rochdale hornets next season

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

On 02/09/2023 at 08:54, HornetsGrey said:

And there is the challenge.   We are too small a business to need to report the full revenues - but I suspect our losses are as big as our revenue.   For every pound in we lost a further pound.   I might well be wrong.   Workingtons General Manager/CEO was on TV recently and he said he needed 1400 fans every game to break even and he was struggling to cover the gap as attendances weren't there.   Granted they have a stadium to maintain, but we are in a worse position if we need the directors to stump up 50% of our income.   So how can the club focus on improving matters - it is a big ask to ask the directors to stump up that level of cash each season.  At some point they will stop.    Matt Rigby has a massive challenge on his hands - but pleased he is trying to make friends rather than enemies in his quest to improve things.  

Some good points being made here and the club have been very open and honest in regular communication about the reality of operating a club at his level post 2021 with very little central funding.

Lets not forget the reason we had to go out to find owners / investors and change from being a society and fans owned model at the end of 2019 was because everyone with an interest in the club knew it was on borrowed time and that was with significant levels of central funding which is now over 80% less than it used to be.

Also while fan owned previously we had Paul Ormerod generously underpinning us finically and the previous year's accounts were skewed by his loan write off as was communicated at the time by the club here  https://www.hornetsrugbyleague.co.uk/article/1051/rochdale-hornets-provide-positive-financial-update

We should be very grateful IMO that we have a Chairman and other shareholders that are committed and trying to get the balance right in terms of showing ambition but also working towards sustainability and realistic growth to ensure Rochdale still has a professional club and we have a team to support. 

[Anita Bath]

Losses are certainly not a rarity in the game thats for sure. In our case the losses were 13 times the tangible assets which is concerning.

You say severe cuts to expenditures have been made in the last 12 months so hopefully this time next year both the financial picture and the product on the field will be much improved.

[Blind side johnny]

On 01/09/2023 at 10:27, Anita Bath said:

Latest annual accounts now available on line.

They dont paint a pretty picture but they cover the year ending 30 November 2022. They report an annual loss of 137k and that is when we won two play off games. They  do not reflect our annus horribillis (2023)

The only way is up…hopefully.

Do you believe that winning two play-off games was profitable or added to the losses?

In these leagues winning can be a costly business.

[Anita Bath]

No but its a marker of a more successful season on the field in the year the accounts relate to.

[Anita Bath]

We also had two more home league games and two challenge cup games ( both against other league teams) in 2022.

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, Anita Bath said:

We also had two more home league games and two challenge cup games ( both against other league teams) in 2022.

Profitable or loss-making?

[Anita Bath]

Who knows, we dont see crowd figures published for games on a regular basis. But if we couldnt make a profit out of a home play off game v Oldham then we really are in bad shape.

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

On 07/09/2023 at 15:19, Blind side johnny said:

Profitable or loss-making?

Id imagine those CC games ran at a loss as do home games against most sides in League 1.

It was stated at the fans forum last year that only the home games against Oldham and Swinton had turned a reasonable profit and the rest either break even or operate at a loss when you factor stadium rental, stewarding costs, staffing and then players salaries, match bonuses and other associated costs.

The RFL really do need to sort the league structure out as this League 1 competition is becoming less sustainable by the year with decreased central funding yet increasing travel and costs.

Edited September 8, 2023 by HornyHornyHorneeet

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

14 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Who knows, we dont see crowd figures published for games on a regular basis. But if we couldnt make a profit out of a home play off game v Oldham then we really are in bad shape.

No bad shape would have been almost certain death by now had this current board not stepped in and if the loyal fans and All Hornets didn't do what they continue to do.

Talk it up not down. Be part of the solution and not part of the problem. How much money do you put in per year to he club from your ivory tower?

Appreciating your outside of the UK and rely on forums and internet gossip as your source of information but presume you still buy a season ticket?, all hornets membership? lottery member?, pay into squad builder?

[Blind side johnny]

17 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Who knows, we dont see crowd figures published for games on a regular basis. But if we couldnt make a profit out of a home play off game v Oldham then we really are in bad shape.

If you dig then you can find attendances etc here: RL Records - Team Directory (rugbyleaguerecords.com)

This is a fascinating site and should keep you occupied until Christmas.

[Bruce Almighty]

I think it's only reasonable that supporters can express genuine concerns about the performance of the team/club, on or off the field.

People raise concerns because I believe in the main they care about the club and want to see a winning side.

I also think all genuine fans are happy that the current board came forward after the club had descended into a year of infighting. That said I for one was disappointed the supporter model did not kick on after those fantastic years of success, innovation and stability.  I don't think the model is flawed, as Hunslet RLFC who use the same supporter model are showing us, (on and off the pitch) and they have also experienced the same decline in central funding. What it does show is that when we had the right people driving the club forward it worked, when we didn't, it didn't. I think that's the truth irrespective of what business model or plan you use.

I like all genuine Hornets fans totally respect and admire Mr Ormerods contribution and ongoing support of the club, if ever there was a Hero of Hornets, then that is him. I have looked online at the Hornets accounts and although Mr Ormerod has put a huge amount of money into the club the vast majority wasn't given to the Supporter owned model, it went to the year Hornets was run by a management company put in place by the RFL I believe. Doing some basic maths from the accounts during the period of supporter ownership, he still though gave a substantial amount averaging a little over £4k a year, an amount not to be sniffed at, but then again the supporter owned model never lost £137k in a season, over the entire duration of support ownership it pretty much broke even. 

Hand on heart, in a lot of ways the club has gone backwards, certainly the results on the field have been by any standard poor, failing to even make the play-offs, our social media from being pretty good seems to have gone totally off the radar, the relationships with the Dale and/or Mayfield have at times been toxic, this must have contributed to absolute tragedy of not hosting the Fiji game.

But, sport gives you the ability to wipe the slate clean each season. There are some green shoots to be positive/excited about, the new CEO Matt seems to be bringing a lot more positivity and is definitely making a really strong impression. Gary Thornton is a good coach with a good track record and with a bit of luck I am sure he can get the lads playing, and there seems to have been at least a pause in hostility with the Dale, hopefully this will continue. 

Hopefully we can all look forward to 2024 and it would be great if the lads cab lift some silverware again come this time next year.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Bruce Almighty

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

19 hours ago, Bruce Almighty said:

I think it's only reasonable that supporters can express genuine concerns about the performance of the team/club, on or off the field.

People raise concerns because I believe in the main they care about the club and want to see a winning side.

I also think all genuine fans are happy that the current board came forward after the club had descended into a year of infighting. That said I for one was disappointed the supporter model did not kick on after those fantastic years of success, innovation and stability.  I don't think the model is flawed, as Hunslet RLFC who use the same supporter model are showing us, (on and off the pitch) and they have also experienced the same decline in central funding. What it does show is that when we had the right people driving the club forward it worked, when we didn't, it didn't. I think that's the truth irrespective of what business model or plan you use.

I like all genuine Hornets fans totally respect and admire Mr Ormerods contribution and ongoing support of the club, if ever there was a Hero of Hornets, then that is him. I have looked online at the Hornets accounts and although Mr Ormerod has put a huge amount of money into the club the vast majority wasn't given to the Supporter owned model, it went to the year Hornets was run by a management company put in place by the RFL I believe. Doing some basic maths from the accounts during the period of supporter ownership, he still though gave a substantial amount averaging a little over £4k a year, an amount not to be sniffed at, but then again the supporter owned model never lost £137k in a season, over the entire duration of support ownership it pretty much broke even. 

Hand on heart, in a lot of ways the club has gone backwards, certainly the results on the field have been by any standard poor, failing to even make the play-offs, our social media from being pretty good seems to have gone totally off the radar, the relationships with the Dale and/or Mayfield have at times been toxic, this must have contributed to absolute tragedy of not hosting the Fiji game.

But, sport gives you the ability to wipe the slate clean each season. There are some green shoots to be positive/excited about, the new CEO Matt seems to be bringing a lot more positivity and is definitely making a really strong impression. Gary Thornton is a good coach with a good track record and with a bit of luck I am sure he can get the lads playing, and there seems to have been at least a pause in hostility with the Dale, hopefully this will continue. 

Hopefully we can all look forward to 2024 and it would be great if the lads cab lift some silverware again come this time next year.

 

It is well known that Hunslet have struggled to survive and sustain as a fan owned entity in recent years. They have been boosted this year by a sponsor / individual investing over and above the clubs limited revenues to back Alan Kilshaw and bring in marque type players at the level which seems to have worked i will give you that. That however gives a false reading of their supporters owned model and its success in my opinion.

In recent years as we did they have struggled with the limitations of a fan owned model and indeed went out publicly for help and enlisted the help of Damien Irvine who like our own Chairman is another highly respected administrator within the sport https://southleedslife.com/fans-back-plans-for-hunslet-rlfcs-financial-future/

Sound's familiar to what Mr Ormerod did for us under fan ownership and i use that term very loosely when in reality we was heavily reliant and indebted to a benefactor while selling it as fan owned when in reality it was owned by its major creditor. 

In terms of loses Mr Ormerod was owed multi six figure sums by the club so in reality was in huge amounts of debt and had he ever decided to call it in the club would have been toast.

The social media i am seeing today is giving positive news of events, re signings and new signings etc. The relationship with Mayfield has never been any good and that pre dates the current board. The reasons for the issues with the football club are well documented so i wont bother going back over old ground. I guess you can always paint a picture and a glass is either half empty or half full depending on how you look at it.

As you say Matt seems a positive and a solid appointment by the board. The club seems far more active in the community and on development than it has ever been and some good things are happening. Hopefully we can all look forward to 2024 and get behind a proven coach in Gary Thornton who seems to have the backing of our Chairman an and board 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by HornyHornyHorneeet

[Anita Bath]

10 hours ago, HornyHornyHorneeet said:

No bad shape would have been almost certain death by now had this current board not stepped in and if the loyal fans and All Hornets didn't do what they continue to do.

Talk it up not down. Be part of the solution and not part of the problem. How much money do you put in per year to he club from your ivory tower?

Appreciating your outside of the UK and rely on forums and internet gossip as your source of information but presume you still buy a season ticket?, all hornets membership? lottery member?, pay into squad builder?

Ah, my stalker HornyHornyAndy is back

Nothing in my posts in this thread involved criticism of the club or any individual at the club. They are comments on the current state of Rugby League at the league 1 level.

I have checked the rules for contributing to this forum and I seem to be as qualified as anyone else to post comments. 

Mind you if I could get the same deal on shares as the current board members got then Id be interested. What was it….100 quid for full ownership? When will shares be put up for sale?
 

 

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

9 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

Ah, my stalker HornyHornyAndy is back

Nothing in my posts in this thread involved criticism of the club or any individual at the club. They are comments on the current state of Rugby League at the league 1 level.

I have checked the rules for contributing to this forum and I seem to be as qualified as anyone else to post comments. 

Mind you if I could get the same deal on shares as the current board members got then Id be interested. What was it….100 quid for full ownership? When will shares be put up for sale?
 

 

Email the club i am sure they would welcome your investment info@hornetsrugbyleague.com 

[Anita Bath]

They can e mail me…they have my details.

[Bruce Almighty]

On 08/09/2023 at 19:21, HornyHornyHorneeet said:

It is well known that Hunslet have struggled to survive and sustain as a fan owned entity in recent years. They have been boosted this year by a sponsor / individual investing over and above the clubs limited revenues to back Alan Kilshaw and bring in marque type players at the level which seems to have worked i will give you that. That however gives a false reading of their supporters owned model and its success in my opinion.

In recent years as we did they have struggled with the limitations of a fan owned model and indeed went out publicly for help and enlisted the help of Damien Irvine who like our own Chairman is another highly respected administrator within the sport https://southleedslife.com/fans-back-plans-for-hunslet-rlfcs-financial-future/

Sound's familiar to what Mr Ormerod did for us under fan ownership and i use that term very loosely when in reality we was heavily reliant and indebted to a benefactor while selling it as fan owned when in reality it was owned by its major creditor. 

In terms of loses Mr Ormerod was owed multi six figure sums by the club so in reality was in huge amounts of debt and had he ever decided to call it in the club would have been toast.

The social media i am seeing today is giving positive news of events, re signings and new signings etc. The relationship with Mayfield has never been any good and that pre dates the current board. The reasons for the issues with the football club are well documented so i wont bother going back over old ground. I guess you can always paint a picture and a glass is either half empty or half full depending on how you look at it.

As you say Matt seems a positive and a solid appointment by the board. The club seems far more active in the community and on development than it has ever been and some good things are happening. Hopefully we can all look forward to 2024 and get behind a proven coach in Gary Thornton who seems to have the backing of our Chairman an and board 

 

 

 

 

I think you make my point for me. Both Hornets and Hunslet as Supporter Own Models were/are able to attract people willing to invest in their respective clubs. As you yourself point out Hunslet, as a supporter own model are able to attract really talented people, as did Hornets under the same model.

I hope, irrespective of which model we operate under we can all agree we need to start challenging for honours again. We need to recapture that winning culture.

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

2 hours ago, Bruce Almighty said:

I think you make my point for me. Both Hornets and Hunslet as Supporter Own Models were/are able to attract people willing to invest in their respective clubs. As you yourself point out Hunslet, as a supporter own model are able to attract really talented people, as did Hornets under the same model.

I hope, irrespective of which model we operate under we can all agree we need to start challenging for honours again. We need to recapture that winning culture.

Id suggest the people attracted and certainly in our case at Rochdale was because of the potential of the club not the fan ownership model it was at the time. I remember from the take over and fan consultancy session at Spotland when Andy and others presented to us prior to the unanimous vote, that it was a belief in Rochdale and the building blocks we had in place that attracted them to Hornets. Clearly they could not have seen a global pandemic ahead and just months after the take over, followed by 80% plus cuts in central funding. They say things like that come in three's and the well documented issues of 2022 could have been the straw to break many a camels back. Thankfully we clearly have a very committed and resilient ownership / leadership. 

In terms of honours yes we all want to see that but most recognise the goal posts have moved and times have clearly changed. The competition at the top end in League One is ridiculous now and it seems like a real dog fight with some clubs throwing crazy money around. However looking at the work that's been done this past 12 months or so at our club to reset the culture with the discipline and stability of a proven coach, staff and the core of a good young team thats been built, i for one am optimistic that with some smart recruitment, which it looks like we are on with, we should be much more competitive in 2024.

Regardless of ownership model's as you say the reality and fact remains that no board has had the unprecedented challenges that this current regime had to face over the past three years since coming in at Rochdale. Without the skill set, experience and investment being made in us i genuinely doubt we would be here now.  The encouraging thing for me also is they aren't just talking about keeping the lights on and surviving, it seems we have a vision built around sustainability, fan engagement and are showing ambition so hopefully the town and everyone who cares about the club and sport of RL can unite and support.

Edited September 11, 2023 by HornyHornyHorneeet

[Bruce Almighty]

The pandemic, reduction in funding etc. isn't and wasn't unique to Hornets. All the professional Rugby League teams have had to endure this. As it is we are currently the worst performing 'heartland' club and have been for 2 out of last 3 seasons.

I suspect every year some teams spend big money at winning the league, but as we showed especially in 2016 its not the be all and end all.

Hopefully Gary can get the lads playing and we can start to challenge for silverware again. I for one have faith in him to do this.

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

4 hours ago, Bruce Almighty said:

The pandemic, reduction in funding etc. isn't and wasn't unique to Hornets. All the professional Rugby League teams have had to endure this. As it is we are currently the worst performing 'heartland' club and have been for 2 out of last 3 seasons.

I suspect every year some teams spend big money at winning the league, but as we showed especially in 2016 its not the be all and end all.

Hopefully Gary can get the lads playing and we can start to challenge for silverware again. I for one have faith in him to do this.

I don't believe i said it was unique.

The point however and what was unique to Hornets was the timing of those unprecedented and largely unforeseen unfortunate events to our club. Undoubtably the change of ownership created a moment in time opportunity for our club to ride an exciting new wave and get on a new trajectory quickly but that was undoubtably heavily impacted and arguably lost due to Covid. Tell me a new ownership / board taking on another of the professional game clubs that had that to contend with? This was then undoubtably compounded by central funding cuts and then further hindered by well documented hostility and problems with the landlord in 2022 which thankfully we now seem to have now got past.

The success we had in 2016 was great but in completely different times and circumstances. I do agree however the on field failure of 2021 in particular before central funding cuts came in and with players like Fui Fui, Rangi, Bennion, Fairclough etc was unacceptable and has not helped. 

Time to look forward though and not back now. What happens in the next 10 years is far more important than what happened in the last 10.

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by HornyHornyHorneeet

[Bruce Almighty]

I don't want to go round in circles on this but I dont think decrying Hornets greatest win in a generation is something most supporters would agree with, certainly we are a long way from ever remotely replicating that feat.

This is my last post on this thread but here is a simple matrix on analysing on the success of otherwise of the club under any given circumstance.

1 Performance on the pitch

2 Attendances 

3 Finance 

4 PR (inc Social Media & Website)

5 Relationships

People can judge for themselves.

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

1 hour ago, Bruce Almighty said:

I don't want to go round in circles on this but I dont think decrying Hornets greatest win in a generation is something most supporters would agree with, certainly we are a long way from ever remotely replicating that feat.

This is my last post on this thread but here is a simple matrix on analysing on the success of otherwise of the club under any given circumstance.

1 Performance on the pitch

2 Attendances 

3 Finance 

4 PR (inc Social Media & Website)

5 Relationships

People can judge for themselves.

We won a third division play off game not the bloody Challenge Cup FFS.

I've followed Hornets long enough to have seen good sides and success at the higher echelons, for example the late 80's, 90's and early 00's when we competed regularly at the top of the second tier for a place in what today is known as Super League. Attendances also blew the socks off 2023 and 2016 so I guess we can all go back in time but its not comparing eggs with eggs or relative to current circumstances or the post pandemic modern day situation the club and the wider sport is in.

Being awarded a piece of silverware for winning a third tier play off game was great but should always be put into context, especially as it was backed by Paul Ormerod's cash and centrally funded to a much higher level than the club has the luxury of today.

We are all eager to have a winning team again and looks like the club are building towards that goal, but against the backdrop of what the club has been through over the past three years which I have taken time to explain to you, then I think your right those with a brain will judge for themselves and most that I speak to are thankful these guys came along and gave us a lifeline so we still have a club to support at all.

In terms of your matrix I guess all clubs are working towards improving each of those key areas of business. You probably think they where all better in 2016 I guess though 

Edited September 12, 2023 by HornyHornyHorneeet

[Athleticgrounds]

On 12/09/2023 at 18:11, HornyHornyHorneeet said:

We won a third division play off game not the bloody Challenge Cup FFS.

I've followed Hornets long enough to have seen good sides and success at the higher echelons, for example the late 80's, 90's and early 00's when we competed regularly at the top of the second tier for a place in what today is known as Super League. Attendances also blew the socks off 2023 and 2016 so I guess we can all go back in time but its not comparing eggs with eggs or relative to current circumstances or the post pandemic modern day situation the club and the wider sport is in.

Being awarded a piece of silverware for winning a third tier play off game was great but should always be put into context, especially as it was backed by Paul Ormerod's cash and centrally funded to a much higher level than the club has the luxury of today.

We are all eager to have a winning team again and looks like the club are building towards that goal, but against the backdrop of what the club has been through over the past three years which I have taken time to explain to you, then I think your right those with a brain will judge for themselves and most that I speak to are thankful these guys came along and gave us a lifeline so we still have a club to support at all.

In terms of your matrix I guess all clubs are working towards improving each of those key areas of business. You probably think they where all better in 2016 I guess though 

Nothing compares to that win at Headingley in 1922, I still remember the crowds at Rochdale Station on the teams return....celebrations in The Flying Horse went long into the night.

[Anita Bath]

Yes but that was before Covid and the cuts to central funding

[glemiln]

I guess a few of us may still remember the effects of sampling Friday night amber potions at the Flying Horse!  

 

[Billy King's Boots]

The measure of validity of any argument here is:

1. Do you buy a season ticket?

2. Do you sponsor a player (or a matchball or a game)?

3. Are you a member of the Lottery?

4. Are you a member of All Hornets?

5. Have you made a financial donation / done a fundraiser for the club?

6. Do you buy club merchandise?

Each of these actions helps take Hornets forward.

 

If you're not doing at least one of these, why not?

Yes, the board has responsibility for leading the club forward, but fans have a responsibility to support them in that endeavour. If you want a successful club, do your bit to bring success.

And that means sticking your hand in your pocket.