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On 13/07/2021 at 09:40, DoubleD said:

Interesting re. Wimbledon. I'd love to see a representation of demographic for those who watch tennis. I'd imagine it's very middle class, and older generations. I don't see it cutting through to u30s. I've always viewed it as a leisure activity rather than a sport, a bit like golf. That's not to say that athletes at the top of the game aren't deserving 

Can’t speak for Australia, but for the UK that wouldn’t apply at all. While it is seen as a middle class activity to play, big events (especially Wimbledon) is watched by joe public. Dare I say it but Emma Raducanu winning the US Open (a final that was hastily screened on terrestrial television once it was known she would be in it) was as big a story as Ronaldo’s return for Man Utd. She’s become a superstar overnight. She’s also ensured the build up in the week leading up to Wimbledon next June will be insane.

If this 100 greatest sports moments list (voted by the UK public in 2002) was updated to today her win would be in it (as would Federer vs Nadal Wimbledon final, and Murray’s first Wimbledon win).

https://web.archive.org/web/20020204090913/http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/G/greatest_sporting/results.html

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How to build a support base in foreign territory.

NRL: ‘I just fell in love with it’ - How Melbourne Storm is growing its fan base (theage.com.au)

About 83 per cent of the Storm’s ( 28 000 ) 2021 members live in Victoria with 8 per cent from Queensland and 4 per cent from NSW. They also have members in each of the other states and territories and some living overseas.

With 531,000 followers, the Storm’s Facebook account is the second biggest in the NRL behind Brisbane Broncos, and they have 281,000 followers on Instagram and 141,000 on Twitter – those accounts have become their main way of reaching their fans in Victoria.

AFL mega- club Collingwood has vastly more members with more than 82,000 but they trail their NRL neighbours on Facebook (362,000), Instagram (265,000) and Twitter (140,000).

Gee I`d love it if the Melbourne Storm management would set up a franchise in Perth since the NRL won`t, especially given the talk that Foxtel have agreed to increase their funding with the entry of a seventeenth team. You`d have to think that given the time zone difference and the ability to have another late game on the east coast a Western Australian team would work perfectly for the broadcasters. Given the Storms success in attracting sponsors and supporters they might be the perfect outfit to run another team in a new market especially if they could somehow run it at an arms length of their Melbourne/Victorian operation.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Gee I`d love it if the Melbourne Storm management would set up a franchise in Perth since the NRL won`t, especially given the talk that Foxtel have agreed to increase their funding with the entry of a seventeenth team. You`d have to think that given the time zone difference and the ability to have another late game on the east coast a Western Australian team would work perfectly for the broadcasters. Given the Storms success in attracting sponsors and supporters they might be the perfect outfit to run another team in a new market especially if they could somehow run it at an arms length of their Melbourne/Victorian operation.

There ought to be ample management expertise in WA to successfully establish a franchise if they got a fraction of the backing from the NRL that the Giants and Suns have had from the AFL. I agree they could certainly take Melbourne as an example of best practice in many areas.

When this subject arises, the background rhetoric is often "bring back the Western Reds". Personally, I`d rather they went for a new identity. I recall when the branding was revealed for the new teams in 1995, the Western Reds seemed the least evocative. The jersey had a hint of St. Kilda AFL.

Probably all academic anyway. It appears the NRL don`t aspire to compete in AFL strongholds. Defending and consolidating their own heartlands is the extent of their ambition. If The Storm hadn`t already been able to prove their worth, there`s no chance the "rusted-on AFL State" of Victoria would have any part in the plans of this current insular administration.

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The Western Pirates are competing in the SG Ball. I follow NRLWA on Facebook and I have seen before the favoured option of respondents to the question of identity of a returned NRL club would be Reds.

I kind of agree. Pirates means nothing. It’s just a plastic and meaningless mascot. Its not like there would be another WA NRL team for decades. I think the black swan would be another deserving mascot as it is synonymous with WA.

###### poor organised 9s, suitably complemented with ###### poor crowds seems to be the base for many detractors opinion that there is not enough interest in the game there. Shame really.

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6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

The Western Pirates are competing in the SG Ball. I follow NRLWA on Facebook and I have seen before the favoured option of respondents to the question of identity of a returned NRL club would be Reds.

I kind of agree. Pirates means nothing. It’s just a plastic and meaningless mascot. Its not like there would be another WA NRL team for decades. I think the black swan would be another deserving mascot as it is synonymous with WA.

###### poor organised 9s, suitably complemented with ###### poor crowds seems to be the base for many detractors opinion that there is not enough interest in the game there. Shame really.

I don`t like Pirates either. If the genuine fans want "Reds", so be it. I just didn`t like their old jersey with the vertical stripes. WA rep teams look damn fine splendid in black with gold chevron.

It was the WARL finals last weekend. As last year, the local scene comes across as bustling and thriving. They`re doing a lot of things right in terms of building a fanbase - women`s tackle comp, League Tag, junior numbers seem to be healthy. Is anyone at League Central paying attention though?

Never understood why the Triffids album "The Black Swan" is so well-regarded. The one that preceded it "Calenture" is far better. As is "Treeless Plain".

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On 16/09/2021 at 23:11, DC77 said:

Can’t speak for Australia, but for the UK that wouldn’t apply at all. While it is seen as a middle class activity to play, big events (especially Wimbledon) is watched by joe public. Dare I say it but Emma Raducanu winning the US Open (a final that was hastily screened on terrestrial television once it was known she would be in it) was as big a story as Ronaldo’s return for Man Utd. She’s become a superstar overnight. She’s also ensured the build up in the week leading up to Wimbledon next June will be insane.

If this 100 greatest sports moments list (voted by the UK public in 2002) was updated to today her win would be in it (as would Federer vs Nadal Wimbledon final, and Murray’s first Wimbledon win).

https://web.archive.org/web/20020204090913/http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/G/greatest_sporting/results.html

Completely off topic but my point does stand. Wimbledon is churned out by the BBC but most under 30s rarely watch bbc. The mainstream media is made up of middle/upper class and so that suits their agenda/focus. Whereas sport like basketball doesn’t get the same focus. 

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Outstanding ratings figures for Saturday nights Penrith vs. Parra clash.

690 000 Metro with 385 000 in Sydney, 177 000 in Brisbane and 97 000 in Melbourne, the Brisbane and Melbourne figures are outstanding considering neither had teams involved. The Melbourne figure is a particularly great number and shows a continued steady rise in people tuning into Rugby League in that non-traditional market.

390 000 regionals.

442 000 Foxtel.

Total 1 552 000.

New BVOD ratings measuring service had last saturday night`s game at 64 000, I expect there to be an increase on that figure as well.

Last weeks Souths/Penrith match was in the top 10 subscription programmes of all time for Foxtel, and that was across all categories, it was also the most watched Foxtel League match ever. I expect last nights game will break that record and should be another top 10 programme ever as well.

All very positive news as we attempt to extract more money from Foxtel to cover the entry of the seventeenth team and as our next FTA contract is being negotiated as well.

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6 hours ago, The Rocket said:

All very positive news as we attempt to extract more money from Foxtel to cover the entry of the seventeenth team and as our next FTA contract is being negotiated as well.

These figures underline the indispensable value of NRL to broadcasters. And also that, compared to AFL, they have been underpaying for years (especially Channel Nine).

There`s plenty more media lolly out there if NRL negotiators are adept enough to lever it in. 

It`s a fair chance the 17th franchise in Brisbane will be cost-neutral for the NRL, certainly in the medium term, possibly even from the outset, depending on which bid gets the nod.

But the extra game a week that comes with an 18th franchise would surely multiply the potential increase in central revenues. This ought to be the trump card for WA. 

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18 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

These figures underline the indispensable value of NRL to broadcasters. And also that, compared to AFL, they have been underpaying for years (especially Channel Nine)

 

On the General Topics thread Pulga posted SportsIndustry tweets about the gangbuster ratings for the first two weeks of the NRL finals. I went and had a look at the source and there was a tweet that hadn`t been put up on that thread.

"Now for the folks playing at home and on various forums.( obviously catering to the code rivalry here) With all things factored in we predict that the NRL leads the finals ratings race at the end of week 2 by just 0.42%, about 38,000. (9.17m to 9.14m) This estimate includes Nine/9NOW, Fox/Kayo/Go/Now. NZ - no data at all."   SportsIndustry.
 
Have to admit I was a little surprised by this so I went back and added up the ratings figures; FTA metro and regional and Foxtel  (STB) figures for the 6 matches from each code that made up the first two weeks of both codes finals series.
The figures I came up with were 7 350 000* for League and 7 900 000* for the fumbleball, nearly 100 000 more per match for f-ball which was about in line with my expectations. 
 The SportsIndustry data had the NRL down for 9 170 000 and f-ball 9 140 000, that`s 1 820 000 extra for League and 1 240 000 for the other mob. So what I make of that is that over six matches the NRL are averaging about 300 000 per game streaming in its` various guises, f-ball about 200k.
These figures only accentuate the point made in your post and show how easy it is to be misled by headline ratings figures like the ones we get each week in the ' mediaweek " Australian TV ratings site which would often have anyone who reads it think it`s f-ball first and daylight second. 
And we haven`t even considered the approximately 1m viewers from NZ in the League figures and with all due respect to viewers from the Pacific Islands or PNG, Kiwi viewers are as valuable to advertisers as any Australian viewer.
 
* couldn`t find a regional figure for either code for Sun.29th September so I used an estimate based on a similar size  FTA matches.
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Edited by The Rocket
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3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

"Now for the folks playing at home and on various forums.( obviously catering to the code rivalry here) With all things factored in we predict that the NRL leads the finals ratings race at the end of week 2 by just 0.42%, about 38,000. (9.17m to 9.14m) This estimate includes Nine/9NOW, Fox/Kayo/Go/Now. NZ - no data at all."   SportsIndustry.

In any equivalence in numbers of viewers between NRL and AFL, the proportion of those viewers who directly pay to watch is higher for NRL than AFL. Heartlessly utilitarian though it may be, someone`s preparedness to pay for a product is the most telling sign of the value they place on that product.

This ought to mean that, all else being equal, NRL broadcast deals should overall be worth more than AFL broadcast deals. The fact that the reverse is the case denotes a failure of NRL negotiation.

And in relation to the current trend, the proportional gap must have widened this year with the drop in AFL Fox STB figures (down 23% in the regular season and which, in the absence of a plausible alternative explanation, I am partly attributing to RU fans not renewing their subscriptions).

4 hours ago, The Rocket said:

These figures only accentuate the point made in your post and show how easy it is to be misled by headline ratings figures like the ones we get each week in the ' mediaweek " Australian TV ratings site which would often have anyone who reads it think it`s f-ball first and daylight second. 

Both Mediaweek and Sportsindustry are pro-AFL. It`s discernible in their tone and slippery use of comparative statistics. Add the fact that other controllers of the narrative have an RU bias, and it all forms the background against which media companies inveigle the NRL into accepting deals below market rate.

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I looked at the figures for AFL finals and NRL finals to date. Couldn’t find anything for regional, so metrics were off 5 major capital cities including Foxtel and FTA. Appreciated the figures are not complete and welcome advice where I can find more.

In these figures though…

Finals week 1

AFL 4.233m

NRL 3.417m


Finals week 2

AFL 2.282m

NRL 2.098m

 

Finals week 3

AFL 2.744m


source: https://tvblackbox.com.au/ratingsdatabase/2021/09/19/5-city-metro-saturday-18-september-2021/?amp

Now I understand there is streaming to consider too, I disagree NZ counts for anything. Certainly nothing the AFL would care too much about. It’s not their market.

Another key factor in the negotiated contracts will be key the difference in demographic that follow both sports. This may be a perceived difference, I have no real evidence to share except personal experience, which would agree that AFL (especially in the southern states) draws fans equally from all socio economic backgrounds, whilst RL in the northern states is very much favoured more by the blue collar.

The perceived limited impression RL makes on the middle to upper class compared to AFL definitely favours the AFL with regard to the number of potential advertisers.

 

Edited by Sports Prophet
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2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Appreciated the figures are not complete and welcome advice where I can find more.

 

The afl-biased SpotsIndustry themselves, you can read it yourself in the tweet of theirs I posted 3 posts ago, show clearly by even there own biased estimates they have the League ahead of f-ball for the first two weeks of the finals series, not even counting the significant ratings coming in from that other first world country called New Zealand. Which I might add would comfortably add another 1m+ viewers.

And as far as not counting NZ, that would be the same as me saying lets not count South or Western Australia because they don`t mean any thing to the League. 

Another thing that I might add is that I really haven`t seen a great deal of difference in the firms that advertise during the f-ball and the League. Probably the biggest difference is that the f-ball have Coles Supermarkets and Bunnings Hardware chain and the League doesn`t, hardly up-market though, just a national supermarket and hardware chain. 

Typical of course though the League were about to sign a sponsorship deal with Bunnings about 6 months ago and Bunnings backed out because of some off-field scandal at the time. Also Coles do have a sponsorship deal with the Storm, but that`s the Storm for you, light years ahead with player behaviour and media engagement.

It`s a funny thing with the ratings though, f-ball lead on FTA because they have South and Western Oz and the mental ratings in Melbourne. In all the other areas: regionals, Foxtel and streaming the League wins comfortably, and as the Pedant points out, tellingly on the latter two -  where you have to pay.

Interesting that the so-called blue-collar ( the inference being lower income brackets ) are so much more willing to fork out their hard-earned to watch the League while the more up-market afl fan-base prefers theirs free, something doesn`t add up there. 

 

 

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Well you might as well add statistics for viewership in Serbia as well then @The Rocket. Not that viewership figures in Serbia, NZ or USA or Antartica have any bearing on the TV contracts in Australia. WA, SA and Vic do though.

The respective second week of finals saw on Foxtel:

NRL 800k

AFL 749k

hardly a trouncing and even less so when adding the FTA capital city figures saw the AFL’s 51k deficit turn into a 184k lead.

You might be right about the advertisers. I will look to pay a bit more attention over the next few games to get my own opinion. I did bring up some time ago on another thread, the number of significant financial institutions participating in Australia that are currently sponsoring AFL clubs versus the significantly smaller number of financial institutions sponsoring NRL clubs. It’s no major barometer and I am sure there is a defence of some description for the reason behind that, but it is a fact all the same.

Maybe another good one for me to check out are comparison between the car manufacturers that sponsor NRL and AFL clubs.

Anyway, I don’t care which sport wins the viewership battle. I agree with most on this forum that the NRL doesn’t get the TV contracts it deserves for the viewership it pulls. Especially on Pay TV where you have correctly noted that NRL out rates AFL (and has done for some time I believe). I just like to present the facts available to me where it presents a different picture to the one being painted. I get the feeling that the NRL prelims across all platforms over the weekend will drastically close the gap on the AFLs prelim figures, if not overtake. And good luck to them if they do.

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5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

In which case, the figures are useless.

No information is better than disinformation.

Well it’s not really disinformation when it is clearly stated in my post, so please don’t be so dismissive. No need to be so confrontational either, especially not when I have been up front and have asked for enlightenment.

I would say the information is very relative but not complete. Capital cities are a key driver of thought and policy for governments and corporations alike.

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5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Well it’s not really disinformation when it is clearly stated in my post, so please don’t be so dismissive. No need to be so confrontational either, especially not when I have been up front and have asked for enlightenment.

I would say the information is very relative but not complete. Capital cities are a key driver of thought and policy for governments and corporations alike.

Metro figures without regionals gives a false impression of FTA viewership. Candidly drawing attention to that fact is hardly confrontational.

You cannot be unconscious that the contrasting demographics of NSW/QLD with Vic/SA/WA mean regionals are always proportionately a lot higher for NRL than AFL.

You wouldn`t post observations on the relative popularity of the two codes based on metro figures only for Syd/Bri or only Mel/Ade/Per. At least I don`t think you would.

BTW, if you`re not sulking, who`s your pick in today`s minor event?

I assume most neutrals will be behind the Demons. Fifty seven years between drinks is even longer than the Rabbitohs went. If it`s a massive blowout, we`ll know that God is in his heaven and all is right with the world.

Edited by unapologetic pedant
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5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

BTW, if you`re not sulking, who`s your pick in today`s minor event?

 

I don’t sulk and it will take a lot more than opposing opinions on a faceless forum.l for me to start.

I think both teams are evenly matched. It’s not gonna be the GF that most would have predicted because the two best teams are meeting a week early. I hate the Storm and hope the Storm win. Shows you how much I like the Panthers 😂

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5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I assume most neutrals will be behind the Demons. Fifty seven years between drinks is even longer than the Rabbitohs went. If it`s a massive blowout, we`ll know that God is in his heaven and all is right with the world.

I will be rooting for the Dee’s. 

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5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Metro figures without regionals gives a false impression of FTA viewership. Candidly drawing attention to that fact is hardly confrontational.

It would have given a false impression if I hadn’t drawn immediate attention to the fact I was presenting capital city figures only. Drawing attention to it was simply repeating what had already been openly declared.

Suggesting NZ viewing figures have any relevance in a topic of popularity of both sports in Australia is far more obscure. Not that you cared to draw attention to those comments though. Because it didn’t fit your agenda.

Anyhow, as I was intrigued, I kept searching for regional data. I also compiled data of capital city and state populations as well as the number of households in both capital cities and individual states that are used for compiling tv viewership figures. Strangely, there was no date for Regional SA. The research is not complete, but the data looks very promising for RL. Looking forward to sharing when research is complete.

That’s all for now. Time to watch the game.

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2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I will be rooting for the Dee’s. 

I won`t of course be watching today`s minor event live, but out of charity I`ll try to catch the "highlights" later. They`re usually about 7 minutes long. If there`s more than 2 scores in it at the end of the first quarter, I`ll be furiously switching off in disgust. I can catch the rest of the "highlights" in another life.

There ought to be alternative highlights packages of all the best fumbly bits for AFL fans like me.

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15 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I won`t of course be watching today`s minor event live, but out of charity I`ll try to catch the "highlights" later. They`re usually about 7 minutes long. If there`s more than 2 scores in it at the end of the first quarter, I`ll be furiously switching off in disgust. I can catch the rest of the "highlights" in another life.

There ought to be alternative highlights packages of all the best fumbly bits for AFL fans like me.

Lol, do what you want mate. As if I care 😂

Strange of you to get furious over something you care so little for 😂 maybe you should get yourself to the psyche to treat your irrational behaviour.

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2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

It would have given a false impression if I hadn’t drawn immediate attention to the fact I was presenting capital city figures only. Drawing attention to it was simply repeating what had already been openly declared.

Whilst implicitly wondering why someone would bother to post useless information.

 

2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Suggesting NZ viewing figures have any relevance in a topic of popularity of both sports in Australia is far more obscure. Not that you cared to draw attention to those comments though. Because it didn’t fit your agenda.

Wasn`t my point.

Since you mention it though, I think you`re mistaken in dismissing the NZ figures, given that one of the NRL`s franchises represents NZ and the Sky NZ component is relevant to the overall value of the Foxtel broadcast deal.

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2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Anyhow, as I was intrigued, I kept searching for regional data. I also compiled data of capital city and state populations as well as the number of households in both capital cities and individual states that are used for compiling tv viewership figures. Strangely, there was no date for Regional SA. The research is not complete, but the data looks very promising for RL. Looking forward to sharing when research is complete.

The rounded-off figures I have for State populations and 5-city State capital populations are -

NSW - 8.2m, Syd -5.4m.

Vic - 6.7m, Mel - 5.2m.

QLD - 5.2m, Bri -2.6m.

WA - 2.7m, Per - 2.1m.

SA - 1.8m, Ade - 1.4m.

I`ll be interested to see your info on "households that are used for compiling TV viewership figures". According to posters on Oz RL forums, the methodology is skewed to favour AFL. For instance, they claim that Geelong is included in the Melbourne base used to extrapolate the metro figures from, whereas Newcastle is not included in the Sydney base. All of which underlines the importance of regionals to the NRL ratings.

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