New Zealand Warriors Pathways

[Damien]

This is great to see and has to bode well for the development of young NZ players and particularly attracting the best Rugby talent. Obviously they can still go to Australia but the more pathways the better:

On the side of a field in Auckland on a winter morning prior to the pandemic, a talent spotter aligned to the Warriors could be overheard lamenting the loss of a young prospect to a rival NRL club.

In this case the player lived on a road bordering the club's headquarters at Go Media Stadium and their backyard had, almost literally, been robbed in front of them. Yet again. 

It's an issue that has plagued the Warriors throughout their 30-season history, with the lack of a high-quality and complete junior pathway meaning they were always at a disadvantage compared to clubs located in New South Wales and Queensland.

It left some local teenage talent with a fairly simple equation: go to Australia and play with and against the best of your peers each week in age-group teams that sit under an NRL club's banner, or stay in New Zealand and risk missing out on those valuable development opportunities.

History shows plenty opted for the former. 

But now things are changing thanks to the biggest pathways development the Warriors have ever undertaken, which will see them field teams in the New South Wales Rugby League’s renowned Harold Matthews Cup (under-17) and Jersey Flegg Cup (under-21) for the first time.

It adds to their existing involvement in the NSW SG Ball Cup (under-19) and NSW senior reserve grade competitions and finally gives the Warriors a complete pathway from the early teenage years through to the NRL. 

https://www.nrl.com/news/2024/01/27/what-historic-pathways-expansion-means-for-the-warriors/

[Yakstorm]

It's a real positive for the sport in Auckland that the Warriors will field teams in the Harold Matthews, SG Ball, Jersey Flegg & NSW Cup competitions, both for their development, but also for NZ Rugby League in general. 

It's also great that the Storm are following a similar path, with the club also fielding Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Jersey Flegg teams.

[On the buses]

32 minutes ago, Yakstorm said:

It's a real positive for the sport in Auckland that the Warriors will field teams in the Harold Matthews, SG Ball, Jersey Flegg & NSW Cup competitions, both for their development, but also for NZ Rugby League in general. 

It's also great that the Storm are following a similar path, with the club also fielding Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Jersey Flegg teams.

The talent pool in NZ and especially the Auckland region is ridiculously good.

it seems every NRL club has a pool of kiwi talent throughout the different age groups as well as the 2nd tier open age competitions.

[On the buses]

Definitely needs to be a 2nd NZ side team based in Christchurch playing in the NSW. junior competitions as well.

Lay the groundwork for a South Island NRL team in the not too distant future.

[On the buses]

8 hours ago, Damien said:

This is great to see and has to bode well for the development of young NZ players and particularly attracting the best Rugby talent. Obviously they can still go to Australia but the more pathways the better:

On the side of a field in Auckland on a winter morning prior to the pandemic, a talent spotter aligned to the Warriors could be overheard lamenting the loss of a young prospect to a rival NRL club.

In this case the player lived on a road bordering the club's headquarters at Go Media Stadium and their backyard had, almost literally, been robbed in front of them. Yet again. 

It's an issue that has plagued the Warriors throughout their 30-season history, with the lack of a high-quality and complete junior pathway meaning they were always at a disadvantage compared to clubs located in New South Wales and Queensland.

It left some local teenage talent with a fairly simple equation: go to Australia and play with and against the best of your peers each week in age-group teams that sit under an NRL club's banner, or stay in New Zealand and risk missing out on those valuable development opportunities.

History shows plenty opted for the former. 

But now things are changing thanks to the biggest pathways development the Warriors have ever undertaken, which will see them field teams in the New South Wales Rugby League’s renowned Harold Matthews Cup (under-17) and Jersey Flegg Cup (under-21) for the first time.

It adds to their existing involvement in the NSW SG Ball Cup (under-19) and NSW senior reserve grade competitions and finally gives the Warriors a complete pathway from the early teenage years through to the NRL. 

https://www.nrl.com/news/2024/01/27/what-historic-pathways-expansion-means-for-the-warriors/

The warriors must have lost some serious talent to other NRL clubs during Covid.

good to see them turning it around and moving forward for the future.

[Yakstorm]

4 hours ago, On the buses said:

Definitely needs to be a 2nd NZ side team based in Christchurch playing in the NSW. junior competitions as well.

Lay the groundwork for a South Island NRL team in the not too distant future.

It's such a shame that Shane Richardson's plan for second division never got up, as one of the key proposals was to add Wellington & Christchurch to the pathways. 

There was also a plan to see the NSW Cup actually represent more of the state than what it does, among a number of other strong suggestions. 

QRL adopted a number of their recommendations, expanding to 15 teams and aiming for 16. NSWRL of course did not.

[On the buses]

1 hour ago, Yakstorm said:

It's such a shame that Shane Richardson's plan for second division never got up, as one of the key proposals was to add Wellington & Christchurch to the pathways. 

There was also a plan to see the NSW Cup actually represent more of the state than what it does, among a number of other strong suggestions. 

QRL adopted a number of their recommendations, expanding to 15 teams and aiming for 16. NSWRL of course did not.

I like the model in which the Queensland cup is run on with teams being represented from all over Queensland in various cities and country towns alongside the PNG hunters and tweed heads.

it was also great to see the return of the Clydesdales last year too.

who’s the 16th team going to be mate?

[Sports Prophet]

This is a very positive outcome for NZ RL. I agree with @On the buses, there should be an aim to throw in NZII as well.

I like the eventual idea of three second tiers. NSW, Qld and then a Pacific division for PNG, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, Warriors and NZII with an eye of expanding to maybe include PNGII, FijiII, NZIII and this Pacific XIII being touted out of New Caledonia. Certainly be a better way of spending that government money that is supposedly being touted for an imaginary PNG NRL team. Ideally add an U/18s to run alongside it.

Edited January 28 by Sports Prophet

[On the buses]

8 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

This is a very positive outcome for NZ RL. I agree with @On the buses, there should be an aim to throw in NZII as well.

I like the eventual idea of three second tiers. NSW, Qld and then a Pacific division for PNG, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, Warriors and NZII with an eye of expanding to maybe include PNGII, FijiII, NZIII and this Pacific XIII being touted out of New Caledonia. Certainly be a better way of spending that government money that is supposedly being touted for an imaginary PNG NRL team. Ideally add an U/18s to run alongside it.

I like and prefer the direction the silktails have taken by ditching the Ron Massey cup for the Jersey Flegg competition.

concentrate on the juniors.

[Sports Prophet]

1 hour ago, Yakstorm said:

It's such a shame that Shane Richardson's plan for second division never got up, as one of the key proposals was to add Wellington & Christchurch to the pathways. 

There was also a plan to see the NSW Cup actually represent more of the state than what it does, among a number of other strong suggestions. 

QRL adopted a number of their recommendations, expanding to 15 teams and aiming for 16. NSWRL of course did not.

How does this work in practice? Clubs outside the major metro’s like Capras, Cutters, Pride and Clydesdales, are they playing with almost exclusively local players? These players are not exactly full time professionals, so are many players actually moving to these locations to get a shot of second division footy?

The main question I have is around the idea of a few country based NSW Cup teams. I find it a romantic idea to have teams from say Coffs, Maitland, Wagga, Dubbo and Tamworth, but do they have enough local talent to hold their own? If they don’t, what is the pulling power of these locations to bring in other talent to top the team up?

[On the buses]

12 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

How does this work in practice? Clubs outside the major metro’s like Capras, Cutters, Pride and Clydesdales, are they playing with almost exclusively local players? These players are not exactly full time professionals, so are many players actually moving to these locations to get a shot of second division footy?

The main question I have is around the idea of a few country based NSW Cup teams. I find it a romantic idea to have teams from say Coffs, Maitland, Wagga, Dubbo and Tamworth, but do they have enough local talent to hold their own? If they don’t, what is the pulling power of these locations to bring in other talent to top the team up?

Every Queensland cup side apart from the hunters is affiliated with an NRL team.

[Sports Prophet]

19 minutes ago, On the buses said:

Every Queensland cup side apart from the hunters is affiliated with an NRL team.

Yeah I don’t understand how that works. So a player on NRL contract trains with their NRL club through the week and is then flown out to Mackay or Cairns or Rockhampton on a Friday or something?

Or is it different?

[On the buses]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah I don’t understand how that works. So a player on NRL contract trains with their NRL club through the week and is then flown out to Mackay or Cairns or Rockhampton on a Friday or something?

Or is it different?

I’m not 100% sure mate but I would imagine that the well down the pecking order fringe players of the 30 man NRL squads would maybe train with the Queensland cup side alongside any train&trial development contracted players while any regular player Who is in and around making the game day 18 man squad would fly out to the country towns if they don’t make the cut alongside players who are coming back from injury or juniors promoted from the u21 or u19 competitions.

[Sports Prophet]

9 minutes ago, On the buses said:

I’m not 100% sure mate but I would imagine that the well down the pecking order fringe players of the 30 man NRL squads would maybe train with the Queensland cup side alongside any train&trial development contracted players while any regular player Who is in and around making the game day 18 man squad would fly out to the country towns if they don’t make the cut alongside players who are coming back from injury or juniors promoted from the u21 or u19 competitions.

Yeah see why would you contract a player and not want him around your elite playing squad and training schedules during the week? So the only conclusion I’ve come to is they fly them out a day or two prior.

To put that into perspective for NSW Cup and the regional locations I mentioned like Maitland, Tamworth, Dubbo, Wagga and Coffs does seem like a bit more effort than it’s worth. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see CRL and NSW Cup come together for a true state wide cup. Country towns rallying behind a single representative team in the second tier. I could see it boosting the towns, just can’t see it working in practice unless they had a great income stream and a steady number of paid, top line, non-NRL contracted players. 

I also don’t understand why or which NRL teams need or have multiple second tier options. Do any Sydney clubs partner with any non NSW Cup teams? There are way more second tier clubs than NRL teams, so I don’t understand how it all works in practice. 

[On the buses]

15 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yeah see why would you contract a player and not want him around your elite playing squad and training schedules during the week? So the only conclusion I’ve come to is they fly them out a day or two prior.

To put that into perspective for NSW Cup and the regional locations I mentioned like Maitland, Tamworth, Dubbo, Wagga and Coffs does seem like a bit more effort than it’s worth. Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see CRL and NSW Cup come together for a true state wide cup. Country towns rallying behind a single representative team in the second tier. I could see it boosting the towns, just can’t see it working in practice unless they had a great income stream and a steady number of paid, top line, non-NRL contracted players. 

I also don’t understand why or which NRL teams need or have multiple second tier options. Do any Sydney clubs partner with any non NSW Cup teams? There are way more second tier clubs than NRL teams, so I don’t understand how it all works in practice. 

I’m no expert on Australian geography but I think the one advantage Queensland has over NSW is the geographical spread of decent sized towns compared to NSW.

also I believe souths are affiliated with the Townsville Blackhawks and the Canterbury bulldogs are affiliated with the western Clydesdales.

[audois]

Would it be better if Catalans Dragons looked a programmes like this- one for the.Warriors

The Dragons have a U19 set-up who beat locals very too easy - season after season

Edited January 28 by audois

[On the buses]

1 minute ago, audois said:

Would it be better if Catalans Dragons looked a programmes like this- one for the.Warriors

The Dragons have a U19 set-up who beat locals very too easy - season after season

Absolutely.

before they left the uk competition the junior dragons were not only holding their own against the bigger well established super league academy sides but actually beating them.

but of course it all comes down to funding unfortunately.

[audois]

Just picked-up that Catalans have a young lad Antonio Tokotuu  from New Caledonia for there U19s - their coach Justin Murphy  was down-under last July

[On the buses]

15 minutes ago, audois said:

Just picked-up that Catalans have a young lad Antonio Tokotuu  from New Caledonia for there U19s - their coach Justin Murphy  was down-under last July

Big boy too.

https://treizemondial.fr/les-dragons-catalans-mettent-a-lessai-atonio-tokotuu/

[Damien]

8 hours ago, On the buses said:

Definitely needs to be a 2nd NZ side team based in Christchurch playing in the NSW. junior competitions as well.

Lay the groundwork for a South Island NRL team in the not too distant future.

Absolutely. A 2nd team replicating what the Warriors do, and are going to do with these new pathways, would propel the sport forward in NZ.

[On the buses]

27 minutes ago, Damien said:

Absolutely. A 2nd team replicating what the Warriors do, and are going to do with these new pathways, would propel the sport forward in NZ.

Just imagine the number of talented union schoolboys from the South Island that would be attracted to playing for a South Island RL team playing in the NSW junior competitions on top of the league talent on the South Island.

[Damien]

15 minutes ago, On the buses said:

Just imagine the number of talented union schoolboys from the South Island that would be attracted to playing for a South Island RL team playing in the NSW junior competitions on top of the league talent on the South Island.

Indeed, RU just can't compete with the sheer number of opportunities on offer in the NRL and that would be amplified for NZ talent  with a 2nd NZ team.

Beyond a select few top international players RU in the Southern hemisphere can't compete with the money on offer these days in the NRL either. There is now a huge gulf between the NRL v Super RU with a far more lucrative pathway available in the NRL for the vast majority of those good enough.

[On the buses]

9 minutes ago, Damien said:

Indeed, RU just can't compete with the sheer number of opportunities on offer in the NRL and that would be amplified for NZ talent  with a 2nd NZ team.

Beyond a select few top international players RU in the Southern hemisphere can't compete with the money on offer these days in the NRL either. There is now a huge gulf between the NRL v Super RU with a far more lucrative pathway available in the NRL for the vast majority of those good enough.

Absolutely. Through In a decent international calendar for the kiwi boys and those who want to represent their island heritage alongside the ever increasing popularity of the NRL and RL in the southern hemisphere will be a juggernaut.

[mt smart]

It has been a long time coming.

The Warriors have never had a long term investment strategy. They may have talked a good game, but their biggest failing has been the way they recruit then develop junior footballers (I say junior loosely to include all teams below NRL).

There have been several key changes at the Warriors that have been building towards a properly run development club - starting with the current owner Mark Robinson. I have to admit I did not know what to make of the guy when he took over, although he has a pedigree in the sport. But since his arrival the club has managed to hang onto their CEO (the Warriors go through staff like nothing else) Cameron George, their CEO was at real risk of being cut (he had been there through a number of poor seasons).

But the Owner held onto his CEO who has then been able to take the learning of the years of struggles and made some critical appointments.

Hiring Dally M wining Rookie coach Andrew Webster is the most talked about - but for the long term, the re hiring of former Warriors coach Andrew McFadden as recruitment manager was equally important - McFadden knows the recruitment scene here, he knows the problems, and he was only too happy to move his young family from Australia to base themselves in New Zealand (ex Canberra) long term.

Rehiring an Aussie failed ex Warriors coach like McFadden is not a move the club would have been open minded enough to try in the past.

Why is McFadden different to the others the Warriors discarded? He was the very first coach that managed to impose attacking structure on a Warriors first grade side, under McFadden the reliance on second phase offloads and a side step (Kiwi ball) was trimmed back and placed within set attacking moves.

Even Ivan Cleary failed to teach local NZ players to play structure more complex than second man plays.

Someone at this club finally worked out - that if you find a guy who can teach new skills - you should keep them around a New Zealand side. 

But McFadden has not come back to teach attack (Andrew Webster is all over it-he lectures the Reserves and first grade side in joint sessions-the reserves are always in the first grade coaching talks now).

McFadden has been charged with finding and developing teachable kids, that are able to take on instruction and develop the missing micro skills in their games (many of these kids have been coached by random good will parents who have little formal training and are coaching because League is rapidly dying at junior club level in New Zealand).

The Club made a lot of money last year with record sales of all Warriors interests - to see it reinvested in a proper Juniors program is outstanding. From that you can extrapolate that the Owner and CEO get it - they know the resources have to be reinvested in tomorrow, not season 2024/2025 but seasons 2027/28.

You have to have a four to five year Junior development program with a goal of building a stable of NRL players that represent the best talent pool to come out of New Zealand.

The Warriors have rarely if ever achieved this, they have been out competed in their own country by other NRL clubs for the best juniors (most notably the Melbourne Storm who wisely used assistant coach Stephen Kearney's contacts in the lower North Island to set up a network that consistently finds the best players outside of the Warriors preferred narrow focus of South Auckland).

In the past few seasons the Warriors have tried to counter this by picking up kids from Rugby Union (which is fine ) but they should have been doing this as an over and above strategy - and not a forced into it situation due to losing the recruitment battle in their own sport.

The Warriors winning season last year obviously helps, they had a thousand kids show up for an open try out. 

The Owner of the club is currently looking for a building to house a new Juniors gym (they have recently acquired a new Gym for the seniors) so there is some serious redirecting of profit back into the organisation that the Warriors have never enjoyed before.  

In the past the club has been content to meet cost and stay afloat through jersey sales. Ironically merchandise sales are better than ever, but that is not where the club has its focus anymore, now they are focused on a simple model of delivering a finals team every season, top eight or bust. 

As a life long fan, that is all I want, a club that lands somewhere between 8th and 1st in the regular season, year on year. 

 

Edited January 29 by mt smart

[Worzel]

On 27/01/2024 at 17:37, Damien said:

This is great to see and has to bode well for the development of young NZ players and particularly attracting the best Rugby talent. Obviously they can still go to Australia but the more pathways the better:

On the side of a field in Auckland on a winter morning prior to the pandemic, a talent spotter aligned to the Warriors could be overheard lamenting the loss of a young prospect to a rival NRL club.

In this case the player lived on a road bordering the club's headquarters at Go Media Stadium and their backyard had, almost literally, been robbed in front of them. Yet again. 

It's an issue that has plagued the Warriors throughout their 30-season history, with the lack of a high-quality and complete junior pathway meaning they were always at a disadvantage compared to clubs located in New South Wales and Queensland.

It left some local teenage talent with a fairly simple equation: go to Australia and play with and against the best of your peers each week in age-group teams that sit under an NRL club's banner, or stay in New Zealand and risk missing out on those valuable development opportunities.

History shows plenty opted for the former. 

But now things are changing thanks to the biggest pathways development the Warriors have ever undertaken, which will see them field teams in the New South Wales Rugby League’s renowned Harold Matthews Cup (under-17) and Jersey Flegg Cup (under-21) for the first time.

It adds to their existing involvement in the NSW SG Ball Cup (under-19) and NSW senior reserve grade competitions and finally gives the Warriors a complete pathway from the early teenage years through to the NRL. 

https://www.nrl.com/news/2024/01/27/what-historic-pathways-expansion-means-for-the-warriors/

This is great news, things are slowly starting to fall into place. The Warriors should always have been akin to how the Brisbane Broncos were in the early days, with many advantages in catchment and pathways talent pools, but haven't been able to carve out that "super club" position before. Now it's possible. 

Exciting times eh.