Warrington and Catalans fined

[The Future is League]

17 hours ago, Barry Badrinath said:

But to clarify, at the time,  a lot of posters were complaining about warrington players discipline because of what happened on the pitch and also the Warrington fans behavior in the stand.

 

But Catalans had more players suspended after that match and Catalans have got a bigger fine and previous had to be taken into account.

 

 

Hmmm

Also lets not forget that the Catalans were asked to pay a bond to enter this years Challenge due the low crowd at the 2018 CC final, but Warrington who the Catalans beat in the final weren't asked to pay a penny. I think we are seeing a pattern here, and it doesn't look good on the game.

[LR23]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

Fev had fined for repeat incidents, including racism. That seems pretty serious, I wouldn't be so quick to play those incidents down.

Hull KR had incidents happen on the pitch (not for the first time), and breached 3 operational rules. Their fine was lower than Catalans.

These fines are hefty in RL contexts.

Widnes only got £20k for their fans at that semi versus Cas 5 years ago.

The fine seems exactly in line based on context.

I'm not defending/condemning anyone here but bear with me. Hull KR had just been relegated in awful circumstances whereas Cats v Wire was a nice day out in the sun with nothing at stake other than 2 points.  Yes the KR trouble was on the pitch but I fail to see how that is any better than it being in the stands - Cats should have had more control of the situation. No chairs or other implements were used in the KR trouble as far as I remember. There have been repeated complaints about stewarding at Cats and the positioning of the Away fans under the home bar/VIP area but nothing was done about it. 

On the face of it common sense says Cats should have been fined more than £2.5k more than KR here. You can see why folks are miffed. But as you have pointed out, the key issue is probably the number of operational rules that were breached as you can't arbitrarily slap on fines. 

I've not got any answers to be honest - maybe another look at the rules to better set out a sliding scale of fines?

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

Also lets not forget that the Catalans were asked to pay a bond to enter this years Challenge due the low crowd at the 2018 CC final, but Warrington who the Catalans beat in the final weren't asked to pay a penny. I think we are seeing a pattern here, and it doesn't look good on the game.

Whilst the bond idea was a bad one imho, only an imbecile would fail to see the difference between English clubs and overseas-based clubs.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, LR23 said:

I'm not defending/condemning anyone here but bear with me. Hull KR had just been relegated in awful circumstances whereas Cats v Wire was a nice day out in the sun with nothing at stake other than 2 points.  Yes the KR trouble was on the pitch but I fail to see how that is any better than it being in the stands - Cats should have had more control of the situation. No chairs or other implements were used in the KR trouble as far as I remember. There have been repeated complaints about stewarding at Cats and the positioning of the Away fans under the home bar/VIP area but nothing was done about it. 

On the face of it common sense says Cats should have been fined more than £2.5k more than KR here. You can see why folks are miffed. But as you have pointed out, the key issue is probably the number of operational rules that were breached as you can't arbitrarily slap on fines. 

I've not got any answers to be honest - maybe another look at the rules to better set out a sliding scale of fines?

It is hard to compare like for like when we don't know the Ops rules and what the breaches were. But on the surface, the two incidents (crowd disorder within the stadium) were pretty similar and had a similar level of fine.

Both clubs have had past offences, there had been Hull FC fans on the pitch at KR a few years earlier, maybe the response to that wasn't brilliant.

One thing to note was that Catalans had to pay £17,500 instantly, whereas KR only paid £5k instantly. The remaining amounts were suspended for both clubs. It would appear that Catalans incident has been treated more severely.

 

On the Wire element, if this was compared to the Salford one, it is hard to suggest it was lenient. Salford were fined £10k for the Hull KR incident, with a suspended fine already hanging over them (£3k was paid) for the Hudds incident. 

 

The two fines seem broadly in line with the precedents that have been set to be honest.

Where I do think the RFL have been really weak, is the failure to charge the clubs for not controlling their players. The player behaviour in that game was shambolic, and just using the normal disciplinary process was a weakness. The FA have it right with the 'failure to control your players' charge. I think Wire and Cats should have had a fine for the on-field conduct.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

Fev had fined for repeat incidents, including racism. That seems pretty serious, I wouldn't be so quick to play those incidents down.

Hull KR had incidents happen on the pitch (not for the first time), and breached 3 operational rules. Their fine was lower than Catalans.

These fines are hefty in RL contexts.

Widnes only got £20k for their fans at that semi versus Cas 5 years ago.

The fine seems exactly in line based on context.

I doubt any rational Fev fan would play those incidents down, although if you read the relevant threads on the Fev forum there are clearly some who didn't see anything particularly wrong with (never mind the seriousness of) what happened.

Fev were also fined for HKR 'fans' kicking off at PO Rd in 2017, AFAIK HKR weren't (even though I think they had a suspended fine hanging over them) whereas Fev were fined for events involving 'fans' at Rochdale earlier this season (that was before the chanting incidents) but again AFAIK Rochdale weren't!

[The Future is League]

4 hours ago, Dave T said:

Whilst the bond idea was a bad one imho, only an imbecile would fail to see the difference between English clubs and overseas-based clubs.

So don''t invite overseas clubs to play in the Challenge Cup, which you would agree with would you?.

What will be the excuse from the RFL as to why the challenge cup final crowd was very poorly attended again this year by so called heartland land clubs?

How much air time did the Catalans generate for winning the challenge cup compared to a team from the M62 Corridor?

Only a imbecile would deny that Rugby League is dying in the North of England and needs to expand elsewhere.

 

[Dave T]

33 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

So don''t invite overseas clubs to play in the Challenge Cup, which you would agree with would you?.

What will be the excuse from the RFL as to why the challenge cup final crowd was very poorly attended again this year by so called heartland land clubs?

How much air time did the Catalans generate for winning the challenge cup compared to a team from the M62 Corridor?

Only a imbecile would deny that Rugby League is dying in the North of England and needs to expand elsewhere.

 

Yes, we know, we know, RL is dying in the North. Surely it has already died 30 times by now?

What has that airtime been worth? I'm looking forward to seeing if we can get a good French TV deal, after the last one being canned at £70k per year.

I'm very supportive of Catalans and these expansion efforts, but we need to stop telling ourselves that we need them or we will die. They are just a different way of doing things.

[Dave T]

53 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

I doubt any rational Fev fan would play those incidents down, although if you read the relevant threads on the Fev forum there are clearly some who didn't see anything particularly wrong with (never mind the seriousness of) what happened.

Fev were also fined for HKR 'fans' kicking off at PO Rd in 2017, AFAIK HKR weren't (even though I think they had a suspended fine hanging over them) whereas Fev were fined for events involving 'fans' at Rochdale earlier this season (that was before the chanting incidents) but again AFAIK Rochdale weren't!

Unfortunately the punishments are always pretty difficult and don't always appear to make sense. 

For example, as the away club, the actual club has little control over what happens. But they will often get a fine as a point to those fans to behave, but it will be the club/owner who has to pay the fine. It's an odd one, but not sure what else can be done. 

The home club can also be deemed to be hard done by as often it is other fans who could come and get them a fine. But ultimately the fine will not be because of the trouble, but because of the lack of followed processes. In almost every case it is accepted by the club that they could have followed better processes, but I'm not sure i've ever seen a case where no fine happens because the processes are in place, and followed. That suggests that the clubs can have no complaints. 

I'm not sure about the HKR and Rochdale elements at Fev, but that suggests the opposite of what has been suggested here, that Wire and Catalans were punished leniently. It sounds like others got away with nothing.

So, the claim that the punishments for Catalans and Wire were lenient still haven't been backed up by anybody.

[The Future is League]

21 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, we know, we know, RL is dying in the North. Surely it has already died 30 times by now?

What has that airtime been worth? I'm looking forward to seeing if we can get a good French TV deal, after the last one being canned at £70k per year.

I'm very supportive of Catalans and these expansion efforts, but we need to stop telling ourselves that we need them or we will die. They are just a different way of doing things.

Mate if you don't think Rugby League is dying in the North look at the junior playing numbers

[Tex Evans Thigh]

8 hours ago, Dave T said:

 

Fev had fined for repeat incidents, including racism. That seems pretty serious, I wouldn't be so quick to play those incidents down.

Hull KR had incidents happen on the pitch (not for the first time), and breached 3 operational rules. Their fine was lower than Catalans.

These fines are hefty in RL contexts.

Widnes only got £20k for their fans at that semi versus Cas 5 years ago.

The fine seems exactly in line based on context.

Its probably hard to be objective when it's your team Dave, which is why I was hesitant to mention Fev's fine (which I acknowledge was deserved). Warrington have basically been fined 5k, that's low considering I what I saw on TV. I've no axe to grind with Warrington or Catalans, I like both clubs but I think Warrington in particular are pretty fortunate in this situation. 

These things are always based on opinion so difficult to get a consensus, my opinion is the fines, especially the fact half is suspended, are lenient, so I'll leave it at that.

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Its probably hard to be objective when it's your team Dave, which is why I was hesitant to mention Fev's fine (which I acknowledge was deserved). Warrington have basically been fined 5k, that's low considering I what I saw on TV. I've no axe to grind with Warrington or Catalans, I like both clubs but I think Warrington in particular are pretty fortunate in this situation. 

These things are always based on opinion so difficult to get a consensus, my opinion is the fines, especially the fact half is suspended, are lenient, so I'll leave it at that.

It may be my club, but I have no affinity to those oafs in the crowd and have no issues with any kind of punishment dished out.

But I am still not seeing any comparable incidents where teams have been punished more harshly than Wire, for trouble at an away game. Could you name some?

We know from history that the hosting club are responsible for the stewarding etc and the safety of people in the ground. That is why they get the biggest punishment if these things fail.

 

[Just Browny]

34 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Warrington have basically been fined 5k, that's low considering I what I saw on TV. I've no axe to grind with Warrington or Catalans, I like both clubs but I think Warrington in particular are pretty fortunate in this situation. 

 

Eh?

[Tex Evans Thigh]

59 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Eh?

My mistake, I read it wrong. Thought it said 5k with rest suspended when it was 5k suspended so its a 10k fine in reality. I blame the beer goggles when I was reading it!

My thoughts were that it felt like a 15-20k upfront fine but its done now. Hopefully the fine does its job and acts as a deterrent to idiots from all clubs in the future.

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

Unfortunately the punishments are always pretty difficult and don't always appear to make sense. 

For example, as the away club, the actual club has little control over what happens. But they will often get a fine as a point to those fans to behave, but it will be the club/owner who has to pay the fine. It's an odd one, but not sure what else can be done. 

The home club can also be deemed to be hard done by as often it is other fans who could come and get them a fine. But ultimately the fine will not be because of the trouble, but because of the lack of followed processes. In almost every case it is accepted by the club that they could have followed better processes, but I'm not sure i've ever seen a case where no fine happens because the processes are in place, and followed. That suggests that the clubs can have no complaints. 

I'm not sure about the HKR and Rochdale elements at Fev, but that suggests the opposite of what has been suggested here, that Wire and Catalans were punished leniently. It sounds like others got away with nothing.

So, the claim that the punishments for Catalans and Wire were lenient still haven't been backed up by anybody.

Yes, not trying to claim unfair punishment or leniency for anyone, particularly Fev. As you say without knowing the full evidence and seeing the judgements from the hearings in full it's impossible to compare incidents.