Strong rumours NRL #18 team will be PNG

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Keith989 said:

I don't think taking a few games away from Port Morseby is a bad thing at all, nor would it dilute their identity. The Drua does something similar and the team doesn't feel any less Fijian.

It's unrealistic to expect PNG to be able to get big crowds Week in week out, year on year too. This eases the pressure on that front a bit. 

Drua have done better than Pasifika because they have got a clearer identity. That is precisely why I wouldnt want a PNG team playing in Tonga, Samoa et al. Saying that both Drua and Pasifika get rubbish crowds and the NRL can and should be able to do so much better. They are hardly models to follow.

[Bamboozle]

1 hour ago, Keith989 said:

I think you'd be surprised what players are willing to do. Beggars can't be choosers so to speak. 

Fringe players maybe if that.

[Keith989]

25 minutes ago, Damien said:

Drua have done better than Pasifika because they have got a clearer identity. That is precisely why I wouldnt want a PNG team playing in Tonga, Samoa et al. Saying that both Drua and Pasifika get rubbish crowds and the NRL can and should be able to do so much better. They are hardly models to follow.

Drua's crowds have been good in Fiji. There's no chance that the PNG team will play in Tonga and Samoa would only be able to host at most one game a season. I think it's more likely that a couple of games will be in in Aus and the rest in PNG. 

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Keith989 said:

Drua's crowds have been good in Fiji. There's no chance that the PNG team will play in Tonga and Samoa would only be able to host at most one game a season. I think it's more likely that a couple of games will be in in Aus and the rest in PNG. 

I suppose lets just ignore all the small crowds and the fact that the small stadiums simply make them look good relative to the rest of super RU. All cross code though.

[Keith989]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I suppose lets just ignore all the small crowds and the fact that the small stadiums simply make them look good relative to the rest of super RU. All cross code though.

If you think the Druas crowds in Fiji are poor, then I'm not sure what chance PNG have? Unless you think PNG fans are going to shell out for every home game? 

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

If you think the Druas crowds in Fiji are poor, then I'm not sure what chance PNG have? Unless you think PNG fans are going to shell out for every home game? 

Well they have been once you get away from the first sell out, that's why they don't even announce attendances for many games.

I mean PNG having a population about 15 times bigger and a capital city 4 times bigger does help with these things. As does the NRL being a much superior competition than the show that is Super RU.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Damien

[Keith989]

6 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well they have been once you get away from the first sell out, that's why they don't even announce attendances for many games.

I mean PNG having a population about 15 times bigger and a capital city 4 times bigger does help with these things. As does the NRL being a much superior competition than the show that is Super RU.

C'mon you can't seriously be saying this. You know right well the economic and social problems the majority of PNG's face. As if there's going to be thousands travelling from outside the capital to games. 

[Damien]

Just now, Keith989 said:

C'mon you can't seriously be saying this. You know right well the economic and social problems the majority of PNG's face. As if there's going to be thousands travelling from outside the capital to games. 

Well they do for plenty of RL games. As a RL fan surely you know that.

[Keith989]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well they do for plenty of RL games. As a RL fan surely you know that.

Like the 7800 (that looks generous) that turned up against the cook islands? 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Keith989

[Damien]

46 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

Like the 7800 (that looks generous) that turned up against the cook islands? 

And? It's the Cook Islands ffs in a 2nd tier competition with 1 NRL player. What about the sellout crowd against the PM XIII?

Keep trying to compare something in RL negatively to something in RU though.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Damien

[Keith989]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

And? It's the Cook Islands ffs in a 2nd tier competition with 1 NRL player. What about the sellout crowd against the PM XIII?

Keep trying to compare something in RL negatively to something in RU though.

Wtf?? How am I being negative when I'm trying to point out why they might be talking about moving SOME home games abroad? I could be completely wrong (hopefully) and they could sell out every game with ease, but I think they know the economic challenges of that. The comparison isn't between RL and RU ffs, it's a comparison between Fiji and PNG. 

Getting a PNG team into NRL would be an astonishing achievement. Having a PNG team play 75-80% of its games in Port Moresby will be one of the greatest things to ever happen to rugby league. 

[Damien]

3 hours ago, Bamboozle said:

Fringe players maybe if that.

Surely playing for a PNG team would be more attractive for a player than coming to SL with more money too? Im sure they could recruit these kinds of players easily enough. You'd obviously want a core of the best PNG players. You can provide plenty of depth between those two for little cost.

That would probably leave you looking to recruit about 6 higher profile/calibre players for the key spine positions and which they will need to break the bank for, which I'm certain they could do.

Sure they won't be building a premiership wining side from the off but it takes every new club time to settle.

[Keith989]

48 minutes ago, Damien said:

Surely playing for a PNG team would be more attractive for a player than coming to SL with more money too? Im sure they could recruit these kinds of players easily enough. You'd obviously want a core of the best PNG players. You can provide plenty of depth between those two for little cost.

That would probably leave you looking to recruit about 6 higher profile/calibre players for the key spine positions and which they will need to break the bank for, which I'm certain they could do.

Sure they won't be building a premiership wining side from the off but it takes every new club time to settle.

You'd also be surprised what people will do to achieve/keep alive their dreams. I remember watching a documentary about USA basketball players going to Iraq to play pro basketball. I really don't think it's crazy to think that this team will be attractive to foreign players. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Keith989

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, Keith989 said:

You'd also be surprised what people will do to achieve/keep alive their dreams. I remember watching a documentary about USA basketball players going to Iraq to play pro basketball. I really don't think it's crazy to think that this team will be attractive to foreign players. 

No neither do I. I think they will have to pay a premium for some spine players but there's plenty of talent to fill around those more cheaply. I think more important would be the coaching and backroom setup and getting that right.

[Bamboozle]

3 hours ago, Damien said:

Surely playing for a PNG team would be more attractive for a player than coming to SL with more money too? Im sure they could recruit these kinds of players easily enough. You'd obviously want a core of the best PNG players. You can provide plenty of depth between those two for little cost.

That would probably leave you looking to recruit about 6 higher profile/calibre players for the key spine positions and which they will need to break the bank for, which I'm certain they could do.

Sure they won't be building a premiership wining side from the off but it takes every new club time to settle.

If a financially rich club located in a highly desirable part of Australia like the dolphins struggle to land top quality players what chance a PNG team?

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, Bamboozle said:

If a financially rich club located in a highly desirable part of Australia like the dolphins struggle to land top quality players what chance a PNG team?

All teams struggle initially. Nothing new there.

[eal]

PNG will attract NRL level talent, but they will have huge trouble getting marquee players, the ones that win premierships.

[UTK]

11 hours ago, Damien said:

You are clearly just looking for an argument for the sake of it and are trying to shift the goalposts just to argue. You've gone from replying that Cairns is a non-negotiable to this. I never once mentioned anything about a base in the post you replied to either, this is a bizarre argument you seem to want to have for the sake of it and frankly I'm not interested in it.

You quoted an article as backing up what you said and it doesnt in any way shape or form. That is clear. It is also clear there is much to finalise so stop presenting your opinion as fact. I have certainly not misread anything and my opinion is just as valid as yours. 

You quoted me saying I'm not kean on PNG being a nomad team and diluting what can make it special. Taking games away from PNG is something I have seen in various articles. This should be a PNG team representing PNG. Anything that takes even a small number of PNG games away from PNG makes the venture pointless to me. Trying to be an islander team and appeal to completely different cultures, such as Tongans and Samoans and playing games in those countries, won't work either. Other teams could arguably do that better anyway.

Hahaha mate I'm certainly not looking for an argument, I only commented because you've misinterpreted something and I was attempting to make sure you hadn't got the wrong idea. Apologies if that's come across as argumentative, was not intended to be as such at all.

Everybody else that I've seen comment on the bid has managed to understand correctly but alas there's obviously some crossed wires here. 

[Sports Prophet]

13 hours ago, UTK said:

"If we are based in Cairns, obviously Souths have been playing there for 10 years quite successfully so a game or two there, those things are still up for consideration, but definitely playing most of our games in Port Moresby."

Verbatim quote from the bid director himself, "base" is quite clearly referring to where they will live and train. This is widely reported in just about every single piece of media that has come out about the bid team, this particular article is not revolutionary at all. 

 

11 hours ago, Keith989 said:

I don't think taking a few games away from Port Morseby is a bad thing at all, nor would it dilute their identity. The Drua does something similar and the team doesn't feel any less Fijian.

It's unrealistic to expect PNG to be able to get big crowds Week in week out, year on year too. This eases the pressure on that front a bit. 

There are two main matters I have a real issue here with the above two statements @UTK and @Keith989.

1. If a team is based in Cairns 6 of the 7 days a week and spends a total of 12 days in PNG a year, is it really a PNG team?

2. How does the club satisfy the Australian Government’s diplomatic objectives of the team is based out of Cairns and only spends 12 days in PNG?

7 hours ago, Keith989 said:

C'mon you can't seriously be saying this. You know right well the economic and social problems the majority of PNG's face. As if there's going to be thousands travelling from outside the capital to games. 

From a commercial perspective, the club must get great crowds for every home game. It’s imperative the club is seen to be bursting for every home game, otherwise, what’s the point of having a team based out of such a fanatical location?

[EggFace]

I hope it happens as it like like Hawaii or Mexico City getting a NFL team....hopefully they do.

[UTK]

55 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

 

There are two main matters I have a real issue here with the above two statements @UTK and @Keith989.

1. If a team is based in Cairns 6 of the 7 days a week and spends a total of 12 days in PNG a year, is it really a PNG team?

2. How does the club satisfy the Australian Government’s diplomatic objectives of the team is based out of Cairns and only spends 12 days in PNG?

From a commercial perspective, the club must get great crowds for every home game. It’s imperative the club is seen to be bursting for every home game, otherwise, what’s the point of having a team based out of such a fanatical location?

1. Yes, as long as their home games are in PNG then it's a PNG team. In an ideal world and much much further down the track they would be based there, at this stage that just isn't possible.

2. By bringing NRL matches to PNG for 9 months a year every year as opposed to the 1 month a year they currently receive, as well as providing greater opportunities for PNG nationals to earn a living playing RL. 

The $20 Million a season put in by the Australian Government and whatever funds the PNG Government tips in will make up the shortfall commercially, that's without even considering the favour-obtained element of making this deal with the Australian government.

The bottom clubs of the NRL don't set a high bar for attendances, the Sharks barely averaged 11k in their matches at home, the Dragons had 11.7k at Wollongong and 12k at Kogarah, Tigers present a similar average across their Campbelltown/Leichardt games. All of the above regularly fail to attract 10k to home matches. We've had 15k sellouts in Port Moresby for NRL trial games, PMXIII games, Hunters games, and Kumuls games, over a season obviously this won't be sustained but even a 7-8k average would be fine with the other sources of funding. There's also Millions of AUD in sponsorship already invested in the Kumuls, Orchids, Hunters and Digicel Cup. Despite the economic troubles of PNG as a whole there are select wealthy industries and corporations that will jump at the chance to invest in a PNG NRL side. 

 

With all that said, would I have chosen PNG as the next expansion side even with all this government funding - absolutely not. Perth and NZ2 are both exciting opportunities that would add a lot to the game. What I am resigned to is that this will happen, as when V'landys/Abdo go rogue there's rarely any chance of reeling them in. While I think we are several years early for even a Cairns-based proposition, I also feel many of the issues are vastly blown out of proportion and there's a strange standard being applied as to which a PNG club must immediately be entirely self-sufficient/wholly profitable as if several clubs would not have collapsed over the last decade without the NRL stepping in to cover them. 

IF we hold on and manage to make this work over the next 5-10 years the talent pool for clubs 19 and 20 will undoubtedly be created, and RL will gain an additional tier 1 International Nation that competes against Australia/NZ/England in perpetuity. This is IMO the only chance we have at elevating another nation to tier 1 status in the next 20 years, a very unique opportunity in RL terms.

 

[Sports Prophet]

18 minutes ago, UTK said:

1. Yes, as long as their home games are in PNG then it's a PNG team. In an ideal world and much much further down the track they would be based there, at this stage that just isn't possible.

2. By bringing NRL matches to PNG for 9 months a year every year as opposed to the 1 month a year they currently receive, as well as providing greater opportunities for PNG nationals to earn a living playing RL. 

…

The bottom clubs of the NRL don't set a high bar for attendances, the Sharks barely averaged 11k in their matches at home, the Dragons had 11.7k at Wollongong and 12k at Kogarah, Tigers present a similar average across their Campbelltown/Leichardt games. All of the above regularly fail to attract 10k to home matches. We've had 15k sellouts in Port Moresby for NRL trial games, PMXIII games, Hunters games, and Kumuls games, over a season obviously this won't be sustained but even a 7-8k average would be fine with the other sources of funding.

… Despite the economic troubles of PNG as a whole there are select wealthy industries and corporations that will jump at the chance to invest in a PNG NRL side. 

 

1. I disagree this represents PNG. A wolf playing in the chicken coup once a fortnight is still a wolf.

2. I fail to see how playing 10-12 home games in PNG delivers a diplomatic benefit.
 

What is beneficial are new and improved performance centres. Players participating in community activities during the week. Improved playing and coaching opportunities which allows young talent to participate with senior NRL talent without having to move to another country away from their families. There are far better ways to deliver more opportunities for PNG nationals. In addition to Hunters, why not have free cap space for every NRL club to have two U/21s on their books?

If we are satisfied with a fanatical fan base like PNG to deliver avg attendances of 7-8k, then by gosh we set a low bar. Why on earth should we be comparing the commercial viability of any new club with the commercial performance of the lowest NRL performers? Surely a new club should be delivering much more, unless we are going down the AFL route and planning for 25 years of millions underwriting this team. In which case, I go back to the beginning, the team needs to be based in PNG.

[UTK]

10 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

1. I disagree this represents PNG. A wolf playing in the chicken coup once a fortnight is still a wolf.

2. I fail to see how playing 10-12 home games in PNG delivers a diplomatic benefit.
 

What is beneficial are new and improved performance centres. Players participating in community activities during the week. Improved playing and coaching opportunities which allows young talent to participate with senior NRL talent without having to move to another country away from their families. There are far better ways to deliver more opportunities for PNG nationals. In addition to Hunters, why not have free cap space for every NRL club to have two U/21s on their books?

If we are satisfied with a fanatical fan base like PNG to deliver avg attendances of 7-8k, then by gosh we set a low bar. Why on earth should we be comparing the commercial viability of any new club with the commercial performance of the lowest NRL performers? Surely a new club should be delivering much more, unless we are going down the AFL route and planning for 25 years of millions underwriting this team. In which case, I go back to the beginning, the team needs to be based in PNG.

I'm sure there will be community engagement throughout a season, as there is every single time an international team/PMsXIII/NRL Club trial is played there. Less comprehensive than in they were based there fulltime - definitely, but it is what it is at this stage.

You don't see how a year-round presence in PNG delivers diplomatic benefit to the Government? Strange that they're willing to put $20 million+ a year in this bid or that they're willing to put $7 million into the Pacific Championships to ensure PNG (and Fiji next year) host matches. If you still fail to see the interest that is created within PNG for RL matches after the scenes we repeatedly see with NRL players getting swamped from the moment they land then I don't think there's much use in arguing this point.

These new and improved performance centres have already received investment, the Government gave another $2 million last year to fund those elite pathways in PNG. I've seen similar arguments raised around this topic elsewhere, it's becoming very obvious that those who raise this argument have very little knowledge about anything to do with PNG rugby league and are just throwing things at the wall if they sound right. I would not expect everyone to follow each  piece of information that surrounds PNG but if you're going to make this argument, surely you do the bare minimum of research first!

There really aren't many better ways to get PNG nationals into professional contracts than creating an additional top 30 contracts that are targeted towards PNG Nationals, nothing else that you've said re U/21s is mutually exclusive (it's a great idea that I've supported in the past re: all developing nations) so the NRL can implement that if they wish. Comparing an entire franchise to cap-subsidies that a given NRL club may or may not utilise is certainly an interesting argument though. 

7-8k is just a worst-case scenario that should be accounted for because ultimately it is a 3rd world country, ideally they're packed out every week but we'll wait and see. This club is undoubtedly unique in its operation and benefits, as previously mentioned the player pool expansion is incomparable to any other expansion option and present the opportunity to lay foundations that will sustain and accelerate further expansion of the competition. An added benefit is that this player pool will double to create opportunities for international competition that simply aren't replicable elsewhere. No other expansion option provides this element of upside.

[Bamboozle]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

All teams struggle initially. Nothing new there.

Some more than others.

the odds are stacked against a PNG team before a ball has been kicked.

[Keith989]

6 hours ago, UTK said:

1. Yes, as long as their home games are in PNG then it's a PNG team. In an ideal world and much much further down the track they would be based there, at this stage that just isn't possible.

2. By bringing NRL matches to PNG for 9 months a year every year as opposed to the 1 month a year they currently receive, as well as providing greater opportunities for PNG nationals to earn a living playing RL. 

The $20 Million a season put in by the Australian Government and whatever funds the PNG Government tips in will make up the shortfall commercially, that's without even considering the favour-obtained element of making this deal with the Australian government.

The bottom clubs of the NRL don't set a high bar for attendances, the Sharks barely averaged 11k in their matches at home, the Dragons had 11.7k at Wollongong and 12k at Kogarah, Tigers present a similar average across their Campbelltown/Leichardt games. All of the above regularly fail to attract 10k to home matches. We've had 15k sellouts in Port Moresby for NRL trial games, PMXIII games, Hunters games, and Kumuls games, over a season obviously this won't be sustained but even a 7-8k average would be fine with the other sources of funding. There's also Millions of AUD in sponsorship already invested in the Kumuls, Orchids, Hunters and Digicel Cup. Despite the economic troubles of PNG as a whole there are select wealthy industries and corporations that will jump at the chance to invest in a PNG NRL side. 

 

With all that said, would I have chosen PNG as the next expansion side even with all this government funding - absolutely not. Perth and NZ2 are both exciting opportunities that would add a lot to the game. What I am resigned to is that this will happen, as when V'landys/Abdo go rogue there's rarely any chance of reeling them in. While I think we are several years early for even a Cairns-based proposition, I also feel many of the issues are vastly blown out of proportion and there's a strange standard being applied as to which a PNG club must immediately be entirely self-sufficient/wholly profitable as if several clubs would not have collapsed over the last decade without the NRL stepping in to cover them. 

IF we hold on and manage to make this work over the next 5-10 years the talent pool for clubs 19 and 20 will undoubtedly be created, and RL will gain an additional tier 1 International Nation that competes against Australia/NZ/England in perpetuity. This is IMO the only chance we have at elevating another nation to tier 1 status in the next 20 years, a very unique opportunity in RL terms.

 

On the attendances, the 11k at the Sharks will probably be worth more than a sell out in Port Morseby due to ticket pricing.

I can't believe that people think they're aren't  going to be quirks (such as basing in Cairns and playing some home games elsewhere) when having a PI side in a pro competition. I really don't think people are quite grasping the economic realities in PNG.

I remember seeing an article before the Drua's first game where it was mentioned that the price of some tickets were equivalent to a month's wage for most of the country. The situation is supposedly even worse in PNG.