Have we just made it simple for the top 4/5 clubs to dominate?

[southstand loiner]

 

Controversial probably, but here's how I see it.

 

Big Clubs*

Wigan

Leeds

Saints

Hull

Bradford

 

Rich Clubs

Warrington

Salford

 

Clubs too small to break big (unless they become rich)

Cas

Fax

Hull KR

Leigh

Widnes

Huddersfield

 

Unknown

London

Catalan

 

As someone said, it's also quite right to say that clubs should get out and create their own revenues and build, but not every club is sat in a c1m population metropolis.

 

*What determines 'big'?

• Trophies
• Fanbase
• Ground capacity
• History
• Brand recognition

 

if you describe hull as a big club  then given your list of what determines a big club how come hull kr are classed as to small

[The Parksider]

 

Controversial probably, but here's how I see it.

 

Big Clubs*

Bradford

 

Clubs too small to break big (unless they become rich)

Huddersfield

 

*What determines 'big'?

 

 

Rich Ken Davey determines it shurely?

[The Parksider]

those top clubs are there because they work for it not just on the field but off it . 

 

They were priviliged to be top clubs when professional status backed by SKY money was handed out.

 

They have merely had to maintain that position that gave them great advantages over such as Hull and Widnes who maybe "worked for it. 

 

Oh but hang on Leeds got caddick, Wigan got Whelan and saints got McManus. SL isn't about "work" it's about money.

[Konkrete]

if you describe hull as a big club  then given your list of what determines a big club how come hull kr are classed as to small

The criteria as set out in the list.  Check out the differences between the two based on what's listed.  In some categories they're similar and in others not.  FC have won more championships and cups than KR, they've got a modern ground with double the capacity, they've been in SL 10yrs prior to KR, they've got a bigger fan base, they've played in a GF.  I'd say that's quite a difference to begin with.

 

I guess I could add player supply as a factor as well.

[Dave T]

The 'big' club point has always made me laugh. Group some teams together and include your own seems to be the way to do it.

[Konkrete]

The 'big' club point has always made me laugh. Group some teams together and include your own seems to be the way to do it.

I've laid out my rationale to be debated/argued/disagreed with Dave.  That's my view and it's an opinion - not necessarily correct.

 

Have you got some views on it or have you got the ar'se because I left out Warrington?

[Dave T]

I've laid out my rationale to be debated/argued/disagreed with Dave. That's my view and it's an opinion - not necessarily correct.

Have you got some views on it or have you got the ar'se because I left out Warrington?

no mate, and I was being miscievious, but the whole 'big club' thing is something that I find a nonsense. I always found it so as a Man City fan and we were in lower divisions as ultimately the big club point is irrellevant.

Big is vague enough for us all to have individual criteria for it.

[Krytensmate]

Okay, thanks for that. Well "ME" I would reduced the number of clubs involved in this end of season excitement. When it all comes down it we are talking about whether Leigh, Wakefield, Bulls or Salford will survive/ascend. Whether it is one-up, one-down or top 2 from each in a play-off - you can't slice a third of each competition apart each year and expect it to keep in touch with the top clubs.

 

If you are going to have the middle 8s and want to keep it competitive then you have to bin the marquee player (unless it is universal), perhaps introduce a draft system and even the distribution of money. That is never going to happen though. The top 4/5 have pretty much got what they want here.

That still isn't answering the original question , where do you want the split ?

We either have 40 clubs all in 1 league all getting the same money or we have ' splits ' within the 40 clubs , so where do you suggest the splits should be ?

[Krytensmate]

Okay, thanks for that. Well "ME" I would reduced the number of clubs involved in this end of season excitement. When it all comes down it we are talking about whether Leigh, Wakefield, Bulls or Salford will survive/ascend. Whether it is one-up, one-down or top 2 from each in a play-off - you can't slice a third of each competition apart each year and expect it to keep in touch with the top clubs.

 

If you are going to have the middle 8s and want to keep it competitive then you have to bin the marquee player (unless it is universal), perhaps introduce a draft system and even the distribution of money. That is never going to happen though. The top 4/5 have pretty much got what they want here.

That still isn't answering the original question , where do you want the split ?

We either have 40 clubs all in 1 league all getting the same money and with the same salary cap,quota's or we have ' splits ' within the 40 clubs , so where do you suggest the splits should be ?

[Krytensmate]

This is not in dispute and I actually agree that Leigh deserve their place in SL. I mentioned that on top on the 3x8s we have also given the top 8 SL clubs a bye in the Challenge Cup, World Club Series and a marquee ruling only they can utilise.

I didn't realise the marquee ruling only applied to the top 8 ?

They've earned the Challenge Cup bye

Are we having a top 8 World Club Series ? , I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere

[southstand loiner]

They were priviliged to be top clubs when professional status backed by SKY money was handed out.

 

They have merely had to maintain that position that gave them great advantages over such as Hull and Widnes who maybe "worked for it. 

 

Oh but hang on Leeds got caddick, Wigan got Whelan and saints got McManus. SL isn't about "work" it's about money.

may I point out that when super league was set up leeds were deep in debt within 7 days of going bankrupt  . its then that Hetherington and caddick stepped in and caddick guaranteed the overdraft  and the loans .  caddick has not pumped millions into the club he just guaranteed the debts . since then leeds have paid off the debts by good business methods and are now in profit and caddick does not put money into the club .

 

of course none of that could have happened if some short sited people at Castleford had not turned down caddicks bid to take over them  before Hetherington had a chat to him about the possibilities at leeds.

 

do hull and widnes not have backers then in pearson and whatever the widnes guy is called

[southstand loiner]

I didn't realise the marquee ruling only applied to the top 8 ?

They've earned the Challenge Cup bye

Are we having a top 8 World Club Series ? , I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere

the marquee rule does not come in until next season and will be for all 122 super league clubs

[Krytensmate]

Controversial probably, but here's how I see it

 

*What determines 'big'?

• Trophies
• Fanbase
• Ground capacity
• History
• Brand recognition

Does crappy stadium count as well lol

[Krytensmate]

The criteria as set out in the list.  Check out the differences between the two based on what's listed.  In some categories they're similar and in others not.  FC have won more championships and cups than KR, they've got a modern ground with double the capacity, they've been in SL 10yrs prior to KR, they've got a bigger fan base, they've played in a GF.  I'd say that's quite a difference to begin with.

 

I guess I could add player supply as a factor as well.

How many years back are we going to work this out ?

[Krytensmate]

the marquee rule does not come in until next season and will be for all 122 super league clubs

So you don't want any splits either ?

Hell of a big league

[Scubby]

I didn't realise the marquee ruling only applied to the top 8 ?

They've earned the Challenge Cup bye

Are we having a top 8 World Club Series ? , I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere

 

The marquee ruling is based on turnover so Leigh won't be getting anyone in soon. Read the title of the thread for part 3.

[Krytensmate]

The marquee ruling is based on turnover so Leigh won't be getting anyone in soon. Read the title of the thread for part 3.

I doubt Leigh would as they're not in SL

So they've announced 4 or 5 World Club Series games ?

Again , where do you want RL split ?

[Scubby]

That still isn't answering the original question , where do you want the split ?

We either have 40 clubs all in 1 league all getting the same money and with the same salary cap,quota's or we have ' splits ' within the 40 clubs , so where do you suggest the splits should be ?

 

My preference would be Huddersfield's original proposal of 2x10 clubs (e.g. a SL1 and SL2 of mainly full-time clubs) with one up and one down. We have no need for anymore than 24-26 regular rounds - we want players for internationals who can actually walk. The financial distribution also needs to be closer together (e.g. £1.8m and £1m) - although this is where the cat fighting will start. 

 

Below this can be a League 1 and League 2 of semi-pro teams with 2-up 2-down. Fans of lower division clubs are excited because they get to play SL clubs - it is basically musical chairs with Sky telling them when to stop the music. Clubs like Leigh, Widnes, Bradford and Wakefield better get used to the middle 8s because this is how it is going to be for the next few years.

 

Right, when does the music start? Meanwhile Warrington, Leeds and Wigan are finalising their squads for next year and mulling over marquee signings if they want to.

[Krytensmate]

My preference would be Huddersfield's original proposal of 2x10 clubs (e.g. a SL1 and SL2 of mainly full-time clubs) with one up and one down. We have no need for anymore than 24-26 regular rounds - we want players for internationals who can actually walk. The financial distribution also needs to be closer together (e.g. £1.8m and £1m) - although this is where the cat fighting will start. 

 

Below this can be a League 1 and League 2 of semi-pro teams with 2-up 2-down. Fans of lower division clubs are excited because they get to play SL clubs - it is basically musical chairs with Sky telling them when to stop the music. Clubs like Leigh, Widnes, Bradford and Wakefield better get used to the middle 8s because this is how it is going to be for the next few years.

 

Right, when does the music start? Meanwhile Warrington, Leeds and Wigan are finalising their squads for next year and mulling over marquee signings if they want to.

Thank you , and guess what , that is the format I would also prefer

[Krytensmate]

My preference would be Huddersfield's original proposal of 2x10 clubs (e.g. a SL1 and SL2 of mainly full-time clubs) with one up and one down. We have no need for anymore than 24-26 regular rounds - we want players for internationals who can actually walk. The financial distribution also needs to be closer together (e.g. £1.8m and £1m) - although this is where the cat fighting will start. 

 

Below this can be a League 1 and League 2 of semi-pro teams with 2-up 2-down. Fans of lower division clubs are excited because they get to play SL clubs - it is basically musical chairs with Sky telling them when to stop the music. Clubs like Leigh, Widnes, Bradford and Wakefield better get used to the middle 8s because this is how it is going to be for the next few years.

 

Right, when does the music start? Meanwhile Warrington, Leeds and Wigan are finalising their squads for next year and mulling over marquee signings if they want to.

I fully expect Leigh to be contesting the middle 8 s for the foreseeable future , can't wait

[raceman]

No. This is not to get confused with potentially having the odd-year of success.

Would that be the same Huddersfield Giants who have come 1st 3rd and 4th over the last 3 years? Or do you class that success as an odd year of success?

[Scubby]

Would that be the same Huddersfield Giants who have come 1st 3rd and 4th over the last 3 years? Or do you class that success as an odd year of success?

 

Where is the success? The LL Shield is the odd-year and they have won nothing and not even been within a sniff of a GF? This was with stronger squads and bigger crowds than they have now. They should have had something in that 2010-2013 era for sure. Paul Anderson has a massive job to keep them in the mix over the next 2-3 years. That is not having a go at Huddersfield just facts. 

[Keith T]

At least the lower teams in SL get the same amount of Central Funding as the top teams whilst in the Championship it depends on where you finish in the league table as to how much funding you receive.   If one system is good enough for one league then surely it should apply in the other?

[Konkrete]

no mate, and I was being miscievious, but the whole 'big club' thing is something that I find a nonsense. I always found it so as a Man City fan and we were in lower divisions as ultimately the big club point is irrellevant.

Big is vague enough for us all to have individual criteria for it.

It's not irrellevant though for RL, and as per the OP. RL in this country needs media presence. That comes from big clubs, big crowds, victories over the Aussies/nz, weighty things. No-one outside the family is interested if Leigh beat Widnes in front of 6000 fans even if it's the best game of all time.

Ultimately, the size of your stadium is the size of your ambition.

[Krytensmate]

It's not irrellevant though for RL, and as per the OP. RL in this country needs media presence. That comes from big clubs, big crowds, victories over the Aussies/nz, weighty things. No-one outside the family is interested if Leigh beat Widnes in front of 6000 fans even if it's the best game of all time.

Ultimately, the size of your stadium is the size of your ambition.

Well Bradfords ambition is huge then , but just 5hitty