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Tommygilf

Reserves 2020

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It doesn't make it easy being on a Thursday evening or Saturday/Sunday afternoon better to play them Wednesday then if dual reg a player potentially could play in league 1/Championship for some time on the Sunday

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12 hours ago, HarrogateKnights said:

It doesn't make it easy being on a Thursday evening or Saturday/Sunday afternoon better to play them Wednesday then if dual reg a player potentially could play in league 1/Championship for some time on the Sunday

DR players I think can only play once a week.

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On 10/12/2019 at 01:38, SL17 said:

DR players I think can only play once a week.

 

12 minutes ago, HarrogateKnights said:

Ah right fair one suppose it doesn't matter in that case then

Unless the rules are changed for 2020 DR players are not restricted to playing one game per weekly round.

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On 09/12/2019 at 13:09, scotchy1 said:

 

It's incredible that a game where the lower leagues cant put out full matchday squad is now setting up a reserves tier. 

What's an Alex Sutcliffe going to learn playing in a sub NCL level competition? Going from the championship to the reserves is a huge step down and for some reason we are pretending it will develop them better.

Devil's Advocate here, but I guess part of the thinking is that if the lower leagues' clubs are so shambolically organised that they can't field full squads, then get the best youngsters all under the pro clubs umbrella asap?

I mean the last place the RFL should want their promising young players is with some 'League 1' club who cannot even field a full side.

What an Alex Sutcliffe (or whoever) might gain is a proper training/coaching environment, alongside good quality professional players, with proper analysis, proper S&C, proper recovery, proper medical etc etc..... in short, all the normal pillars of a performance environment.  These are clearly not going to be available at clubs who send out teams with a 2 man bench. . . 


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1 hour ago, Celt said:

Devil's Advocate here, but I guess part of the thinking is that if the lower leagues' clubs are so shambolically organised that they can't field full squads, then get the best youngsters all under the pro clubs umbrella asap?

I mean the last place the RFL should want their promising young players is with some 'League 1' club who cannot even field a full side.

What an Alex Sutcliffe (or whoever) might gain is a proper training/coaching environment, alongside good quality professional players, with proper analysis, proper S&C, proper recovery, proper medical etc etc..... in short, all the normal pillars of a performance environment.  These are clearly not going to be available at clubs who send out teams with a 2 man bench. . . 

Hopefully all SL clubs can fulfill a reserve season.. What are the penalties if they can’t?

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6 hours ago, Celt said:

Devil's Advocate here, but I guess part of the thinking is that if the lower leagues' clubs are so shambolically organised that they can't field full squads, then get the best youngsters all under the pro clubs umbrella asap?

I mean the last place the RFL should want their promising young players is with some 'League 1' club who cannot even field a full side.

What an Alex Sutcliffe (or whoever) might gain is a proper training/coaching environment, alongside good quality professional players, with proper analysis, proper S&C, proper recovery, proper medical etc etc..... in short, all the normal pillars of a performance environment.  These are clearly not going to be available at clubs who send out teams with a 2 man bench. . . 

To play devils advocate on you, Super League players can get all of that professionalism at their contracted clubs whilst training and playing a couple of times a week for a Championship side. 

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The player that I think about in these conversations is Harry Smith. An outstanding Academy player who put in the most dominant display I have seen from a junior half back in the last series against the Australian Schoolboys. 

He is  now reaching an age where he cannot play Academy rugby and he has already been on DR at Swinton and a game at London Skolars.

The question is would a player like Smith develop better as a player on DR with a Championship/League 1 side or with Wigan in their reserves. 

The problem I have with DR is the assumption that all a player needs to improve is game time.  I would argue that what they really need is high quality coaching, professional surroundings and an understanding of what you need to do to be a top quality professional Rugby player.

My view is if Wigan (and others) get the reserve system right Smith would be exposed to better coaches and surrounded by better players than at a DR club... the playing standard is of course part of the equation but only a part.

I am optimistic about what the reserve League could offer our game.

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Just now, Dunbar said:

The player that I think about in these conversations is Harry Smith. An outstanding Academy player who put in the most dominant display I have seen from a junior half back in the last series against the Australian Schoolboys. 

He is  now reaching an age where he cannot play Academy rugby and he has already been on DR at Swinton and a game at London Skolars.

The question is would a player like Smith develop better as a player on DR with a Championship/League 1 side or with Wigan in their reserves. 

The problem I have with DR is the assumption that all a player needs to improve is game time.  I would argue that what they really need is high quality coaching, professional surroundings and an understanding of what you need to do to be a top quality professional Rugby player.

My view is if Wigan (and others) get the reserve system right Smith would be exposed to better coaches and surrounded by better players than at a DR club... the playing standard is of course part of the equation but only a part.

I am optimistic about what the reserve League could offer our game.

Don’t DR players train with their parent clubs during the week anyway and then attend the training of the club they’re being sent to at the weekend? 

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7 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Don’t DR players train with their parent clubs during the week anyway and then attend the training of the club they’re being sent to at the weekend? 

They may well do but I see that as being a pretty poor outcome. Being coached all week to play a certain way and execute plays with colleagues who are being coached to think in the same way... and then at the weekend play a game with a completely different group of players.

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16 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

They may well do but I see that as being a pretty poor outcome. Being coached all week to play a certain way and execute plays with colleagues who are being coached to think in the same way... and then at the weekend play a game with a completely different group of players.

Can personally see both sides of it. 

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27 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The player that I think about in these conversations is Harry Smith. An outstanding Academy player who put in the most dominant display I have seen from a junior half back in the last series against the Australian Schoolboys. 

He is  now reaching an age where he cannot play Academy rugby and he has already been on DR at Swinton and a game at London Skolars.

The question is would a player like Smith develop better as a player on DR with a Championship/League 1 side or with Wigan in their reserves. 

The problem I have with DR is the assumption that all a player needs to improve is game time.  I would argue that what they really need is high quality coaching, professional surroundings and an understanding of what you need to do to be a top quality professional Rugby player.

My view is if Wigan (and others) get the reserve system right Smith would be exposed to better coaches and surrounded by better players than at a DR club... the playing standard is of course part of the equation but only a part.

I am optimistic about what the reserve League could offer our game.

How can he be exposed to better players in a reserves than the championship? That would mean us either finding hundreds of extra players at a better level than the championship or taking hundreds of players from the championship.

Which clubs are going to spend the necessary money on a fringe 20-23 year olds who may or may not make it to make that happen? Especially under the SC. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Can personally see both sides of it. 

As can I. Which is why I will judge based on outcomes rather than assumptions as some on this thread have done.

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The best solution is obviously going to be somewhere between a balance of reserves and loans. For both of them to work however they need to be fully resourced and financed (they have to be full time imo) and I see neither as particularly offering that at the moment. 

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2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The best solution is obviously going to be somewhere between a balance of reserves and loans. For both of them to work however they need to be fully resourced and financed (they have to be full time imo) and I see neither as particularly offering that at the moment. 

I think you’re right. From a Saints perspective, Josh Simm playing reserve rugby probably isn’t that beneficial to him, having spent much of the year on DR at Leigh (and playing well, I believe), whereas for Lewis Dodd, the reserves are likely going to be the next step in his development. 

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47 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The best solution is obviously going to be somewhere between a balance of reserves and loans. For both of them to work however they need to be fully resourced and financed (they have to be full time imo) and I see neither as particularly offering that at the moment. 

I'm not sure the answer is both. For me its neither. 

The game isnt structured to  make best use of relatively meagre resources and both loans and reserves create massive drawbacks, waste and inefficiencies. 

DR wasnt really the answer either, for some reason we introduced loadsnof restrictions to make it nearly unworkable. 

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4 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Don’t DR players train with their parent clubs during the week anyway and then attend the training of the club they’re being sent to at the weekend? 

Danny Richardson made a comment about this last year with his DR with Leigh. He would train all week at Saints but then never found out until the weekend where he was playing and if it was Leigh he then had little time to adjust their team. This resulted in some pretty indifferent displays and he said it didn't help his confidence at all.


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Just now, Saint Toppy said:

Danny Richardson made a comment about this last year with his DR with Leigh. He would train all week at Saints but then never found out until the weekend where he was playing and if it was Leigh he then had little time to adjust their team. This resulted in some pretty indifferent displays and he said it didn't help his confidence at all.

He’s a bit daft if he wasn’t sure where he was playing each week. 

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17 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

He’s a bit daft if he wasn’t sure where he was playing each week. 

Why ?

He would often find himself in the 19 man squad for Saints so would spend the week training with them as if he were playing, but then on Friday would then find out if he was actually in the 17, and if not he would be sent to Leigh to pay for them at the weekend. 


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On 06/12/2019 at 12:43, Tommygilf said:

...Reserves fixtures have been released with several clubs looking to use them as pre-match build up for SL games. Looks like a straight h/a fixture list...

 

Not sure it’s as simple as that (unfortunately.) Reading through the RFL website...

https://www.rugby-league.com/championship__league_1/article/56084/reserves-and-academy-fixtures-released-for-

It appears the 14 reserve teams will only play 18 games, not 26 required for straight h/a.

AC8AB277-AA1D-461F-AF90-128FAE3E241F.jpeg

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4 hours ago, dead man inc said:

Not sure it’s as simple as that (unfortunately.) Reading through the RFL website...

https://www.rugby-league.com/championship__league_1/article/56084/reserves-and-academy-fixtures-released-for-

It appears the 14 reserve teams will only play 18 games, not 26 required for straight h/a.

AC8AB277-AA1D-461F-AF90-128FAE3E241F.jpeg

Micky mouse as you like, you need a full double round robin to crown a champion without playoffs!  

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23 hours ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

To play devils advocate on you, Super League players can get all of that professionalism at their contracted clubs whilst training and playing a couple of times a week for a Championship side. 

yes - you are right - a model can also be constructed that way.

The SPFL football used a similar situation in recent years - where players could go out on loan to lower league sides.  Premiership clubs sometimes loaned guys to part time teams, in order that they could train all week at their 'home' club and head out to train the odd night and play for the lower league team.  They were also permitted to return (be recalled) to play in Development league (efectively U20) games for their pro club.

The system has been tweaked since last season whereby the SPFL has re-introduced an open-age reserve league again.  4 clubs elect not to compete and have organised an ad hoc league among themselves with 2 English clubs who opted out of the english football reserve leagues (3 of them do play in the reserve cup however - a group based comp designed to broaden the fixture list) 


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On 12/12/2019 at 12:51, Oliver Clothesoff said:

He’s a bit daft if he wasn’t sure where he was playing each week. 

What are you suggesting he should have done, check his horoscope to see if Saints or Leigh were going to play him at the weekend?

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12 minutes ago, Oliver Clothesoff said:

Nah, just applied common sense. 

In what way? If he wasn't being told until the weekend whether he was playing for Saints or Leigh that weekend, what common sense should he have applied to know which team he was going to be playing for before he was told?

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