RFL to scrap promotion and relegation

[GUBRATS]

Just now, DeadShotKeen said:

Oh OK. Thanks for clearing that up.

It either will happen or the sport will die over here and we'll just be left with NRL. That's the reality of it, don't you think?

No 

[DeadShotKeen]

Just now, SL17 said:

Could a Wakey or a Salford club support a feeder club?

No.

Why ever not? You would keep them as semi-pro sides at a decent level, sitting below an elite side (much as happens in NRL and with Catalan).

Do you not think a fair few existing fans of those sides would want to watch that? In particular to see the high quality local kids before they step up to the elite side? If not, why not? For some it would be an adjustment, for others a step too far. The goal would be to gain many more fans at the top end and retain as many as possible for both the elite side and the (new) traditional sides.

Using me as an example, I'd love to watch my old team Hull KR as a semi-pro side and also a merged Hull side at a higher level. In terms of the current derby, you would retain that as a semi-pro fixture which would hopefully resemble something like East Hull youths vs West Hull youths. That would be completely mint. After a natural period of adjustment you would absolutely pack them in. What rugby league fan in Hull wouldn't want to see that?

[DeadShotKeen]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

No 

Again, thanks for clearing up.

[Smudger06]

4 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Let’s be realistic. You get rid of P&R and the sport is gone in this day and age. Could a Wakey or a Salford club support a feeder club?

No.

Back to old question? The only hope is the lower tiers go it alone. But big brother doesn’t want that.

Yes they would have to pay market rates for our contracted players for one thing. We could end up with better quality players than the so called elite, left to our own devices. Can't be having that. 

[GUBRATS]

Just now, DeadShotKeen said:

Again, thanks for clearing up.

You're welcome

[DeadShotKeen]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

You're welcome

Can you share with us your vision for the future of rugby league in the Northern hemisphere?

"More of the same"?

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Why ever not? You would keep them as semi-pro sides at a decent level, sitting below an elite side (much as happens in NRL and with Catalan).

Do you not think a fair few existing fans of those sides would want to watch that? In particular to see the high quality local kids before they step up to the elite side? If not, why not? For some it would be an adjustment, for others a step too far. The goal would be to gain many more fans at the top end and retain as many as possible for both the elite side and the (new) traditional sides.

Using me as an example, I'd love to watch my old team Hull KR as a semi-pro side and also a merged Hull side at a higher level. In terms of the current derby, you would retain that as a semi-pro fixture which would hopefully resemble something like East Hull youths vs West Hull youths. That would be completely mint. After a natural period of adjustment you would absolutely pack them in. What rugby league fan in Hull wouldn't want to see that?

So which mergers of sports clubs have worked in the UK ?

[Smudger06]

The Fev Clubs string of exciting an entertaining victories in away from home playoffs at Leigh, York & Toulouse was achieved in no small part by a large and vocal following. 

[DeadShotKeen]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

So which mergers of sports clubs have worked in the UK ?

Why does my suggestion need to show precedent?

It is what it is.

My guess is you have an ulterior motive in not wanting to see it attempted. Is that fair? Do you want to see the sport grow out of its heartlands? If so, how?

Again, please share with us your vision. Mine is there. You've seen it. I want to see what you've got by way of comparison.

 

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Why does my suggestion need to show precedent?

It is what it is.

My guess is you have an ulterior motive in not wanting to see it attempted. Is that fair? Do you want to see the sport grow out of its heartlands? If so, how?

Again, please share with us your vision. Mine is there. You've seen it. I want to see what you've got by way of comparison.

 

I want all aspects and all clubs to grow , irrespective of where they currently sit in the various community and professional leagues , and indeed irrespective of where they are based 

[Smudger06]

8 minutes ago, SL17 said:

We kicked your butt.. We still have the same amount travelling in Championship.

You?

A lot of the fans of SL Clubs can't be bothered going on away days. They've seen it all b4, especially with the loop fixtures, they've become indifferent. They'll only go to the perceived big games away from home or the new and fresh away games. Now, now, imagine how much worse that situation would be in a closed shop. 

[Mister Ting]

11 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

I want all aspects and all clubs to grow , irrespective of where they currently sit in the various community and professional leagues , and indeed irrespective of where they are based 

Don't all clubs have the ability to grow?

[Mister Ting]

I just wish the powers that be would stick to something that would leave the clubs and fans knowing what the long term prospects are.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

Don't all clubs have the ability to grow?

Yes , my point exactly and simply , I want and believe all clubs can grow themselves and the sport 

[Mister Ting]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Yes , my point exactly and simply , I want and believe all clubs can grow themselves and the sport 

But for some clubs, isn't there a ceiling?

[Robthegasman]

My feeling is that there will be substantially less professional/semi professional clubs come 2022.

I think there will be 2 divisions of say 8 or 10 clubs,a Super League Elite division and a Championship.I think it will be on a franchise basis for both divisions with certain criteria required.And my feeling is that these franchises will be reviewed/renewed after say 4-5 years.

 And I think the clubs that do not succeed in getting a franchise will become some sort of community clubs....or they will fade away.

I could of course be wrong.Time will tell.

 

[GUBRATS]

10 minutes ago, Mister Ting said:

But for some clubs, isn't there a ceiling?

Probably , but if you accept that , I'll pretty much guarantee you'll never reach it , let alone bust through it 

There is a poem by Edgar Guest , it starts with the words " somebody said " , I've used that poem as inspiration , from the day my mother gave me a piece of text ripped from an old Daily Mirror with it on it , this was as I was setting up my business 

Read it , it might just inspire you 

[Smudger06]

5 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , my point exactly and simply , I want and believe all clubs can grow themselves and the sport 

Unfortunately I think certain clubs in the Championship and the majority in League 1, both expansion and historic, are too far gone......beyond help. The money to assist is not suficient from either central funding or their owner / investors. They can't afford half decent players, they can't afford (rent or own) decent venues, they can't even afford to promote themselves to potential consumers. It's like flogging a dead horse. 

I think it was Tommy earlier in this thread mentioned 24 Clubs in 4 brackets, I think he got the brackets way off but the Clubs not mentioned I don't think even their own fans would notice they were missing off the fixture list. 

[Mister Ting]

2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Probably , but if you accept that , I'll pretty much guarantee you'll never reach it , let alone bust through it 

There is a poem by Edgar Guest , it starts with the words " somebody said " , I've used that poem as inspiration , from the day my mother gave me a piece of text ripped from an old Daily Mirror with it on it , this was as I was setting up my business 

Read it , it might just inspire you 

I'll check that out, thanks.

[Big Picture]

54 minutes ago, DeadShotKeen said:

The sport in this country will never get anywhere until it gets rid of P&R, undergoes a consolidation at elite level in its heartlands (eg mergers in Hull, West Yorks, Cheshire and Cumbria) and undertakes genuine expansion into new high potential areas.

None of this is without risk, naturally, but the alternative is simply watching the sport slowly die along the M62 (as currently). Such actions as the merger of the 2 Hull academies in order to temporarily bolster the rickety finances of the 2 pro sides amounts to nothing less than deliberate vandalism of the sport's player supply system (and hence future) via a rose-tinted nostalgia for a time that isn't ever returning and quite frankly no-one should clamour for. 

Me? I want to see elite sides from Leeds, Hull, Cumbria and Cheshire (to name a few) playing elite sides from London, Birmingham, Toronto, New York etc. in an NRL-style level-playing field franchised system. This then allows for this new league to directly hook-up with NRL to play inter-conference regular season games and create a genuine "winner takes all" Grand Final between the 2 comp winners. Tell me this can't happen and I tell you you're both a defeatist and a parochial elitist.

You're on the right track there, but what you want to see simply can't happen in the way you suggest.  The traditional clubs all lack the size, money, know-how and just about everything else to be part of a league like that.  Even if you could get local rivals to form joint ventures, they're in the wrong locations for the sort of league you want to see.

As former St Helens chief executive Sean McGuire pointed out in his interviews with Tony Collins, with the possible exception of Leeds all the traditional clubs are in small economically-disadvantaged towns where there simply isn't the sort of money available in places like London, Toronto and New York.  If you want a league like you describe able to bring the sort of money into RL which the sport needs to keep pace with other sports and their steadily-rising TV rights and sponsorship deals, then for it to succeed (as it absolutely would have to do) it would have to locate its franchises in the sort of cities which can attract that sort of money and only in cities which fit that criterion.

[Smudger06]

4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

You're on the right track there, but what you want to see simply can't happen in the way you suggest.  The traditional clubs all lack the size, money, know-how and just about everything else to be part of a league like that.  Even if you could get local rivals to form joint ventures, they're in the wrong locations for the sort of league you want to see.

As former St Helens chief executive Sean McGuire pointed out in his interviews with Tony Collins, with the possible exception of Leeds all the traditional clubs are in small economically-disadvantaged towns where there simply isn't the sort of money available in places like London, Toronto and New York.  If you want a league like you describe able to bring the sort of money into RL which the sport needs to keep pace with other sports and their steadily-rising TV rights and sponsorship deals, then for it to succeed (as it absolutely would have to do) it would have to locate its franchises in the sort of cities which can attract that sort of money and only in cities which fit that criterion.

That must have been some interview BP. 

[Oldbear]

4 hours ago, Angelic Cynic said:

  On the field they win games.

  Off the field they have the requisite number of seats.

Which sort of proves my comment that the required standards are just a fudge. I have never been to Trailfinders, but on TV it does not give the impression of a facility hosting world class sport, we have high school arenas in Canada that have as many seats as Trailfinders, but only an idiot could suggest they should host major pro sport. Not bagging London at all, they have a dedicated owner, produce lots of juniors and can maintain a full time squad, but that stadium belies belief.

[Oldbear]

2 hours ago, DeadShotKeen said:

Me? I want to see elite sides from Leeds, Hull, Cumbria and Cheshire (to name a few) playing elite sides from London, Birmingham, Toronto, New York etc. in an NRL-style level-playing field franchised system. This then allows for this new league to directly hook-up with NRL to play inter-conference regular season games and create a genuine "winner takes all" Grand Final between the 2 comp winners. Tell me this can't happen and I tell you you're both a defeatist and a parochial elitist.

Sounds attractive, but I hate to ask the obvious question, how does this get funded?

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

That must have been some interview BP. 

It's three interviews, not just one, and they cover the whole period from the 1980s onward.  They're part of Professor Collins' Rugby Reloaded podcast series, #48 'When Ellery Was King' Sean McGuire on the 1980s and League Expansion, #96 25 Years of Super League with Sean McGuire and #116 Rugby League After Covid-19 with Sean McGuire.  Hearing McGuire's explanation of how the sport's chronic lack of money is tied to where its pro teams are located I finally understood why John Kear suggested in an interview a few years ago that in 20 years or so there might not be any pro RL in the UK.

44 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Sounds attractive, but I hate to ask the obvious question, how does this get funded?

That sort of thing would take outside money of course and a lot of it to create a fully professional structure and fund the sort of promotional campaign needed for it to fly, i.e. the kind of money which is beyond the game's reach as things stand today.

[Big Picture]

6 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Is there an elite side in Birmingham or London?

No.

So to you let’s get realistic.

 

No there isn't today and there won't be unless and until someone creates them and that won't happen without a suitable league for such teams to play in.