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UK Women RL Payments


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I know nothing of what women RL players get paid, if anything, in the UK. I did look around the 'net and found this out about minimum payments in Australia:

Domestic: Rugby League $8,500 Aussie rules $16,600, Football $16,350, Rugby 15s Unpaid. 

International: Rugby League $2,000 per match, Aussie Rules (N/A), Rugby Union 7s $44,500 Rugby Union 15s $1,000 per match. 

 

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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The rumoured signing on the "WSL Round Up" thread was officially announced on Tuesday. Leeds have an interview on their social media with head coach Lois Forsell, talking about the acquisition and multi-tasking.

As far as I`m aware, there are no direct payments by UK RL clubs to their players. There might be expenses of some description? It was in the ether that this was a possible factor in the departures from Cas to York.

It would be interesting to know how the Georgia Roche move from Cas to Leeds came about. Who approached whom? Is it just a social thing? She knows a couple of the Leeds players from her junior days at Dewsbury Moor.

With Leeds bolstering their squad, and Saints likely to get stronger on the back of this year`s success, unless other clubs step up their investment, WSL could settle into a Rangers/Celtic scenario for the foreseeable future.

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5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The rumoured signing on the "WSL Round Up" thread was officially announced on Tuesday. Leeds have an interview on their social media with head coach Lois Forsell, talking about the acquisition and multi-tasking.

As far as I`m aware, there are no direct payments by UK RL clubs to their players. There might be expenses of some description? It was in the ether that this was a possible factor in the departures from Cas to York.

It would be interesting to know how the Georgia Roche move from Cas to Leeds came about. Who approached whom? Is it just a social thing? She knows a couple of the Leeds players from her junior days at Dewsbury Moor.

With Leeds bolstering their squad, and Saints likely to get stronger on the back of this year`s success, unless other clubs step up their investment, WSL could settle into a Rangers/Celtic scenario for the foreseeable future.

If there is no remuneration for playing other than some expenses, you would think that would lessen player movement. I was reading about this at the BBC website which had a whole (but brief) article on the subject. Georgia stated she sees this move as a chance to progress to a higher level in the sport. She was quoted as saying:

"The team has really high ambitions and expectations and I am looking forward to trying to meet them."

If only a few clubs are perceived as ambitious and attract the best players, this could - as you say - create an imbalanced competition with two or three quality clubs and the rest just making up the numbers. 

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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18 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

The rumoured signing on the "WSL Round Up" thread was officially announced on Tuesday. Leeds have an interview on their social media with head coach Lois Forsell, talking about the acquisition and multi-tasking.

As far as I`m aware, there are no direct payments by UK RL clubs to their players. There might be expenses of some description? It was in the ether that this was a possible factor in the departures from Cas to York.

It would be interesting to know how the Georgia Roche move from Cas to Leeds came about. Who approached whom? Is it just a social thing? She knows a couple of the Leeds players from her junior days at Dewsbury Moor.

With Leeds bolstering their squad, and Saints likely to get stronger on the back of this year`s success, unless other clubs step up their investment, WSL could settle into a Rangers/Celtic scenario for the foreseeable future.

I think you can add York Knights into the mix too, they are adding a couple more quality players soon and they’re squad is very young so they’ll push Leeds & Saints. Other clubs will know they need to invest more to compete.

Everything under the sun is in tune

But the sun is eclipsed by the moon

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 18/10/2021 at 22:48, RayCee said:

I know nothing of what women RL players get paid, if anything, in the UK. I did look around the 'net and found this out about minimum payments in Australia:

Domestic: Rugby League $8,500 Aussie rules $16,600, Football $16,350, Rugby 15s Unpaid. 

It`s been announced that Queensland Origin players will be paid $15 000 in 2022.

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On 11/11/2021 at 18:26, unapologetic pedant said:

It`s been announced that Queensland Origin players will be paid $15 000 in 2022.

Yeah, I read that too. That brings it into line with two other codes.

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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On 18/10/2021 at 22:48, RayCee said:

International: Rugby League $2,000 per match, Aussie Rules (N/A), Rugby Union 7s $44,500 Rugby Union 15s $1,000 per match. 

I`d be curious to know where the $44.5k RU 7s money comes from. How much is from World Rugby, how much is public funding via the Australian Olympic Committee?

Aussie 7s player Emma Tonegato has just signed for Dragons NRLW. She`s a former Jillaroo, played in the 2013 Women`s RLWC, before being poached by the ARU.

Another of their high-profile players Ellia Green has also announced she`s leaving the ARU 7s programme. No word on her future plans, but she`s only 28.

This all indicates that without the goal of making the Olympics squad, the attraction of the World 7s circuit might not be too strong. Or that the ARU are struggling to defray their part of the cost of funding the programme.

For the foreseeable future there`s little chance of women being paid much if anything to play RL in the UK. Perhaps the most feasible model is for women to combine playing with various paid roles off the field. They are more likely than the men to view such opportunities as a vocation, meaning the game gets more bang for buck.

Jodie Cunningham has just been appointed "National women and girls development manager". I think the recently-retired Andrea Dobson is a development officer in Sheffield. Not sure if these are full-time jobs.

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Do you see women players in the UK ever getting a reasonable remuneration? I suggested elsewhere there is potential but don’t think there’s much belief it will ever come to much.

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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15 hours ago, RayCee said:

Do you see women players in the UK ever getting a reasonable remuneration? I suggested elsewhere there is potential but don’t think there’s much belief it will ever come to much.

It’s hard to say. 🤔 The skill is on the up but the problem is will it ever be Super League standard. Some decent crowds have been turning up to watch key matches and I get the impression media viewing figures aren’t bad either. Time will tell but as always you raise good points worth considering.

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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18 hours ago, RayCee said:

Do you see women players in the UK ever getting a reasonable remuneration? I suggested elsewhere there is potential but don’t think there’s much belief it will ever come to much.

 

2 hours ago, RayCee said:

It’s hard to say. 🤔 The skill is on the up but the problem is will it ever be Super League standard. Some decent crowds have been turning up to watch key matches and I get the impression media viewing figures aren’t bad either. Time will tell but as always you raise good points worth considering.

You appear to be conversing with a doppelganger here.

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18 hours ago, RayCee said:

Do you see women players in the UK ever getting a reasonable remuneration? I suggested elsewhere there is potential but don’t think there’s much belief it will ever come to much.

 

On 14/11/2021 at 07:35, unapologetic pedant said:

For the foreseeable future there`s little chance of women being paid much if anything to play RL in the UK.

According to @The Blues Ox on a general forum thread, the number of girl players who also watch the game is "very low" compared to the boys. That would need to change. There will have to be a sufficiently large audience demonstrably willing to pay to watch women`s RL, in grounds and on TV, and I can`t see that emerging from the existing male fanbase. 

Junior girls registrations topped two thousand this year. If every one of those, with a handful of family and friends, had attended the WSL GF (in the cultural pilgrimage way people used to go to the RL CC final), the crowd would have been in five figures.

At present, virtually all the funding for the women`s game is linked to the men`s game. That dependent relationship, particularly in UK RL`s reduced circumstances, inevitably means crumbs from the table. The pro clubs and their players will resist the diversion of resources into payments for women.

There are echoes of the Trade Union movement. The female members of my family always bitterly resented having to pay union subscriptions. For the unions, men`s pay was uppermost. Women would only secure a rise if a corresponding deal could be negotiated for the men that maintained the pay differentials between work traditionally done by men and work traditionally done by women.

Which raises another point mentioned on the general forum thread - whether it`s better for WSL teams to be under the aegis of pro or community clubs. Specific case was Leigh or Leigh Miners. In general, I wouldn`t trust pro club owners. How important is a women`s team to them? Whereas the female section at Leigh Miners is now integral to the success of the club.

A few years ago I read about a junior RL club in Western NSW whose playing numbers were so low the future of the club was in jeopardy. So they initiated a League Tag programme. The interest from women and girls far exceeded anything they were expecting. It resulted in a revival of the club. There are similar stories across NSW RL. When a club`s health, even their very existence, depends on female participation, that`s when women will be prioritized for funding.

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5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

 

You appear to be conversing with a doppelganger here.

It was a lighthearted acknowledgment that this end of the forum is all but ignored so desperate measures are sometimes needed to keep a discussion going.

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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On 11/11/2021 at 18:26, unapologetic pedant said:

It`s been announced that Queensland Origin players will be paid $15 000 in 2022.

Is there enough public interest to get a return on this outlay? If so, I would imagine it’s based mainly on returns from tv viewers rather than crowd numbers at the game. I think some negativity to the potential of the women’s game is based on low crowd figures rather than how many would sit in an armchair and enjoy the spectacle*.

All of which makes the comparison with the game in the UK a stark contrast. No payments up yonder. I know the NRL has more income but the fact that there is no remuneration in England at all gives the impression it simply isn’t generating enough interest to warrant it. 

*I personally have grown to enjoy the women’s game on the media but wouldn’t to go to a live game unless family were involved.

Edited by RayCee

My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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16 hours ago, RayCee said:

*I personally have grown to enjoy the women’s game on the media but wouldn’t to go to a live game unless family were involved.

It`s disappointing that someone who takes an off-field interest still wouldn`t go to games, but it does underline my argument that fans of women`s RL are unlikely to come from the existing fanbase.

Other traditionally male-dominated sports have decades head start on RL in generating an attendance culture specifically for women`s games. Soccer especially, even in Oz. Minimal international RL competition is a hindrance too.

16 hours ago, RayCee said:

Is there enough public interest to get a return on this outlay? If so, I would imagine it’s based mainly on returns from tv viewers rather than crowd numbers at the game. I think some negativity to the potential of the women’s game is based on low crowd figures rather than how many would sit in an armchair and enjoy the spectacle*.

There are clearly lots of women and girls who attend men`s RL games who would be no more likely than you to go to women`s games. Feminist critics of the NRL like Katie Brown and Mary Konstantopoulos overlook this point.

If all the women and girls who have a link with RL, either as players or spectators at men`s games, could be relied upon to support women`s games, they would be able to establish their own separate revenue streams.

It`s limiting for all women`s sports when they run concurrently in markets already saturated by the equivalent men`s game. The only significant exception was Soccer in the USA. Even there, the storyline is full of vicissitudes.

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17 hours ago, RayCee said:

It was a lighthearted acknowledgment that this end of the forum is all but ignored so desperate measures are sometimes needed to keep a discussion going.

Looking again at the post where you`re talking to yourself, it reads a bit like a ventriloquist act.

I thought I was on to something with Ray Alan and Lord Charles. But that would be Ray A and Lord Cee.

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The response in NSW to QRL`s announcement of pay parity (it isn`t really parity when you see the details) for men`s and women`s Origin players has been less than ebullient. -

"Yes, we all agree with parity and payments but there`s also the question about how do you fund it" ?

"We agree with the premise, but there`s only a certain amount of money in the pool".

Suggestions the Blues men might have to take a pay cut. I hear lead balloons falling.

It`s understandable in the context that the predicted sponsorship revenue for men`s Origin is $5 million. Equivalent figure for women`s Origin is $100 000.

A NRL CEO is quoted - "The men support the women`s game, no doubt. But I wonder whether that support might wane if it actually hurts them in their hip pocket".

Don`t think we need to wonder too long to find the answer to that one.

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On 15/11/2021 at 13:43, unapologetic pedant said:

 

Which raises another point mentioned on the general forum thread - whether it`s better for WSL teams to be under the aegis of pro or community clubs. Specific case was Leigh or Leigh Miners. In general, I wouldn`t trust pro club owners. How important is a women`s team to them? Whereas the female section at Leigh Miners is now integral to the success of the club.

I can only comment that at York, the commitment that the Knights made this year to women's RL has proved to be a win-win.  Broadening the fanbase, whilst the double-header home matches have been a real success, with over a 1000 (by my reckoning) staying to watch WSL. So, bigger crowds and better value entertainment for the men's fixtures, and far higher levels of exposure and live support for the women's game.

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6 hours ago, RBKnight said:

I can only comment that at York, the commitment that the Knights made this year to women's RL has proved to be a win-win.  Broadening the fanbase, whilst the double-header home matches have been a real success, with over a 1000 (by my reckoning) staying to watch WSL. So, bigger crowds and better value entertainment for the men's fixtures, and far higher levels of exposure and live support for the women's game.

I agree this is currently the best model to justify pro club investment in a women`s team. But it is a dependent relationship.

Women`s RL, even at WSL level, is effectively grass roots RL. Therefore, links with a pro club are only fruitful if the owners are sufficiently enterprising to recognize the relevance of the community game to the size of their fanbase.

If Jon Flatman moved on, to be replaced by the sort of dozy dolt we`re more familiar with in pro RL, would the current imaginative outlook and policies survive?

When women`s standalone games can draw decent crowds and TV audiences, even the short-termist narrow-minded bean counters will see the value. It`s ultimately up to women and girls to make that happen.

From memory, in the 3 years of NRLW, all but 2 of the fixtures have been played alongside men`s NRL games. So up until 2020 they clearly didn`t think NRLW was strong enough to hold its own. The 2 rounds of all-women`s triple-headers next year will provide an interesting gauge.

BTW, I`ve never been able to decide whether it`s better to play women`s games before or after men`s games at double-headers. - Swings and roundabouts.

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On 20/11/2021 at 04:36, unapologetic pedant said:

 

Women`s RL, even at WSL level, is effectively grass roots RL. Therefore, links with a pro club are only fruitful if the owners are sufficiently enterprising to recognize the relevance of the community game to the size of their fanbase.

If Jon Flatman moved on, to be replaced by the sort of dozy dolt we`re more familiar with in pro RL, would the current imaginative outlook and policies survive?

Admittedly, not all clubs will be in York's position geographically - being the only local pro club for the community game to relate to. Nonetheless, York could offer a model for many currently down-at heel-clubs about the possibilities of regeneration via community engagement and support.

Once the benefits are seen, in terms of sponsorships, media engagement, community involvement and season ticket sales (all generating income) I hope we can move beyond "imaginative outlooks" and realise that this is the way forward for the game in general.....

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10 hours ago, RBKnight said:

Admittedly, not all clubs will be in York's position geographically - being the only local pro club for the community game to relate to. 

There are presently a few parallels between York and Barrow. One dissimilarity is that Barrow are a lot further from RL hubs than York are from W. Yorks. So they won`t be able to instantly lift their women`s team to another level as York did with the signings from Cas. Not unless they really splashed some cash.

 

10 hours ago, RBKnight said:

 Nonetheless, York could offer a model for many currently down-at heel-clubs about the possibilities of regeneration via community engagement and support.

Once the benefits are seen, in terms of sponsorships, media engagement, community involvement and season ticket sales (all generating income) I hope we can move beyond "imaginative outlooks" and realise that this is the way forward for the game in general.....

In my view, this has always been the only model for UK RL that stands a chance of succeeding. But even when our pro clubs have a wealthy owner, he`s more likely to channel resources into top-down wish-fulfilment fantasies than painstaking grass roots development.

Apparently, the 28-player England RU women`s squad who overwhelmed all opposition in their autumn internationals are on full-time contracts.

I fear it won`t be long before some of our best young female RL players will be attracted across. Either by a direct offer, or just informally seeing Union as a more propitious route to a career as a professional athlete.

In Oz, about 5-10 years ago, they were losing female League juniors to the Australian 7s programme. They`ve been able to remedy the problem through investment in NRLW and superior State competitions at open-age and junior rep level. We just don`t have the means to emulate that.

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  • 9 months later...
On 20/11/2021 at 04:36, unapologetic pedant said:

It`s ultimately up to women and girls to make that happen.

Posting this in case the crowd for tomorrow`s WSL finals proves a little underwhelming. York apparently have a bus for supporters. Not sure about Leeds. Decent turnout will depend on neutrals.

It`s something of an understatement to say the RFL don`t have a track record of implementing effective strategies to build new audiences for RL.

Also fair to say the tradition of pro RL clubs is beggar-thy-neighbour, just put a winning team on the field, milk the existing fanbase. All no good because most fans of men`s RL will likely remain stubbornly impervious to the appeal of women`s RL.

When my club Swinton (who`ve gone well this year in League 1, finishing second behind Sheffield) launched their women`s team last year, the club`s YouTube channel hosted a pow wow with three of the players. At the end, the presenter ran a quick quiz. Couple of the questions were - 

"Who are the current women`s Super League champions from 2019" (season was cancelled in 2020)

One of them replied, "I`ve put St. Helens. I don`t even know if they`ve got a team". Another pondered, "Is it the orange and black striped one".

"Who are the current holders of the women`s World Cup from 2017"

Two of them said "England", the other said "Australia". This after additional guidance from the presenter of "I`ll give you a clue. It`s a country".

The above is not untypical. Even players from top WSL clubs don`t seem to follow women`s RL. They turn up for training and matches and do their own thing in their own lane. If they have such limited knowledge, how can they promote themselves, how can they supply interviews that might generate interest? Where will the support come from?

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On 14/11/2021 at 07:35, unapologetic pedant said:

Another of their high-profile players Ellia Green has also announced she`s leaving the ARU 7s programme. No word on her future plans, but she`s only 28.

Little postscript -

Ellia Green has recently announced that she/he is a man. Intriguing that she/he decided this after retiring. Had she/he made the call earlier, she/he would presumably have been required to play against men and wouldn`t have been able to enjoy a career with the Australian women`s Rugby 7s team.

Intriguing too that nobody has demanded that she/he be stripped of her/his Olympic gold medal.

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14 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Posting this in case the crowd for tomorrow`s WSL finals proves a little underwhelming. York apparently have a bus for supporters. Not sure about Leeds. Decent turnout will depend on neutrals.

Apart from the Knights' own coach to the final, the wonderful Heworth ARLFC have their own full coach going. Out of nowhere, Heworth have now got U14 and U16 girls teams in the middle of this season, and they are all going to see their heroes YCK Ladies in action today.

YCK men also play today, in a Championship play-off game at Halifax, kicking off at 5.30pm. This will reduce the crowd at the final from York, but the supporters' bus to Fax is arriving early and is booked in to (I think) Halifax PO Club to ensure they can watch the Final on Sky, and get suitably well-oiled.

Meanwhile, there is an all-afternoon watch party in the Bootham Tavern in York for both fixtures (food laid on by club sponsors), with the Ladies due in the pub tonight at 8pm with - hopefully - the trophy in their hands.

We might be a Championship club with an average home gate of just over 2,000, but there is no lack of interest the fortunes of YCK Ladies here, and huge levels of goodwill.....

 

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I put these two blog articles out for the season just gone. 

https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/2022/09/uk-womens-2022-season-group-1.html

https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/2022/09/uk-womens-2022-season-group-2.html

or you could just go to https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/ to see both. 

Any feedback most welcome. 

 

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My blog: https://rugbyl.blogspot.co.nz/

It takes wisdom to know when a discussion has run its course.

It takes reasonableness to end that discussion. 

 

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7 hours ago, RayCee said:

Any feedback most welcome. 

Currently, the RFL have neither the resources nor control to maintain an even spread of talent across their elite female competition like the NRL. For WSL in 2022 to be the equal of NRLW, the RFL would have needed to be ahead of the curve about 20 years ago when we were competitive at national level with the Aussies. Superfluous to say anything about the chances of that, a pair of my most recently used emojis will suffice - :kolobok_sarcastic_hand::kolobok_girl_cray2:

Anyone who saw the NRLW triple-header on the Central Coast yesterday and our WSL finals will have seen the contrast on and off the field.

Our women`s game will continue to be organized ad hoc, dependent on initiatives from individuals and individual clubs.

A mutually beneficial arrangement emerged at York and Wigan this year with the potential for clubs, particularly those with smaller squads or heavy injury tolls, to strengthen their numbers later in the year with acquisitions from France. The French season ends in June, and they play very few games. Lauréane Biville and Cristina Song Puche found that making it down under is a colossal undertaking. Two or three months in England, finances and personal circumstances permitting, is a more realistic option.

Huddersfield looked okay on what I saw this year, despite some of the score lines. Nonetheless, their overall situation should be assessed before determining their place next year.

Salford are top of the Championship and have so far lost one game all year. Will they be able to step up to WSL Div 2?

Humberside remains the glaring omission in the heartlands. Both Hull FC and Hull KR are some way off WSL standard.

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