn't precipitate the changes Ian Lenegan made. Ian Lenegan took over a club in no danger of relegation and they continued to be in no danger of relegation.

2. Cas would have been relegated based on their finishing position in 2008. You may wish to invent a new reality in which results were different because of the threat of relegation but that doesn't effect the fact that licensing allowed a club to finish bottom and improve from their. Not having a safety net does not allow that. That is unequivocal.

3. You can if you wish. But Salford were another yo - yo club under P+R. If you think that was healthy for them go ahead and make that argument. I'm not sure anyone will buy it though.

4 . Brilliant, hopefully more clubs will follow their example and we can increase the amount of overseas players we have. We can go back to Wakefield playing the 15 overseas.

5.and they lost a hell of a lot of money because of it and have spoken about how relegation damaged them as a club.

6. Salford were relegated again afterwards. Without a safety net we would have lost Les Catalans. And for all that excitement Cas and Wakefield posted terrible attendances.

7 firstly don't be so precious. Secondly it is far easy to disprove something than prove it. There is some pretty unequivocal proof what you are saying isn't true. That doesn't mean there is unequivocal proof that my preference is correct.

[Krytensmate]

They are all in it for success of course they are. Of course a club would break the bank to avoid relegation and the damage that would cause.

 

The idea clubs are treading water in SL or the idea these failing clubs should be replaced by thrusting up and coming Championship clubs from Halifax (went totally bust when in SL didn't get a league point and never recovered) Featherstone (small club never been in SL lost their chance when they lost their rich man) Cumbria (crowds in the hundreds) etc. is the "them were the days bring 'em back" brigade dreaming.

 

The clear reason the smaller clubs seem to "lack ambition" is that they cannot afford ambition, once in Superleague they face competition. Bigger stronger clubs with money who will buy your best players off you. Look at Leigh, the Championship's champion to show Superleague failures how it's done.

 

They hadn't even kicked a ball on their quest for SL before Leeds came knocking for Barlow and Brierley who Leigh desperately clung onto but meekly accepted once the contract was up these lads could choose to go.

 

Look at Castleford bringing through young players and mixing it with the big boys. It happens every year with them, Thompson, Westerman, Arundel and others. Reached Wembley and Davey said "I'll have Huby" Pearson said "Sneyd's mine" and Wire said here's some money we'll have Clarke.

 

Even the imports like Moon who was going to go home, but in fact was being picked off by Leeds. Look at HKR's ability to find Aussie half backs and other big clubs ability to take them off them.

 

That there is a money divide between the have's and have not's stifles ambition, as the top eight use the lower SL clubs to find and develop players for them. Leigh up Wakefield down doesn't refresh anything. There's the daft idea that once in SL the fans will flock back spreading interest back into new areas. 

 

Nowhere was more pertinent to this than Widnes who were promoted and worked their way into the eight. They were on 3,600 on promotion now that's 5,600 that's well below their break even and the gaffer ain't wasting his £Millions. It's different at Salford, the gaffer would be happy to spend £5,000,000 on players if you let him.

 

For Superleage, "ambition" is irrelevant, "building a club" isn't possible, "Refreshing the league" is replacing one small club with no chance of success with another.

 

It all runs on money. If you ain't got it then like Salford pre-Koukash they faced sharing a ground somewhere to keep the name going in CC1, post Koukash top players are happy to go sign there.

 

The new structure won't change a thing to the good for the lower clubs it will make it worse, the top eight get to play each other three times so crowds and money will go up for them. The top players outside the eight will jump even higher if they are offered a chance to be in it.

 

The Middle Eight competition is not Superleague, it's the new second tier, it's the new Championship. Those who are bouncing about promotion, about "refreshing Superleague" firstly face the very strong possibility that there will be no promotion, secondly even if they realised their dream and Halifax, Fev Sheffield and Leigh smashed their way to promotion in some sort of dream sequence where do you think they will be once the first 22 SL games are played out 2016.

 

Still in the new Championship.

 

Try to face the reality of Money league, forget this building rubbish. Nowhere was "building for SL" hailed louder than at Fev where they spent every penny they could find standing still. Then along comes a very rich man and it's Superleague here we come on his £Millions laying bare the lie of building. He walks out and it's Dual Registration in disguise here we come as the club nurses Leeds reserves. 

 

The biggest clubs develop most of the best players, and those they don't develop they buy up anyway. There's only a few of them who win all the cups. Beyond that you can find a very rich man to pay £10's of Mllions in to be a big club too even though on matchdays the stands are mostly empty and they don't win cups. There's only a few of them.

 

It's professional sport, the league mirrors the cash available to the clubs.

Fantastic post , you have just described Life and Sport , What an ' oracle ' you are , amazing

[The Parksider]

Can't argue at all with any of that Parky, 

 

1. If we don't have a SC then the good Doc (if he is the richest) after a couple of seasons and good recruitment becomes top dog?

 

It's not going to happen as the big clubs won't let him dismantle them, let's say it did and Koukash offered silly money to players across the world as well as here then I suppose we return to a Wigan like dominance of old. That may be accelerated if chairmen at other clubs decide not to bother any more. However most chairman of the big clubs have been clear they won't compete if such as Dr. K. were given license to wreak havoc. The marquee player is the sop to him, even that has not taken off

2. On the other hand, I would you say if Davy left Huddersfield they in a short period would be a middle eight and maybe a little lower.

 

I'm assured that Davey has left money in place to continue support of the club. If he hadn't and his money was all taken out then they would be a club dependant on 6,500 crowds. Players would be up for signing elsewhere. Whose first? Brough? How many more need to go to see the club unravel and fans stay at home?

 

Remember that clubs on better crowds like Cas and HKR survive on regular half £Million cheques from semi-rich directors like the frozen food magnate and the Ambulance chaser. How could Fartown even match them with no Davey money?

3. Do you think if their respective teams lost Moran, Lenhigan, Caddick, Pearson, Hudgell, McManus and no one with the same clout wanted to step into the breach they would retain their status?

 

Each is different. Moran created a bigger club at Warrington that could compete for trophies. He got the ground and the bigger crowd reaction awakening a sleeping giant (Ironically Fartown didn't turn out to be Giants). Lenegan and McManus have done a lot to take already big clubs into the modern SL era and keep them there. The big clubs Chairmen aim to hit the £6,000,000 a year reportedly needed to compete in SL without having to sign big cheques, I'd guess if any walked new rich men would come in knowing the clubs are big enough for them not to have to be that big a cash cow.

 

I'd guess it would be easy for Wigan to find a new wealthy chairman, maybe very very hard for Castleford as these clubs are oceans apart.

4. Given we have this situation, what do you expect the rest to do, wither and die, or have ambition and press on?

Although, a number of the posters on here think it is a complete waste of time and effort, the town of Leigh has been reawakened in terms of RL

 

They are all withering and dying from the mighty Bulls who didn't find the rich man until collapse(so they may come back), Wakefield who lost their rich man and the two who have followed had no money to give, Cas whose cash cow is sadly and with respect may not be around for much longer as their stadium crumbles, Halifax a shadow of their former selves, who constantly boast having rich people on board but never show any evidence of that, Whitehaven who don't have a full team etc etc.

 

I expect all clubs from the top eight down to carry on competing. The RFL/KPMG have given them an exciting new competition to play in that they can concentrate on whilst the big eight chase the trophies. After all the RFL were clear this competition, this "Middle eight"  was to raise the excitement levels and bring the fans back for what were indeed "withering" clubs.

 

Nowhere has it worked better than at Leigh so you go for it, you try and knock the Wakey's, Castleford's Widnes's and HKR's off their perches and dump them on their derriers. You and I and all staunch RL fans will find this exciting, but please don't believe that after that, if Leigh make SL it's onward and upward, unless Mr. Beaumont is going to pump at least a £Million or more a year in for a good number of years to come. You may one day get a hubcap like Fartown if he does, if there is no more money then enjoy anyway.

 

As Leigh's number one fan after you and craiq said - I just want promotion, even a year in Superleague will be a laugh even if we go straight down.

[The Parksider]

Fantastic post , you have just described Life and Sport , What an ' oracle ' you are , amazing

 

Hmm I suggest that's tongue in cheek sarcasm.

 

I'm always buoyed by replies that focus on me, the you you you stuff. Ban Parky his posts are too long. It's then I know I have a good argument.

 

Oracles make prophesies, all I'm doing is making Observations based on the reality of how the game works. 

 

You may not like it, (you don't argue with it) you may want to shoot the messenger, you may not like someone waking you up when your having a nice dream.

 

But it's a debate site and if people want to put up their views about how Leigh are set to take SL by storm for years to come, then they invite views that may not agree.

 

But who is to say Mr. Beaumont is not as rich a benefactor as Dr. K, vowing to be around as long as Dr. K?

 

You have plenty of knowledge of the club, tell me what Beaumont and the board's proposals are for for Leigh's five year plan and what funding they intend to attach to it from where?

 

If you read the posts carefully rather than the name on the top then you just may find that I am not writing Leigh off.

[Krytensmate]

Hmm I suggest that's tongue in cheek sarcasm.

 

I'm always buoyed by replies that focus on me, the you you you stuff. Ban Parky his posts are too long. It's then I know I have a good argument.

 

Oracles make prophesies, all I'm doing is making Observations based on the reality of how the game works. 

 

You may not like it, (you don't argue with it) you may want to shoot the messenger, you may not like someone waking you up when your having a nice dream.

 

But it's a debate site and if people want to put up their views about how Leigh are set to take SL by storm for years to come, then they invite views that may not agree.

 

But who is to say Mr. Beaumont is not as rich a benefactor as Dr. K, vowing to be around as long as Dr. K?

 

You have plenty of knowledge of the club, tell me what Beaumont and the board's proposals are for for Leigh's five year plan and what funding they intend to attach to it from where?

 

If you read the posts carefully rather than the name on the top then you just may find that I am not writing Leigh off.

I dont disagree with your assessment , but all you decribe is what everybody already knows , just as we already know that your ' nirvana ' , just like you suggest ours isnt perfect , but it is all we have as a sport

 

Just as you suggest we ' wish ' and dream that our club [ whichever that might be ] will conquer SL , you dream of clubs in big citys with huge sponsors and full stadiums from around the country and abroad coming into SL and fullfilling its potential , well it might happen , in the meantime , you'll just have to put up with us , and if your dream happens then ' we ' wont have an argument , but at the moment its you that doesnt

[The Parksider]

I dont disagree with your assessment , but all you describe is what everybody already knows ,

 

just as we already know that your ' nirvana ' , just like you suggest ours isnt perfect , but it is all we have as a sport

 

Hurrah!!

 

I expected you to come back and have a pop at me like your kind Midnight message the other day that you were happy not to have been on the site that day because you didn't have to read all the "rubbish" I post. I am pleased you agree now, but you really have not been reading this board carefully enough if you think everybody knows the realities of Rugby League in the modern era.

 

I haven't run up an appalling 18,000 posts agreeing my observations with other people. 

 

I have also taken on board what you say and whilst I explored the idea of getting 10 big clubs into a closed shop under strict collective financial control, something that people at the top of SL and their friends at the top of RU have suggested, for some time, yes we have to face the reality there really is no appetite for Calder to come together, SL clubs to fund London, Toulouse to be waved in or Hull and HKR despite falling attendances, falling league positions and a derby game at a bigger NCP failing to match the Leeds crowd to accept one club would do far better in SL.

 

I have also looked at what a semi closed shop has done to the Championship, crowds outside SL falling since professionalism but sliced in half by licensing. Clubs prostituting themselves under DR arrangements, clubs folding with fans having to rescue them. 

 

And so whilst you are right I wish for/dream of a change of mindset we will never get to achieve and end result we may never see, I still temper my conclusions with the reality of a need for P & R. And in my world of P & R there'd be one up and one down whereupon Leigh would probably march into Superleague, and skint Wakefield can probably be let down lightly into the Championship, later Bradford will get back in time and London will become SL again only if they can raise their game.

 

None of this may happen under current arrangements, was it too much to ask??

[Krytensmate]

Hurrah!!

 

I expected you to come back and have a pop at me like your kind Midnight message the other day that you were happy not to have been on the site that day because you didn't have to read all the "rubbish" I post. I am pleased you agree now, but you really have not been reading this board carefully enough if you think everybody knows the realities of Rugby League in the modern era.

 

I haven't run up an appalling 18,000 posts agreeing my observations with other people. 

 

I have also taken on board what you say and whilst I explored the idea of getting 10 big clubs into a closed shop under strict collective financial control, something that people at the top of SL and their friends at the top of RU have suggested, for some time, yes we have to face the reality there really is no appetite for Calder to come together, SL clubs to fund London, Toulouse to be waved in or Hull and HKR despite falling attendances, falling league positions and a derby game at a bigger NCP failing to match the Leeds crowd to accept one club would do far better in SL.

 

I have also looked at what a semi closed shop has done to the Championship, crowds outside SL falling since professionalism but sliced in half by licensing. Clubs prostituting themselves under DR arrangements, clubs folding with fans having to rescue them. 

 

And so whilst you are right I wish for/dream of a change of mindset we will never get to achieve and end result we may never see, I still temper my conclusions with the reality of a need for P & R. And in my world of P & R there'd be one up and one down whereupon Leigh would probably march into Superleague, and skint Wakefield can probably be let down lightly into the Championship.

I would be happy to see 1 up , 1 down , providing we go back to the scenario we had in 2001 , when a Leigh team won the NFP/NL1/Championship by 9 clear points only to lose in the play offs to both Oldham and Widnes , whereupon Widnes had a 3 month ' jump ' upon its future SL rivals with regards recruitment , and finished 7 th in SL in 2002 , it was only when the seasons were alined that we started to see the promoted clubs struggle

 

But I do feel this structure . malighned as it has been in football , might just be perfect for RL , it will allow most ambitious clubs to have something to play for , be that promotion , avoiding relegation , and also ridding us of the ridiculous 8 team play off system in SL , only time will tell , because nobody actually knows , no matter how nuch they think they do , or that history tells us , this is something new

[The Parksider]

I do feel this structure . malighned as it has been in football , might just be perfect for RL , it will allow most ambitious clubs to have something to play for , be that promotion , avoiding relegation , and also ridding us of the ridiculous 8 team play off system in SL , only time will tell , because nobody actually knows , no matter how nuch they think they do , or that history tells us , this is something new

 

Indeed you cannot be faulted for that post.

 

We can have grave doubts but we will have to see.

 

However as for club A being able to spend more than club B being good for competition time has told us again and again on this one

[Krytensmate]

Indeed you cannot be faulted for that post.

 

We can have grave doubts but we will have to see.

 

However as for club A being able to spend more than club B being good for competition time has told us again and again on this one

And your opinion of Widnes's promotion in 2001?

[keighley]

They are all in it for success of course they are. Of course a club would break the bank to avoid relegation and the damage that would cause.

 

The idea clubs are treading water in SL or the idea these failing clubs should be replaced by thrusting up and coming Championship clubs from Halifax (went totally bust when in SL didn't get a league point and never recovered) Featherstone (small club never been in SL lost their chance when they lost their rich man) Cumbria (crowds in the hundreds) etc. is the "them were the days bring 'em back" brigade dreaming.

 

The clear reason the smaller clubs seem to "lack ambition" is that they cannot afford ambition, once in Superleague they face competition. Bigger stronger clubs with money who will buy your best players off you. Look at Leigh, the Championship's champion to show Superleague failures how it's done.

 

They hadn't even kicked a ball on their quest for SL before Leeds came knocking for Barlow and Brierley who Leigh desperately clung onto but meekly accepted once the contract was up these lads could choose to go.

 

Look at Castleford bringing through young players and mixing it with the big boys. It happens every year with them, Thompson, Westerman, Arundel and others. Reached Wembley and Davey said "I'll have Huby" Pearson said "Sneyd's mine" and Wire said here's some money we'll have Clarke.

 

Even the imports like Moon who was going to go home, but in fact was being picked off by Leeds. Look at HKR's ability to find Aussie half backs and other big clubs ability to take them off them.

 

That there is a money divide between the have's and have not's stifles ambition, as the top eight use the lower SL clubs to find and develop players for them. Leigh up Wakefield down doesn't refresh anything. There's the daft idea that once in SL the fans will flock back spreading interest back into new areas. 

 

Nowhere was more pertinent to this than Widnes who were promoted and worked their way into the eight. They were on 3,600 on promotion now that's 5,600 that's well below their break even and the gaffer ain't wasting his £Millions. It's different at Salford, the gaffer would be happy to spend £5,000,000 on players if you let him.

 

For Superleage, "ambition" is irrelevant, "building a club" isn't possible, "Refreshing the league" is replacing one small club with no chance of success with another.

 

It all runs on money. If you ain't got it then like Salford pre-Koukash they faced sharing a ground somewhere to keep the name going in CC1, post Koukash top players are happy to go sign there.

 

The new structure won't change a thing to the good for the lower clubs it will make it worse, the top eight get to play each other three times so crowds and money will go up for them. The top players outside the eight will jump even higher if they are offered a chance to be in it.

 

The Middle Eight competition is not Superleague, it's the new second tier, it's the new Championship. Those who are bouncing about promotion, about "refreshing Superleague" firstly face the very strong possibility that there will be no promotion, secondly even if they realised their dream and Halifax, Fev Sheffield and Leigh smashed their way to promotion in some sort of dream sequence where do you think they will be once the first 22 SL games are played out 2016.

 

Still in the new Championship.

 

Try to face the reality of Money league, forget this building rubbish. Nowhere was "building for SL" hailed louder than at Fev where they spent every penny they could find standing still. Then along comes a very rich man and it's Superleague here we come on his £Millions laying bare the lie of building. He walks out and it's Dual Registration in disguise here we come as the club nurses Leeds reserves. 

 

The biggest clubs develop most of the best players, and those they don't develop they buy up anyway. There's only a few of them who win all the cups. Beyond that you can find a very rich man to pay £10's of Mllions in to be a big club too even though on matchdays the stands are mostly empty and they don't win cups. There's only a few of them.

 

It's professional sport, the league mirrors the cash available to the clubs.

 

So all that diatribe adds up to the fact that you want an eight team SL, since there are no other candidates to be a "big"team. You claim to have ambition for the sport but, in reality, your nirvana is a small footprint ( where Leeds are ring fenced and protected for evermore and where the game never spreads it's success any wider than that. You are a modern day SL Luddite. 

[keighley]

You'd like it to be.

 

All this stuff about P & R and Licensing - both systems being totally irrelevant to the big clubs, and what it takes to be a big club.

 

Sure Huddersfield became a regular play off club but pretending it was by "building the club" is nonsense.

 

Huddersfield's academy has been condemned in recent years, and their crowds are only 1,600 above what they were on TEN years ago. Those stats getting in the way again?

 

They are where they are because a man decided to sink £10's of Millions in the club for free. If Davey money stopped going in tommorrow what would be left? What was left when Wilkinson walked away at Salford??. Nowt.

 

Hudgell pops half a £Million a year in as does Fulton who had to up it to a reported £800K last time. 

 

How much is Beaumont prepared to spend of his own money year on year is the question for you. That will tell you how far he'll take your club.....

 

 

Relegation wasn't irrelevant to "big" club Bradford and "Big city" club London mow was it. Promotion wasn't irrelevant to upwardly mobile Hull KR or top eight regulars Huddersfield, was it ?

[keighley]

1. If we don't have a SC then the good Doc (if he is the richest) after a couple of seasons and good recruitment becomes top dog?

 

It's not going to happen as the big clubs won't let him dismantle them, let's say it did and Koukash offered silly money to players across the world as well as here then I suppose we return to a Wigan like dominance of old. That may be accelerated if chairmen at other clubs decide not to bother any more. However most chairman of the big clubs have been clear they won't compete if such as Dr. K. were given license to wreak havoc. The marquee player is the sop to him, even that has not taken off

2. On the other hand, I would you say if Davy left Huddersfield they in a short period would be a middle eight and maybe a little lower.

 

I'm assured that Davey has left money in place to continue support of the club. If he hadn't and his money was all taken out then they would be a club dependant on 6,500 crowds. Players would be up for signing elsewhere. Whose first? Brough? How many more need to go to see the club unravel and fans stay at home?

 

Remember that clubs on better crowds like Cas and HKR survive on regular half £Million cheques from semi-rich directors like the frozen food magnate and the Ambulance chaser. How could Fartown even match them with no Davey money?

3. Do you think if their respective teams lost Moran, Lenhigan, Caddick, Pearson, Hudgell, McManus and no one with the same clout wanted to step into the breach they would retain their status?

 

Each is different. Moran created a bigger club at Warrington that could compete for trophies. He got the ground and the bigger crowd reaction awakening a sleeping giant (Ironically Fartown didn't turn out to be Giants). Lenegan and McManus have done a lot to take already big clubs into the modern SL era and keep them there. The big clubs Chairmen aim to hit the £6,000,000 a year reportedly needed to compete in SL without having to sign big cheques, I'd guess if any walked new rich men would come in knowing the clubs are big enough for them not to have to be that big a cash cow.

 

I'd guess it would be easy for Wigan to find a new wealthy chairman, maybe very very hard for Castleford as these clubs are oceans apart.

4. Given we have this situation, what do you expect the rest to do, wither and die, or have ambition and press on?

Although, a number of the posters on here think it is a complete waste of time and effort, the town of Leigh has been reawakened in terms of RL

 

They are all withering and dying from the mighty Bulls who didn't find the rich man until collapse(so they may come back), Wakefield who lost their rich man and the two who have followed had no money to give, Cas whose cash cow is sadly and with respect may not be around for much longer as their stadium crumbles, Halifax a shadow of their former selves, who constantly boast having rich people on board but never show any evidence of that, Whitehaven who don't have a full team etc etc.

 

I expect all clubs from the top eight down to carry on competing. The RFL/KPMG have given them an exciting new competition to play in that they can concentrate on whilst the big eight chase the trophies. After all the RFL were clear this competition, this "Middle eight"  was to raise the excitement levels and bring the fans back for what were indeed "withering" clubs.

 

Nowhere has it worked better than at Leigh so you go for it, you try and knock the Wakey's, Castleford's Widnes's and HKR's off their perches and dump them on their derriers. You and I and all staunch RL fans will find this exciting, but please don't believe that after that, if Leigh make SL it's onward and upward, unless Mr. Beaumont is going to pump at least a £Million or more a year in for a good number of years to come. You may one day get a hubcap like Fartown if he does, if there is no more money then enjoy anyway.

 

As Leigh's number one fan after you and craiq said - I just want promotion, even a year in Superleague will be a laugh even if we go straight down.

 

You smug person you. I hope for your sake Leeds play better  than they did at then end of last season or their aging team will be coming face to face with the reality that father time is undefeated and might be competing for their lives with the rest of the great unwashed you so despise.

[Krytensmate]

You smug person you. I hope for your sake Leeds play better  than they did at then end of last season or their aging team will be coming face to face with the reality that father time is undefeated and might be competing for their lives with the rest of the great unwashed you so despise.

Now that would make for an interesting ' middle 8 '

[Wellsy4HullFC]

1.P+R didn't precipitate the changes Ian Lenegan made. Ian Lenegan took over a club in no danger of relegation and they continued to be in no danger of relegation.

I never said it did. I said that the effects of the previous management made due to P&R paved the way for Leneghan to purchase the club.

2. Cas would have been relegated based on their finishing position in 2008. You may wish to invent a new reality in which results were different because of the threat of relegation but that doesn't effect the fact that licensing allowed a club to finish bottom and improve from their. Not having a safety net does not allow that. That is unequivocal.

In the new system, can a club finish bottom and improve from there? The answer you are looking for is yes it does.

3. You can if you wish. But Salford were another yo - yo club under P+R. If you think that was healthy for them go ahead and make that argument. I'm not sure anyone will buy it though.

Neither was struggling away at the bottom during licensing. P&R wasn't too blame for Salford being poor. Poor management was. The fact they were poor in both systems shows that. And the fact that they had a modest but if success in P&R shows it is possible.

4 . Brilliant, hopefully more clubs will follow their example and we can increase the amount of overseas players we have. We can go back to Wakefield playing the 15 overseas.

It wasn't ideal, but they have begun to bring through their own now and promote British players. They were more competitive than other clubs in the league, which is better for the player pool as a whole.

5.and they lost a hell of a lot of money because of it and have spoken about how relegation damaged them as a club.

How much money did trundling along at the bottom of SL for four years lose them? And other clubs? And the game as a whole? Let's just keep them in and hope that they get good year after year to the detriment of the rest of the league. Not the strategy I'd go for.

6. Salford were relegated again afterwards. Without a safety net we would have lost Les Catalans. And for all that excitement Cas and Wakefield posted terrible attendances.

Have they improved under licensing?

7 firstly don't be so precious. Secondly it is far easy to disprove something than prove it. There is some pretty unequivocal proof what you are saying isn't true. That doesn't mean there is unequivocal proof that my preference is correct.

I'm not bothered if you want to continue that way. However, it's more to stop the constant backlash you get from asserting your opinion as a fact on people. It's arrogance.

It may be far easier to disprove something than prove it. And there may be some unequivocal proof for some things. But you have done or shown neither, yet assert that your right. What's the point in getting into a debate with you if you're not interested in taking other people's opinions on board?

If you want to continue to assert that you're right and I'm wrong, despite having no actual proof (just a few theories which you class as unequivocal), then I'll leave the "debate". If you want to actually discuss, I'll stick about.

[scotchy]

1.I never said it did. I said that the effects of the previous management made due to P&R paved the way for Leneghan to purchase the club.

2.In the new system, can a club finish bottom and improve from there? The answer you are looking for is yes it does.

3.Neither was struggling away at the bottom during licensing. P&R wasn't too blame for Salford being poor. Poor management was. The fact they were poor in both systems shows that. And the fact that they had a modest but if success in P&R shows it is possible.

4.It wasn't ideal, but they have begun to bring through their own now and promote British players. They were more competitive than other clubs in the league, which is better for the player pool as a whole.

5 How much money did trundling along at the bottom of SL for four years lose them? And other clubs? And the game as a whole? Let's just keep them in and hope that they get good year after year to the detriment of the rest of the league. Not the strategy I'd go for.

6.Have they improved under licensing?

7. I'm not bothered if you want to continue that way. However, it's more to stop the constant backlash you get from asserting your opinion as a fact on people. It's arrogance.

It may be far easier to disprove something than prove it. And there may be some unequivocal proof for some things. But you have done or shown neither, yet assert that your right. What's the point in getting into a debate with you if you're not interested in taking other people's opinions on board?

If you want to continue to assert that you're right and I'm wrong, despite having no actual proof (just a few theories which you class as unequivocal), then I'll leave the "debate". If you want to actually discuss, I'll stick about.

 

1. Which means that the positive changes at Wigan are entirely irrelevant to P+R

 

2. Not if it is relegated it cant no.

 

3. or that they couldn't make the changes they needed to make under P+R, and instead of the improvement over the last couple of years, we would have seen relegation

 

4. Great, so it 8 years time the next team to come up can start investing in their young british players, unless of course they are replaced by another team from below and the whole cycle starts again of course.

 

5. Them, Less. The game as whole, nothing.

 

6. Yes.

 

7. I didn't say I proved myself unequivocally right, simply that there is wide ranging evidence from ourselves and different sports which proved the claims you made in favour of P+R unequivocally wrong.  

 

Your best argument in favour of P+R isn't that P+R is proven to do x, y, or z, but that there are some things we can't unequivocally disprove and you like it.