Pacific Championships 2024

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

Sure.  And we would end up with a player (let's pick Jarome Luai as an example) playing SOO while Samoa play internationals mid-season and then for Samoa at the end of the season Pacific Championships and at World Cups.  This will do nothing for the growing credibility of the international game.

I just don’t think the first thing we should do after an international season that has shown such promise is weaken it again.

By far the main thing that has weakened the international game is not playing games.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

By far the main thing that has weakened the international game is not playing games.

I agree.  I just don't think your 'Just play it at the same time as Origin for goodness sake' is the right answer to problem.

[StandOffHalf]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

This is pretty much it isn't it? Short of having completely free weekends mid season, which seems as far away as ever, then other ways need to be found. If you enjoy the international game then I don't see how you would ever be happy with 11 months of no international Rugby League and only 3 end of season games.

In 2018 we had England v NZ in Denver, Tonga v Samoa and PNG v Fiji on the same weekend as SOO, all to near 20k crowds, and I enjoyed them all immensely. Sure teams may not be at full strength etc but I'd take that any day over no match like we have now.

Yeah, if a few decide to go with Origin, fine.

Just get the games on and give the players the option to play more internationals than the three-week end-of-season add-on.

 

[StandOffHalf]

Luai would be the first to don the blue jumper.

I am confident that he would choose Samoa over Origin.

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

Luai would be the first to don the blue jumper.

I am confident that he would choose Samoa over Origin.

I don't understand why we have to make him choose.  Origin is 3 Wednesdays a year and yet we seem to be of the opinion here that the only solution to growing the international game is forcing a player to choose between playing Origin and representing their country.  It is a bizarre solution.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I don't understand why we have to make him choose.  Origin is 3 Wednesdays a year and yet we seem to be of the opinion here that the only solution to growing the international game is forcing a player to choose between playing Origin and representing their country.  It is a bizarre solution.

No one has said it the only solution. It is though a solution and the most obvious to many. It is also what has been done before and 3 standalone SOO/international weekends was what the previous NRL administration was working towards before Abdo and Vlandys tore all that up. The Pacific Tests had been the first steps towards that.

Players have the right to choose what they want to do, it's absurd to make that choice for them.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Damien

[StandOffHalf]

19 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I don't understand why we have to make him choose.  Origin is 3 Wednesdays a year and yet we seem to be of the opinion here that the only solution to growing the international game is forcing a player to choose between playing Origin and representing their country.  It is a bizarre solution.

I'm not hung up on mid-season Tests being run alongside Origin.

In fact, I'd be perfectly happy for a mid-season window that allowed for both.

We at the very least need one Test Match weekend for Fiji vs PNG, Tonga vs Samoa and probably Australia vs NZ.

One Test Match weekend would at least keep internationals alive throughout the year. I would of course prefer more, but that should be the bare minimum.

Edited November 14, 2024 by StandOffHalf

[Damien]

1 minute ago, StandOffHalf said:

I'm not hung up on mid-season Tests being run alongside Origin.

In fact, I'd be perfectly happy for a mid-season window that allowed for both.

We at the very least need one Test match weekend for Fiji vs PNG, Tonga vs Samoa and probably Australia vs NZ.

One Test Match weekend would at least keep internationals alive throughout the year. I would of course prefer more, but that should be the bare minimum.

Yep, absolutely no one has said it's the only solution. It is though unlikely that we will see free weekends around Origin and additional free weekends for any decent mid season international schedule. Maybe we will and if we do then great, still no guarantee clubs would let players do both mind.

[Dunbar]

14 minutes ago, Damien said:

Players have the right to choose what they want to do, it's absurd to make that choice for them.

We can agree or disagree on the value of Origin and internationals running simultaneously, but this sentence is disingenuous at best.

Splitting out the timings of Origin and internationals is not 'making the choice for them', running them simultaneously forces them to make a choice.

Play SOO of Origin at a different time to internationals and there is no conflict and so no choice.

[Dunbar]

14 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

I'm not hung up on mid-season Tests being run alongside Origin.

In fact, I'd be perfectly happy for a mid-season window that allowed for both.

We at the very least need one Test Match weekend for Fiji vs PNG, Tonga vs Samoa and probably Australia vs NZ.

One Test Match weekend would at least keep internationals alive throughout the year. I would of course prefer more, but that should be the bare minimum.

Of course we do.

All major sports have an international window (usually several).  If we cared about international Rugby League, we would have several international windows. 

The point I am making is that the international window and the State of Origin period should not be the same.

[StandOffHalf]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Of course we do.

All major sports have an international window (usually several).  If we cared about international Rugby League, we would have several international windows. 

The point I am making is that the international window and the State of Origin period should not be the same.

And that's a fair point.

I don't really mind either way. I just want more international RL.

[Damien]

Just now, Dunbar said:

We can agree or disagree on the value of Origin and internationals running simultaneously, but this sentence is disingenuous at best.

Splitting out the timings of Origin and internationals is not 'making the choice for them', running them simultaneously forces them to make a choice.

Play SOO of Origin at a different time to internationals and there is no conflict and so no choice.

It's not disingenuous, that's nonsense. They were allowed to choose before and could choose again. Removing that choice and saying there is no international RL period for 11 months of the year is making that choice for them. They now have no option to play international RL and to play SOO instead. 

I think your point is clear and mine certainly is. If you disagree or are simply just trying to split hairs then that's fine but it hardly changes your point or mine.

[Dunbar]

Just now, Damien said:

It's not disingenuous, that's nonsense. They were allowed to choose before and could choose again. Removing that choice and saying there is no international RL period for 11 months of the year is making that choice for them. They now have no option to play international RL and to play SOO instead. 

I think your point is clear and mine certainly is. If you disagree or are simply just trying to split hairs then that's fine but it hardly changes your point or mine.

Just because we forced players to choose between Origin and international representation before doesn't mean we should do it again.

I don't see any value in forcing the likes of Spencer Leniu (the subject of the original article) to choose between representing NSW and representing Samoa.

And saying that having those games separated is somehow making the choice for them is indeed disingenuous. 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, StandOffHalf said:

And that's a fair point.

I don't really mind either way. I just want more international RL.

This is probably what it boils down to. Some want more international RL and think that 11 months a year without it and only 3 games isn't enough. If that means impacted the behemoth that is SOO then so be it. I personally don't think it has to be like that as there are advantages to the NRL of standalone rep weekends too, as the previous administration thought, but lets go with it. If we get a perfect situation where we get 3 SOO weekends and 3 international windows then great. Fantastic, I'm all for it. I just can't see it. As you say I just want more international RL.

[Damien]

6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Just because we forced players to choose between Origin and international representation before doesn't mean we should do it again.

I don't see any value in forcing the likes of Spencer Leniu (the subject of the original article) to choose between representing NSW and representing Samoa.

And saying that having those games separated is somehow making the choice for them is indeed disingenuous. 

Now who's being disingenuous . As I said you've made your point, I made mine and I think its been done to death. No point keep quoting me and saying the same thing to try and split hairs.

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

Now who's being disingenuous . As I said you've made your point, I made mine and I think its been done to death. No point keep quoting me and saying the same thing to try and split hairs.

You called my post nonsense, was I not allowed to reply?

[JM2010]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

I don't understand why we have to make him choose.  Origin is 3 Wednesdays a year and yet we seem to be of the opinion here that the only solution to growing the international game is forcing a player to choose between playing Origin and representing their country.  It is a bizarre solution.

I agree. Although some on here dislike Origin it’s unique to a RL and a massive event in its own right. Leave it as it is and just play internationals at a different time. 
That would then give them SOO and Pacific tests at different times mid season which would both provide lots of fans, viewers and media coverage

[Damien]

20 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

You called my post nonsense, was I not allowed to reply?

I didn't though did I? I said your claim that I was being disingenuous was.

In my last 2 replies I have said about our points being clear, perhaps too subtly trying to move on. I want to give players choice, you don't. We just disagree, that's fine.

[Dunbar]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

I didn't though did I? I said your claim that I was being disingenuous was.

In my last 2 replies I have said about our points being clear, perhaps too subtly trying to move on. I want to give players choice, you don't. We just disagree, that's fine.

Just explain to me one more time how playing Origin and internationals simultaneously and forcing players to choose between the two is better than allowing them to play both... and we can, as you say, move on.

[Jonty58]

1 hour ago, StandOffHalf said:

And that's a fair point.

I don't really mind either way. I just want more international RL.

Why don’t you lobby for more games for England against NH teams then?

France, Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

Or are they not worth playing?

 

 

 

[Damien]

34 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Just explain to me one more time how playing Origin and internationals simultaneously and forcing players to choose between the two is better than allowing them to play both... and we can, as you say, move on.

Hasn't this all been covered? For clarity I will break this down into 3 rough paths.

1) Having no international calendar for 11 months and only 3 end of season games in a single international window is not enough. This will always limit the amount of games we can play and how much international RL can grow.

If what allows players to play both SOO and for their country is having no mid season games, like the NRL now keep pushing, then we are limiting the international game badly. It fades into obscurity for 11 months and I am not in favour of that at all.

2) The goal of the previous NRL administration was to have 3 of those and standalone Origin matches. If that is the way to get more internationals going then great. The international weekend at SOO time worked great previously and was growing. This approach was also said to have benefits when it comes to player welfare and not playing poorly attended NRL games during SOO. At best doing this we end up with 6 internationals a year, at worse 5 or 4 if there were just 1 game like previously. A huge improvement.

3) If we get mid season internationals at other times then again great. As I have said I think this is unlikely and I cant ever see free weekends around SOO, which seems to be a goal for the reasons above, and at other times of the year. I also dont think there is any guarantee clubs would let players do both either, say 3 SOO games as well as 3 mid season internationals and then 3 end of season internationals. Again this is pretty similar to option 2 in that we end up with 4  5 or 6 games a year.

I'm perfectly happy with option 3 or 2, I'm not particularly hung up on when mid season games are played. I just want more international games and think we need to offer way more than we currently do. Both are way better than what we have now and result in more games. I certainly don't want option 1 and what we have now, I would take anything over it if it meant more games.

[StandOffHalf]

28 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

Why don’t you lobby for more games for England against NH teams then?

France, Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

Or are they not worth playing?

 

 

 

I think one or two England Test Matches against France per year are a must. Anyone who's read my posts would have picked up on that. I would love to see a return of Other Nationalities, which I think would offer an interesting game for England.

I also think that there should be a European Cup with Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France.

I am an internationalist. They excite me more than club games, and - more importantly - have the potential to grow the sport.

Doing away with England's mid-season international window is a step that I find deeply retrograde, insular, and damaging.

[Dunbar]

13 minutes ago, Damien said:

Hasn't this all been covered? For clarity I will break this down into 3 rough paths.

1) Having no international calendar for 11 months and only 3 end of season games in a single international window is not enough. This will always limit the amount of games we can play and how much international RL can grow.

If what allows players to play both SOO and for their country is having no mid season games, like the NRL now keep pushing, then we are limiting the international game badly. It fades into obscurity for 11 months and I am not in favour of that at all.

2) The goal of the previous NRL administration was to have 3 of those and standalone Origin matches. If that is the way to get more internationals going then great. The international weekend at SOO time worked great previously and was growing. This approach was also said to have benefits when it comes to player welfare and not playing poorly attended NRL games during SOO. At best doing this we end up with 6 internationals a year, at worse 5 or 4 if there were just 1 game like previously. A huge improvement.

3) If we get mid season internationals at other times then again great. As I have said I think this is unlikely and I cant ever see free weekends around SOO, which seems to be a goal for the reasons above, and at other times of the year. I also dont think there is any guarantee clubs would let players do both either, say 3 SOO games as well as 3 mid season internationals and then 3 end of season internationals. Again this is pretty similar to option 2 in that we end up with 4  5 or 6 games a year.

I'm perfectly happy with option 3 or 2, I'm not particularly hung up on when mid season games are played. I just want more international games and think we need to offer way more than we currently do. Both are way better than what we have now and result in more games. I certainly don't want option 1 and what we have now, I would take anything over it if it meant more games.

I expect everything has been covered on here... many times over.

But thanks for your reply. 

For what it is worth, here are my thoughts on the 3 scenarios.

1. I agree that we should try and get more internationals in the calendar and, like almost everyone on here, I don't want to have to wait a year for the next installment. 

2. But I don't want State of Origin and internationals to run simultaneously.  Like it or not, the reasons why we have a strong international setup now is because a lot of Australian nationals represent the country of their heritage. And a lot qualify for both Origin and the Pacific Islands.  I want international sport to be a way of finding out which teams are the best, not which are the best from those players left over after State of Origin has picked the top players off the list.

3. This is the ideal, but accept it is a long shot at the moment.

For the reasons I have stated, if I had to choose between a mid season State of Origin and a single end of season international window or playing Origin and internationals simultaneously, I will take the former... I believe it is fairer on the players and adds integrity to the international scene.

[Dave T]

47 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

Why don’t you lobby for more games for England against NH teams then?

France, Wales, Ireland and Scotland.

Or are they not worth playing?

 

 

 

Since 2008 when England became the primary team, we've played France 16 times.

We've played Australia 11 times.

We've played the Kiwis 17 times.

In reality, Wales are a few levels below, and Scotland and Ireland are not really things. They aren't gonna be great RL events on the field or commercially. It's not to say they shouldn't be part of a worldwide calendar that may see the odd game, particularly in tournaments, but you aren't growing the game staging those fixtures.

For the same reason the Aussies aren't playing Cook Islands, and have never even played Fiji outside of a World Cup. This is a reason that World Cups are important, it was the balance for these nations to get on that world stage.

England need to be playing Top 8 teams more often.

[Dave T]

26 minutes ago, StandOffHalf said:

I think one or two England Test Matches against France per year are a must. Anyone who's read my posts would have picked up on that. I would love to see a return of Other Nationalities, which I think would offer an interesting game for England.

I also think that there should be a European Cup with Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France.

I am an internationalist. They excite me more than club games, and - more importantly - have the potential to grow the sport.

Doing away with England's mid-season international window is a step that I find deeply retrograde, insular, and damaging.

France aren't a good opponent or a good partner for a mid-season test. They struggle to get a competitive team out, have shown they stage worse events than the RFL, and it does have an unfair impact on Catalans. It's the reason the RFL have tried Roses, Exiles, playing Oz and Samoa in Sydney, the Kiwis in Denver and St Helens, as well as Tests against France.

If I understand it correctly, the season dates clearly factored in an international window, yet no game is being delivered, so the SL clubs are splitting a round over two weekends.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Dave T