NRL and International Footy

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

The international game isn’t ignored. There will be a WC that takes place this year. Australia will play tests before the following World Cup. Just not as many as most on this forum would like.

Per the edit in my previous post tennis, basketball, ice hockey, baseball and cricket all have examples of compromised international events and/or calendars, due to domestic or alternate interests.

I didn't claim we ignored it, I said the opposite, you seem to have just repeated my post back to me. 

I'm not sure I'd agree with your examples, I'm not even sure what you mean by Tennis. 

[Oxford]

22 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Australia will play tests before the following World Cup.

Do you mean warm up games or actual tests?

As for your point about the other sports and international events for the most part those sports don't depend on international competition because their games are international because they tour constantly as individuals.

Our sport not only needs to up its game internationally it needs to make it the flagship and pinacle of its calender and achievement. RL can't faff around for years like Tim Henman, even though he was obviously the model for previous international arrangements where things might happen, could happen or maybe won't or didn't!

[Sports Prophet]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

I didn't claim we ignored it, I said the opposite, you seem to have just repeated my post back to me. 

I'm not sure I'd agree with your examples, I'm not even sure what you mean by Tennis. 

I was reinforcing your point on future internationals having seen @Oxford question you.

My example with tennis related simply to the Davis Cup. A tournament once held in the same regard as any Grand Slam, only different as it was players representing their nation, instead of themselves.

Similar to RL, the “international game” of tennis swiftly declined as the professional arm of the sport gained greater influence and power.

Not all sports have fallen in this way. RU and soccer are great examples of sports that has an international game that survived the increasing power of the professional game. I put this down to strong governance from their respective international governing bodies, World Rugby (I will never stop hating that name) and FIFA. We all know that the IRL has nowhere near the influence on its own game as those two organisations have on their own.

[Sports Prophet]

6 hours ago, Oxford said:

Do you mean warm up games or actual tests?

As for your point about the other sports and international events for the most part those sports don't depend on international competition because their games are international because they tour constantly as individuals.

 

Actual tests. 

Tennis may have player touring the world as individuals, but this doesn’t escape the fact that the international representative arm of the sport and the public interest in that type of competition has drastically diminished in the advent of professional sporting interests.

[Sports Prophet]

3 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

Completely different sports. Individual sports , when the game is a collective it is clear that internationals are where the growth or even survival is for rugby league in the northern hemisphere. I actually couldn´t give a t*ss about Australia tbh, it´s there blocking of us playing other nations that is really the issue. 

The Davis Cup is a team sport, but yes, we can overlook other sports if you wish. 

I can appreciate the frustration you feel regarding the NRL “blocking” other nations from competing (which they do not do).

What do you think the reasons are for the NRL doing this and how do you think these obstacles can be overcome?

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

Solution is really for northern hemisphere to build a third team here, to create own tournament for tv companies and sponsors and to entice non Aussie nations for end of season tests.  Essentially cut out Australia until a World cup.

Long term, European nations tournament in July when sky need content.  Tours of Oceanía when the RU come the other way in November and If we could get the NRL to yield or be forced to yield one meaningless pre season friendly to allow another international before start of season to be a boost for the sport here that would be success. (Eng vs Kiwis, France vs PNG )

Unfortunately that isn't viable.  There's no way to build a third northern hemisphere team without a lot more (and better) eligible players playing in an NH league(s) and that won't happen without a lot more money in the game to attract and retain them.  Regan Grace leaving for RU, the low pay for that RFL receptionist job, etc. show just how far off the pace financially the game in the NH is.

As for tours of Oceania, those have never been financially viable unless the tour also went to Australia.  1996 was disastrous financially and we can be pretty sure that 2019 was too.

[Sports Prophet]

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

No davis cup is a team comp in an overwhelmingly indivual sport no tennis player grows up wanting to win davis cup. If we want to talk about other sports then crazy to ignore association football World cup which dwarfes all else,  but you dont cherry pick that because it wouldnt fit your arguement. 

 

Davis Cup is a national representative competition as much as international rugby league is. No promising tennis junior grows up wishing to win Davis Cup… anymore. That wouldn’t always be the case. Davis Cup profile was once as big as any Grand Slam.

Any accusation of me cherry picking sports as an example is neither correct or relevant. I never once said that all sport models match my case. But if you did read my posts just earlier, you would see I did highlight football and RU as two sports that have travelled different paths. What I did was give an explanation though why I think those sports travelled different paths. See below quote which you have overlooked.

13 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

…

Not all sports have fallen in this way. RU and soccer are great examples of sports that has an international game that survived the increasing power of the professional game. I put this down to strong governance from their respective international governing bodies, World Rugby (I will never stop hating that name) and FIFA. We all know that the IRL has nowhere near the influence on its own game as those two organisations have on their own.

In any case, you did present a solution which is what I did ask you…

2 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

…

Solution is really for northern hemisphere to build a third team here, to create own tournament for tv companies and sponsors and to entice non Aussie nations for end of season tests.  Essentially cut out Australia until a World cup.

Long term, European nations tournament in July when sky need content.  Tours of Oceanía when the RU come the other way in November and If we could get the NRL to yield or be forced to yield one meaningless pre season friendly to allow another international before start of season to be a boost for the sport here that would be success. (Eng vs Kiwis, France vs PNG ) 

 

I absolutely agree. Should the RFL and the IRL see eye to eye, then they should each be planning their own calendars and developing neighbouring countries to a position where the likes of France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Lebanon et al can give the English regular competitive fixtures.

At present, without the NRL stars, none of those nations really represent a strong challenge to England’s status as the best nation in Europe. So that in itself brings its own obstructions. Very few NRL players are going to risk injury, representing a heritage European nation for lunch money outside of a World Cup.

So again, the NRL hold all the cards for the foreseeable future. Mid season internationals against a nation that is heavily dependent on NRL players. Forget about it.

So, for the short term future, this leaves post season internationals/series as far as I am concerned. The biggest carrot to dangle the likes of NZ, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji and PNG is a revenue share model. Unlike models of the past, where England would host touring nations and pay them a pittance of the profits. 

The hurdle I see is that England would be the only healthy pay packet on tour. French tests may bring in a tiny profit, but only a smidge if it did. Any other Euro nation hosting a Pacific Island nation would be a negative financial experience, for governing bodies that don’t have a spare dollar in the first place.

So that leaves all the pacific islands chasing a three test series against England, to maximise revenue and in turn, drastically reducing playing opportunities for multiple touring nations. 

The alternative, would be a four/five nations  series that the RFL and FFR XIII would need to bankroll the event and offer large pay packets to touring nations. Inviting the Kangaroos would be a double edged sword. They would certainly boost crowds, however, would want a larger slice of the profits as they are the drawcard. 

It’s not an easy puzzle to solve, but back to your solution, it really is down to improving the competitiveness of neighbouring countries so that Test matches can be arranged that prove a formidable matchup and in turn brings more paying spectators through the turnstiles than 7000 people at LSV. Not a quick solution unfortunately.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Sports Prophet

[Sports Prophet]

double post

Edited July 20, 2022 by Sports Prophet

[Big Picture]

15 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

He left for more money and a chance to play international footy in meaningful games. So I fail to see how not bothering to build meaningful games for teams other than England or France would change that. I´d use Grace as an example of my point. 

If we are saying that tours of anywhere bar Australia are unviable and we cant get nations up here in Nov because of oceanic cup then the game up here has no other choice but to build another nation here. 

Grace is an example of my point too: leaving for more money.  To have a Wales team able to compete with England, we need there to be a lot more money in the game so it can attract and retain the players like him who are necessary for a Welsh team to be competitive.  Even then that team would almost certainly be playing in small stadiums before small crowds while their RU counterparts play at Millenium Stadium, Murrayfield, Twickenham, etc.

[Big Picture]

25 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

But to get more money, Wales are going to have to play England and France annually to attract commercial sponsors and tv coverage to retain players, have players put there hand up and become more established. RFL made this decision when they binned GB nearly two decades ago so it´s their job and with australia boxing them out of southern hemisphere teams, they have no other choice. It´s do the hard work now or watch the sport die. 

You misunderstood me, I meant more money in the club game which is where the bulk of the money paid to players is.  Grace is leaving for RU because St Helens can't match the money which RU clubs can afford to pay him, not because playing for the Welsh RL team pays less than playing for the Welsh RU team.  And just how much money do you think commercial sponsors and TV networks would pay to see Wales vs England or France in a small stadium in an out-of-the-way place before a small crowd anyway?

To attract and retain plenty of players like him, RL needs a league which can pay them comparable money to what RU and the NRL can offer them, and for those Internationals to get the required interest from broadcasters and sponsors that league will have to be seen as a big deal.  Only then could the Internationals attract the required interest from the public to underwrite those TV and sponsorship contracts.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Big Picture

[Oxford]

14 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Actual tests. 

Tennis may have player touring the world as individuals, but this doesn’t escape the fact that the international representative arm of the sport and the public interest in that type of competition has drastically diminished in the advent of professional sporting interests.

1) thanks

2) I'm not sure but I think that's what I said.

[Sports Prophet]

7 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

 

That is not a serious strategy , that´s admitting the game is dead. We are not going to be the dominate code in NH, we need internationals to build and keep lights on. If people actually did an annual comp in the summer involving Wales France Eng Scot over two weeks that Sky can fill the schedule or split the semi with C4 then it´s a start. Because it wouldn´t be in a 70,000 stadium to start is no excuse not do to it. 

I often contend this point that internationals are the vehicle for the growth you want.

Personally, I feel the club game is a far more suitable a vehicle to increase the profile of RL in England and the surrounding nations.

[Big Picture]

14 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

He gets money and can play for Welsh RU to an audience of millions . You cant just ignore that draw. To begin with not much but the amount it would make for WRL is more than the zero now, which makes it better than the alternative of the last 10-15 years, which is fu*k all and beg australia after they told you and continue to tell you to get be*t. 

That is not a serious strategy , that´s admitting the game is dead. We are not going to be the dominate code in NH, we need internationals to build and keep lights on. If people actually did an annual comp in the summer involving Wales France Eng Scot over two weeks that Sky can fill the schedule or split the semi with C4 then it´s a start. Because it wouldn´t be in a 70,000 stadium to start is no excuse not do to it. 

Again you're overlooking that without the players who won't come in the first place let alone stay without there being a lot money in the game, there is no foundation to build anything on.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

He gets money and can play for Welsh RU to an audience of millions . You cant just ignore that draw. To begin with not much but the amount it would make for WRL is more than the zero now, which makes it better than the alternative of the last 10-15 years, which is fu*k all and beg australia after they told you and continue to tell you to get be*t. 

That is not a serious strategy , that´s admitting the game is dead. We are not going to be the dominate code in NH, we need internationals to build and keep lights on. If people actually did an annual comp in the summer involving Wales France Eng Scot over two weeks that Sky can fill the schedule or split the semi with C4 then it´s a start. Because it wouldn´t be in a 70,000 stadium to start is no excuse not do to it. 

Because it won't have huge interest is exactly why C4 and Sky won't air it. The only internationals which generate interest are Aus and possibly NZ. The Four Nations is a much better way of generating interest and it may be something the NRL are willing to bring back.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I often contend this point that internationals are the vehicle for the growth you want.

Personally, I feel the club game is a far more suitable a vehicle to increase the profile of RL in England and the surrounding nations.

Rugby League will be a club first sport for as long as the NRL wants. And there's nothing England can do about it.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

So Scotland vs England got a higher Audience figure than Eng vs Australia, don´t confuse tragics with the casual audience that commercial deals or tv live off. Also, builiding interest is literally the sports job. If people think they cant do it, they shouldn´t be sttealing a paycheck from the sport. 

Got a higher audience figure where? Scotland doesn't care about rugby league and Sky/C4 are not going to air their matches. This seems like a bit of ramble from you.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

Second, they aren´t bringing it back as they have oceanic cup. So do nothing is the current strategy offered by people who say we cant do northern hemisphere games and by saying that, they immediately offer nothing to the future of the sport. 

We can't do Northern Hemisphere games outside of Eng v Fra or Eng v Combined Nations. The Four Nations would have 3 countries who could beat eachother and enough talent to put a good product on TV.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ShropshireBull said:

You can do them. You can do it in June or July as a knockout system so Scotland play England, Wales vs France and winners play in second week. That´s two weeks of England fixture. Then you can go back to begging australia in november. The alternative and  your solution is nothing, because Australia already told you to do one. 

 

On the BBC, as a recordable fact in the four nations. Your plan is beg australia, when they don´t need you and have Oceanic Cup.  So you have nothing to offer , just like the RFL for the last 15 miserable years. 

It's not my plan and you are showing your true colours here with the personal attacks. Begging Australia is all England can do because of how the authorities have the sport into the ground. You'll just have to come to terms with that.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, ShropshireBull said:

No it can do something else. It´s not personal, your plan is to do the same thing after they already told us with binning a world cup for a year , that´s either laziness, delusion or stockholm syndrome. It can do something else, it´s more honest if you say I have no confidence in the sport to build an alternative product, in which case why are you interested in a sport that is doomed to die. Australia are not going to come to the UK. 

 

You´ve tried nothing and you are all out of ideas. You also ignored that Scot vs Eng got a higher TV audience than Eng vs Australia so your misanthrophy doesn´t even have any statistical weight. 

I have always called for more internationals. You can look back at my previous comments and see that. Eng vs Aus is what the fans will turn out for. You still haven't told me when Eng vs Sco got higher ratings. I'm not in charge of running the sport so don't know why your attacking me personally. Gives me a good idea of what you are like in real life.

[Guest]

Just now, ShropshireBull said:

In the Four Nations tournament , I told you twice. On the BBC , 29th October 2016, do you need spoonfeeding. it was the same tournament that Scotland got an historic draw against NZ and then we promptly did nothing with them, which kind of makes your competitive argument a bit redundent because when they had meaningful games, a team in NH outside of England and France had players put there hands up.

"I have always called for more internations", well if you think the only internations England should aim for are against two nations now off the table (Aus and NZ) then you aren´t actually calling for more internationals are you? If you keep proposing something when it has been made overwhelming clear that Australia are not coming back then you are proposing nothing, it´s not a personal attack to say that position is delusional. How many times do Australia have to tell NH RL they don´t care before it sinks in.

Are you capable of having a normal conversation? That's three times you've done it now. My position is not delusional. I don't think your proposal is realistic but at no point have I used similar language. The Scottish team generates no interest north of the border. You'd know that if you actually talked to a Scot.

[Guest]

Just now, ShropshireBull said:

Obviously not now, that´s the point isn´t it? Australia are not coming back to play unless they are offered more money than would be worth it, so to keep proposing the same thing over and over again to expect a different result, what else would you call that. 

If you propose something that has shown itself again and again to not happen that isn´t normal, that is absurd. It´s the RFL of the last 15 years? Australia come here... No. Err... Australia come here... 

So your not capable of having a normal conversation. We'll leave it there then. You come across as an unpleasant person.

[Man of Kent]

[Sports Prophet]

19 hours ago, ShropshireBull said:

All the stats on this World Cup will deliever a decade worth of coverage that SL had stuck behind a paywall. RU in NH is the Six Nations, it maintains it´s huge commercial pull through this. Idea of a third tier sport being a commercial pull via a club game is naive . 

Biggest Cricket game in the world now? IPL. Big Bash is Cricket Australia’s cash cow. Is it the same for whatever ECB version is?

Ice Hockey? NHL

Basketball? NBA

Gridiron and AFL do rather handsomely without the requirement of international fixtures. MLB, another great league. 

All club competitions.

Lets look at another group that very recently tried the international angle over the club angle… A1 GP originally promoted as the World Cup of Motorsport. Dead in less than 10 seasons. Didn’t come close to F1.

So there are great examples of sports that have club competitions that dwarf international competition. We even have an example that saw a gap in the market in Motorsport, yet the “international” gimmick failed.

Six Nations doesn’t succeed because they are international fixtures. It succeeds because it is an excellently executed piece of marketing making these fixtures so much more than the actual match itself. It must be, because the product is appalling.

So yes, soccer is the largest sport in the world and yes, the international game is huge, but just because it works for that sport, doesn’t mean it works for RL. In fact, I would say the domestic leagues throughout the world draw more eyeballs and media attention than the World Cup. The World Cup is not what makes the EPL and Bundesliga popular competitions globally. They are popular because of their own initiative.

I’m not dismissing the power of international sport. I’m not saying RL shouldn’t try to improve the international game either. What I don’t believe is that the international game is the messiah to save us from the diminishing footprint of RL in the UK. 

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

Second SL is not going to out NRL the NRL so copying your model will merely be a game on life support with being a farm system for NRL.  Great for NRL.  Terrible for us.  Internationals are the sports Best and only hope of relevence in northern hemisphere. 

I beg to differ, but that’s ok. I don’t expect either of us to convince each other.

The NSWRL grew to become the ARL and then amalgamated with News Ltd interests to become the NRL. What do you reckon of the NRL merging with SL to become the global governor of the professional club game?

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, ShropshireBull said:

All countries where association football are not the dominant code which is the massive oversight aussies make when chipping in. 

You say “chipping in” as if my point of view is of less importance and/or of less value than what you have to say. 

I am not “chipping in” any more than you are “chipping in”. I feel I am demonstrating a very well reasoned position, albeit an opposing one to your own.

To the more obvious point you made with this opening, you are again either overlooking, or ignoring the fact I gave aspect to the sport of soccer in both England and Germany and again gave an opinion that the international game is of no consequence to the popularity of the EPL and Bundesliga. See…

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

 

So yes, soccer is the largest sport in the world and yes, the international game is huge, but just because it works for that sport, doesn’t mean it works for RL. In fact, I would say the domestic leagues throughout the world draw more eyeballs and media attention than the World Cup. The World Cup is not what makes the EPL and Bundesliga popular competitions globally. They are popular because of their own initiative.

So no, I wasn’t “chipping in” and the “massive oversight”, I beg to differ, is your own.