Are any Super League Clubs rich?

[RP London]

14 hours ago, Kayakman said:

All kinds of them come to the games...I've talked to, and met, far more Americans than any other demographic...could be 1000... could be 800... or could be 12000...have no exact figures but make no doubt they are there 'en masse'...all anecdotal evidence though..other TWP fans can certainly confirm the large numbers of vacationing American tourists.

I'm sure the clothing sales profits reflect it though!  Laughing all the way to the bank.

have you been to the Diane Abbot school of maths and prediction? could also be 10 and you just keep sitting next to them... 

Its a very interesting possibility and if there are a lot of American Day Trippers it could be a great vein to tap into but I would be more interested with some actual facts rather than made up numbers based on anecdotal evidence.. 

I am very positive about Toronto but some of the posting on here is fanciful at best.. lets get some facts and figures and then start talking properly about what can be learned and what the potential is.. there is definitely good potential just within Toronto but what else.. if there are loads of day trippers and they all go back to the same place then maybe that is the next place to try with a team etc etc.. lets get some facts and talk and stop the over the top hyperbole that is starting to great with people, even those of us that are supporters of expansion and Toronto.. get the facts and make us excited.. the likes of the above we hear everytime there is a new big expansion move.. never happens.. facts not fiction please.

[Kayakman]

10 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yeah, there isn't a question in your post.

Cut a guy a break will ya...jeez,,,,

[Kayakman]

2 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Hmmm I'm not sure that's really the case, Kayak. I wouldn't argue that attendances aren't up when the Wolfpack play, but that's because fans want to see their team play the best and in that league it's TWP, so more come out to watch. It has nothing to do with TWP fans. Furthermore, i'll bet the attendance for Halifax v Leeds is far bigger then against TWP and that will be for the reason above and the additional Leeds fans. 

Anyway - that isn't even the original point that I was replying to. It was your outlandish comments about shirt sales that caught my attention. 

Of course the Leeds attendance will be higher....I don't think you understand the amount oft shirts they are selling...you looking to buy?

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

I genuinely don't know but think the difference will be marginal. We now have heavy rain forecast for Sunday and the hot weather breaking significnatly, both of which will deter a few. I'm not in any way running down TWP's appeal, I just don't think the folk of Halifax will be rushing out in joyous anticiation this weekend.

Well I sure hope they get a good crowd...a playoff game in the Middle 8's, you would think it would Pack them in!

[Kayakman]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

have you been to the Diane Abbot school of maths and prediction? could also be 10 and you just keep sitting next to them... 

Its a very interesting possibility and if there are a lot of American Day Trippers it could be a great vein to tap into but I would be more interested with some actual facts rather than made up numbers based on anecdotal evidence.. 

I am very positive about Toronto but some of the posting on here is fanciful at best.. lets get some facts and figures and then start talking properly about what can be learned and what the potential is.. there is definitely good potential just within Toronto but what else.. if there are loads of day trippers and they all go back to the same place then maybe that is the next place to try with a team etc etc.. lets get some facts and talk and stop the over the top hyperbole that is starting to great with people, even those of us that are supporters of expansion and Toronto.. get the facts and make us excited.. the likes of the above we hear everytime there is a new big expansion move.. never happens.. facts not fiction please.

The American tourists is an interesting angle, and one not really thought of before (I stumbled upon it while kayaking and paddling for many hours).    I'm not privy to the books but it appears, on the face of it, that they are making an absolute killing on the clothing.  Anyone can go to the shop and observe for themselves...there is no alternate agenda here.  Same for the crowd numbers...go to a game and judge for yourself.

Its not my job to get the facts and make you excited, and because some expansion plans have failed in the past and tainted everyones view of expansion is unfortunate....but TWP should not have to wear their failed attempts.  What is happening at TWP should be enough to create its own buzz...what is interesting is the belief and comments of many that aleways assume the worst case scenario (not saying you specifically), what about accepting a 'best case scenario' as a starting point rather than the opposite? 

What is wrong with that?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

17 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Of course the Leeds attendance will be higher....I don't think you understand the amount oft shirts they are selling...you looking to buy?

Not as many as Leeds do <end> 

[Kayakman]

Just now, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Not as many as Leeds do <end> 

Alright, no sense beating a dead horse...but you have no proof to back that up and I think you are totally incorrect in your assumption.

[RP London]

15 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

The American tourists is an interesting angle, and one not really thought of before (I stumbled upon it while kayaking and paddling for many hours).    I'm not privy to the books but it appears, on the face of it, that they are making an absolute killing on the clothing.  Anyone can go to the shop and observe for themselves...there is no alternate agenda here.  Same for the crowd numbers...go to a game and judge for yourself.

Its not my job to get the facts and make you excited, and because some expansion plans have failed in the past and tainted everyones view of expansion is unfortunate....but TWP should not have to wear their failed attempts.  What is happening at TWP should be enough to create its own buzz...what is interesting is the belief and comments of many that aleways assume the worst case scenario (not saying you specifically), what about accepting a 'best case scenario' as a starting point rather than the opposite? 

What is wrong with that?

I know its not your job.. but equally wildly speculating on things that do actually have figures on them is possibly a bit of a dubious path to take.. 

I dont doubt the attendance figures, never have and have defended them on here.. 

I am not doubting they are making a killing on clothing nor that they are selling bucketloads.. and frankly if you are selling more than anyone else (maybe) then great.. 

when you then start putting figures on it you start to look a bit silly because there is absolutely no basis for it. 800-1200 is a massive wild spread.. if it can go up by 400 it can go down by 400 too so maybe its 400 or maybe its 10.. you just dont know.. that is also not a bad thing and the US market is interesting but as I say to start quantifying it with no basis is daft. 

a best case scenario is fine.. not an issue.. but you need some actual numbers, if you are going to use numbers, you're just wildly speculating on a best case scenario and that isnt a point to start from at all.. its not even a point.. its speculation. 

TWP does have to wear the failed attempts even though it is different, it has to wear them because that is human nature.. I am optimistic, I have banged the drum for Toronto and expansion against a load of the usual suspects on here.. but when you start bandying around what you are doing then even I find that difficult to stomach and find it hard to justify.. 

Buzz yes, Optimism yes but it doesnt need this type of number plucking to make that work so frankly stop it and get back to the general optimism or get the figures.. dont just start waving around random made up stats... if you want to add some gravitas to this argument get the stats, if not then dont just pluck figures out of the air and just be positive.. 

You want people on your side.. your turning people away from this buy doing this. The more random stats you pluck from the sky with no basis the more people will start to think there are no real figures and its just the emperors new clothes again.. and thats where you wear the failings of others because they all did this sort of stuff (made it up)

[Kayakman]

15 minutes ago, RP London said:

I know its not your job.. but equally wildly speculating on things that do actually have figures on them is possibly a bit of a dubious path to take.. 

I dont doubt the attendance figures, never have and have defended them on here.. 

I am not doubting they are making a killing on clothing nor that they are selling bucketloads.. and frankly if you are selling more than anyone else (maybe) then great.. 

when you then start putting figures on it you start to look a bit silly because there is absolutely no basis for it. 800-1200 is a massive wild spread.. if it can go up by 400 it can go down by 400 too so maybe its 400 or maybe its 10.. you just dont know.. that is also not a bad thing and the US market is interesting but as I say to start quantifying it with no basis is daft. 

a best case scenario is fine.. not an issue.. but you need some actual numbers, if you are going to use numbers, you're just wildly speculating on a best case scenario and that isnt a point to start from at all.. its not even a point.. its speculation. 

TWP does have to wear the failed attempts even though it is different, it has to wear them because that is human nature.. I am optimistic, I have banged the drum for Toronto and expansion against a load of the usual suspects on here.. but when you start bandying around what you are doing then even I find that difficult to stomach and find it hard to justify.. 

Buzz yes, Optimism yes but it doesnt need this type of number plucking to make that work so frankly stop it and get back to the general optimism or get the figures.. dont just start waving around random made up stats... if you want to add some gravitas to this argument get the stats, if not then dont just pluck figures out of the air and just be positive.. 

You want people on your side.. your turning people away from this buy doing this. The more random stats you pluck from the sky with no basis the more people will start to think there are no real figures and its just the emperors new clothes again.. and thats where you wear the failings of others because they all did this sort of stuff (made it up)

Your points are well taken and I am not privy to the actual figures.  I haven't made anything up but have speculated a little...I'll give you that.  I very well could be wrong and the figures might be even higher?  I did recently speak to a director who said, "We are making a total killing on the clothing sales...more than we ever thought."

TWP is NOT inherently required to carry the baggage of others...every club is responsible for charting their own path.  We are not, nor will we ever accept, to being some type of 'whipping boy'.  From what I have observed in the last while, it appears some people will always be against us and wish us poor luck...so be it.  I'm not saying you are one of these people and I do wish I had the actual stats.  But even when we publish the verified stats (e.g. attendance) there are many who simply don't believe us...the problem is not on this end my friend.

We will continue to paddle our own kayak...our course is true and straight.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

55 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

Alright, no sense beating a dead horse...but you have no proof to back that up and I think you are totally incorrect in your assumption.

Dude you was the one who said and I quote "TWP is selling more clothing than Leeds, probably more than all of the other SL teams put together" - what proof do you have to back any of that up? I'd suggest that it is in fact you that is wrong in your assertions. But likewise, dead.horse.beat

[Kayakman]

Just now, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Dude you was the one who said and I quote "TWP is selling more clothing than Leeds, probably more than all of the other SL teams put together" - what proof do you have to back any of that up? I'd suggest that is in fact you that is wrong in your assertions. But likewise, dead.horse.beat

As previously stated.  I guess we have a difference of opinion and that is fine...if you are watching the Hull KR game when we play them at home, just look at the various clothing items the crowd are wearing.  You surely will believe your own eyes then Doubting Thomas?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 minute ago, Kayakman said:

As previously stated.  I guess we have a difference of opinion and that is fine...if you are watching the Hull KR game when we play them at home, just look at the various clothing items the crowd are wearing.  You surely will believe your own eyes then Doubting Thomas?

We definitely do have a difference of opinion - for all the great things TWP are doing, in terms of fanbase and merchandise I'd be surprised if they're operating at even one tenth of the scale of Leeds Rhinos. Which is fine because the club is like 3 years old and keeps breaking all kind of records but as I say, your outlandish claims are no more than that at present. 

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

As previously stated.  I guess we have a difference of opinion and that is fine...if you are watching the Hull KR game when we play them at home, just look at the various clothing items the crowd are wearing.  You surely will believe your own eyes then Doubting Thomas?

You do know that sports merchandise is a huge thing in the UK too though don't you?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You do know that sports merchandise is a huge thing in the UK too though don't you?

Spot on Dave - I mean you don't produce merchandise if there isn't a market for it surely? 

I think the proof is in the pudding when you do a little comparison here. Leagues apart

https://www.torontowolfpack.com/shop/

https://store.leedsrugby.com/

[RP London]

11 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

1. Your points are well taken and I am not privy to the actual figures.  I haven't made anything up but have speculated a little...I'll give you that. 

2 I very well could be wrong and the figures might be even higher?  I did recently speak to a director who said, "We are making a total killing on the clothing sales...more than we ever thought."

3. TWP is NOT inherently required to carry the baggage of others...every club is responsible for charting their own path. 

4. We are not, nor will we ever accept, to being some type of 'whipping boy'. 

5. From what I have observed in the last while, it appears some people will always be against us and wish us poor luck...so be it. 

6. I'm not saying you are one of these people and I do wish I had the actual stats.  But even when we publish the verified stats (e.g. attendance) there are many who simply don't believe us...

7. the problem is not on this end my friend.

We will continue to paddle our own kayak...our course is true and straight.

dont know how to break the quote up so numbered it instead.. 

1. potato potato you say speculate but speculation is just a fancier word for making up really. 

2. your figures dont sound realistic and if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quaks like a duck 99% of the time its a duck... just becuase they are selling more than they thought does not mean they are selling millions!

3. yes an no.. if you get on like you are then you do.. like it or not you do.. there has been this sort of wild speculation before and so people are going to be sceptical of it.. and that is just the way it is... yes chart your own path of course but dont go about wildly speculating... so many have been happy.. I have been happy.. with the way things have been going and positive.. but this speculation calls some of it in to question becuase it 1. doesnt make sense, 2. seems mightly high and 3. is not based on fact.. all of which we have all heard before.. cut that out and you will find people like me not having the least bit of an issue with the club or how you are doing!

4. stop making up numbers then... say "its going really well, better than expect" that is bang on fine and people will be properly pleased for Toronto and see it as a massive leap forward but to say anything close to "we are outstripping most Super League clubs" or "all super league clubs put together" or whatever nonsense was said, without the figures to back it up, is actually standing there asking someone to whip you... just be sensible

5. yes you will always get this because you are potentially taking away a super league place from someone else.. everyone in any sport that is new will always have detractors..

6. i dont understand the quoral about attendances.. the club releases the figure but people dont believe it looking at the photo, which I do understand a bit.. but then with an explanation of the way sport is viewed etc and where people sit, it makes sense.. that is the way things will work, explain with facts and most people (not all) will understand.. 

7. in this instance it is.. not with Toronto Wolfpack but with you personally... it is your random number generator that people are having an issue with.. if Toronto said "we have sold x" then fine but you are just making it up as you go along.. that is what people are having an issue with! you have given the quote from a director... that quote in itself is brilliant and great news and positive.. why do you need to make up figures and numbers and speculate.. just the quote is good news.. adding the rest makes it (cant believe i am going to say this an I apologise in advance) Fake News!.. just leave it to the facts to speak for themselves.. big it up yes make it up no!

you will continue on, becuase actually this board makes no difference to whether you succeed or not and is just a place for opinions.. but all that is being said is aimed at YOU not TWP.. if you stopped making up the facts and coming out with unsubstantied "facts" then all would be well.. the news coming out is positive, brilliant and all the superlatives it doesnt need extra made up numbers to make it better.. you're making it sound a bit too good that is making people questions the actual good news.. I'm not blaming TWP, they are your statements of which I 100% blame you for.

[RP London]

6 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

Spot on Dave - I mean you don't produce merchandise if there isn't a market for it surely? 

I think the proof is in the pudding when you do a little comparison here. Leagues apart

https://www.torontowolfpack.com/shop/

https://store.leedsrugby.com/

not a single mug!

[Kayakman]

13 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

We definitely do have a difference of opinion - for all the great things TWP are doing, in terms of fanbase and merchandise I'd be surprised if they're operating at even one tenth of the scale of Leeds Rhinos. Which is fine because the club is like 3 years old and keeps breaking all kind of records but as I say, your outlandish claims are no more than that at present. 

Its not about the size of the shop but rather per centage profit margins.  Its not the size of the dog in the fight but the amount of fight in the dog.

[Kayakman]

14 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You do know that sports merchandise is a huge thing in the UK too though don't you?

I don't know if its bigger than over here in reference to sport, I suspect not since people have higher disposable incomes..  And as previously posted by others, many over there seem to buy one jersey and then wear it for years.  Over here these are basically one off all new sales of multiple items (all crammed into 1 and 1/2 years).  It might level off eventually like over there but I doubt it.  We are constantly moving large quantities of new and diversified product; its clearly wealth creation.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I don't know if its bigger than over here in reference to sport, I suspect not since people have higher disposable incomes..  And as previously posted by others, many over there seem to buy one jersey and then wear it for years.  Over here these are basically one off all new sales of multiple items (all crammed into 1 and 1/2 years).  It might level off eventually like over there but I doubt it.  We are constantly moving large quantities of new and diversified product; its clearly wealth creation.

No, that isn't true. Clubs now release a minimum of 2 kits every single year, and they do that because they sell bucket loads.

I think the references to keeping wearing the same kit for years was to Australian fans.

[Dave T]

27 minutes ago, RP London said:

not a single mug!

Choice of 12 different mugs from the Wire shop!

 

https://shop.warringtonwolves.org/advancedsearch.aspx?Term=mug

[RP London]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Choice of 12 different mugs from the Wire shop!

 

https://shop.warringtonwolves.org/advancedsearch.aspx?Term=mug

sign of a great club!!

[Kayakman]

8 minutes ago, RP London said:

dont know how to break the quote up so numbered it instead.. 

1. potato potato you say speculate but speculation is just a fancier word for making up really. 

2. your figures dont sound realistic and if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quaks like a duck 99% of the time its a duck... just becuase they are selling more than they thought does not mean they are selling millions!

3. yes an no.. if you get on like you are then you do.. like it or not you do.. there has been this sort of wild speculation before and so people are going to be sceptical of it.. and that is just the way it is... yes chart your own path of course but dont go about wildly speculating... so many have been happy.. I have been happy.. with the way things have been going and positive.. but this speculation calls some of it in to question becuase it 1. doesnt make sense, 2. seems mightly high and 3. is not based on fact.. all of which we have all heard before.. cut that out and you will find people like me not having the least bit of an issue with the club or how you are doing!

4. stop making up numbers then... say "its going really well, better than expect" that is bang on fine and people will be properly pleased for Toronto and see it as a massive leap forward but to say anything close to "we are outstripping most Super League clubs" or "all super league clubs put together" or whatever nonsense was said, without the figures to back it up, is actually standing there asking someone to whip you... just be sensible

5. yes you will always get this because you are potentially taking away a super league place from someone else.. everyone in any sport that is new will always have detractors..

6. i dont understand the quoral about attendances.. the club releases the figure but people dont believe it looking at the photo, which I do understand a bit.. but then with an explanation of the way sport is viewed etc and where people sit, it makes sense.. that is the way things will work, explain with facts and most people (not all) will understand.. 

7. in this instance it is.. not with Toronto Wolfpack but with you personally... it is your random number generator that people are having an issue with.. if Toronto said "we have sold x" then fine but you are just making it up as you go along.. that is what people are having an issue with! you have given the quote from a director... that quote in itself is brilliant and great news and positive.. why do you need to make up figures and numbers and speculate.. just the quote is good news.. adding the rest makes it (cant believe i am going to say this an I apologise in advance) Fake News!.. just leave it to the facts to speak for themselves.. big it up yes make it up no!

you will continue on, becuase actually this board makes no difference to whether you succeed or not and is just a place for opinions.. but all that is being said is aimed at YOU not TWP.. if you stopped making up the facts and coming out with unsubstantied "facts" then all would be well.. the news coming out is positive, brilliant and all the superlatives it doesnt need extra made up numbers to make it better.. you're making it sound a bit too good that is making people questions the actual good news.. I'm not blaming TWP, they are your statements of which I 100% blame you for.

!.  It is not blind speculation...it is supported by numerous noted observations.

2.  Correct...large quantities with a low profit margin don't mean profit...we have a nice winning balance over here now and we intend to keep it.  You have produced no proof that my figures are not in the ball park.

3.  This argument has been used against TWP from its inception announcement up to the very present day...it has been wrong every time....thats a pattern.  We will not be deterred.

4.  I have made nothing up, but was speculating a bit.  None of my speculations have been shown to be incorrect or disproven whatsoever at any time.

5.  We might get it but we refuse to wear it...we are better than that.  We don't deserve it.

6.  We've tried that over and and over, no they won't, they refuse to accept the facts of the matter due to blind indifference..

7.  No need to 'big it up', the facts speak for themselves.  People have are just having problems accepting the facts.  No false news on this end.

8.  Its not too good to be true:  ITS TRUE!  When will people just learn to accept the reality that TWP is here to stay and well on its way to becoming the top club in RL?  Is it already not the richest club in the Northern Hemisphere?

[RP London]

14 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

I don't know if its bigger than over here in reference to sport, I suspect not since people have higher disposable incomes..  And as previously posted by others, many over there seem to buy one jersey and then wear it for years.  Over here these are basically one off all new sales of multiple items (all crammed into 1 and 1/2 years).  It might level off eventually like over there but I doubt it.  We are constantly moving large quantities of new and diversified product; its clearly wealth creation.

to be fair over here higher disposable income does not relate to how much people spend on sports stuff... football is a case in point.. from my experience almost all our staff here have season tickets to one of the local clubs and buy a new shirt every year.. they are minimum wage.. 

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, Kayakman said:

!.  It is not blind speculation...it is supported by numerous noted observations.

2.  Correct...large quantities with a low profit margin don't mean profit...we have a nice winning balance over here now and we intend to keep it.  You have produced no proof that my figures are not in the ball park.

3.  This argument has been used against TWP from its inception announcement up to the very present day...it has been wrong every time....thats a pattern.  We will not be deterred.

4.  I have made nothing up, but was speculating a bit.  None of my speculations have been shown to be incorrect or disproven whatsoever at any time.

5.  We might get it but we refuse to wear it...we are better than that.  We don't deserve it.

6.  We've tried that over and and over, no they won't, they refuse to accept the facts of the matter due to blind indifference..

7.  No need to 'big it up', the facts speak for themselves.  People have are just having problems accepting the facts.  No false news on this end.

8.  Its not too good to be true:  ITS TRUE!  When will people just learn to accept the reality that TWP is here to stay and well on its way to becoming the top club in RL?  Is it already not the richest club in the Northern Hemisphere?

Provide real and substantiated EVIDENCE and people will believe it.. produce numbers plucked out of thin air and they will not... NONE of this is against TWP it is against YOU.. 

you are making it up because except for observations you have no substantiated proof to back it up and observations are just that.. they do not quantify or qualify anything.. 

[Kayakman]

Just now, RP London said:

to be fair over here higher disposable income does not relate to how much people spend on sports stuff... football is a case in point.. from my experience almost all our staff here have season tickets to one of the local clubs and buy a new shirt every year.. they are minimum wage.. 

Higher disposable incomes DO relate to how much people spend on sports stuff as you call it over here.  Especially when they are Americans on vacation looking to spend and buy Toronto branded sports stuff for numerous friends and family back at home; huge market.