244 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

How many businesses need their rivals to continue in existence.How many businesses get volunteers in the help run things? None. Pro sport in the uk certainly at SL level and below cannot be described as a business.

All businesses have rivals, the monopolies and mergers commission sees to that.

NL clubs ask for volunteers because they can't afford to pay people to do the jobs. I know businesses where relatives come in to help the boss for no money - so what?

Of course semi pro clubs are businesses - they have accounts, balance sheets, money in money out, pay wages and are limited liability and registered at company house. You make it all up......

[The Parksider]

I think some contributors are living in a world that no longer exists, loyalty to a town or suburb in a society with as much population flux as the UK in 2010 is waning. Where I work, 10 miles outside Carlisle, there are 200-300 staff, less than half of which were born within 50 miles of the workplace. Many of the people who have moved into the area support the local football side and travelled to Wembley with them, they also retain support for their 'home town' club, but consider it impractical and take their kids to watch a reasonably competitive local side instead. These are the people that would be targeted by 'new' clubs.

We can spend the next 10 years worrying about what 'diehard' supporters of Dewsbury & Batley would do if the clubs merged, only to find that the diehards have moved away to improve employment prospects and newcomers have no interest in watching poorly supported clubs at a low level of competition.

The next generation of RL fans in West Cumbria, the ones that would be essential to make any top level club a success, are currently wearing Liverpool, Chelsea & Man U shirts. They may be 10 generations Marra, they may be the sons/daughters of people that moved into the area to work at Sellafield. They are less bothered by a rivalry that means less with every passing year as people move, marry folk from the next door town, go to school there, go shopping there and travel with people from that town to watch other sports.

We have to start planning for 2020 not pretending it is still 1980.

That's a very good post, and reflects the reality of the situation.

Here In Leeds people have stopped watching Hunslet and Bramley, most watch Leeds, many out of town travel a distance to watch Leeds, and some Leeds people choose to go to Cas or Bradford.

People travel, move and make choices because they can.

Years ago travel was slow and expensive...times change.

People are more enlightened - they see pro sport for what it is - as an entertainment not a tribal way of life.

I have always spoken to people about why they support particular clubs, I know a couple of people who supported sheffield Wednesday but now go to United.

[Keith T]

Well perhaps you can explain it to the residents of Workington and Whitehaven and persuade them to pay out their money to watch a merged team.
When you've done that you can have a go at Hull & Hull Kr, and Cas and Fev. If you succeed, I recommend that you offer your services to the Palestians and Israelis.

Trojan, I live here in west Cumbria and have been a Town supporter for 63 years. Believe me I almost know every supporter that still follows Town - all 450 of us, and out of that number I would hazard a guess that only 50 wouldn't even consider following a new club. The others would all discuss it and if it happened they would support the new venture.

Young people up here who live in Workington call people from Whitehaven "jameaters" and vice versa and none of them know why? There are several stories of colliers from each town working with colliers from the other town and what was in the sandwiches, etc, but it changes depending on which town you happen to be in.

It is the people that have walked away from both clubs that would be the biggest supporters of a new venture as the area is crying out for success of some sort. Don't forget our nearest SL club is Wigan a round trip of 250 miles and the nearest Football League club is Carlisle United a round trip of 70 - 80 miles. People are giving their opinions on both clubs with their feet because both clubs sadly still listen to the "jameaters" of both clubs.

[Sleeper]

I'm choosing to ignore your patronising negative attitude and address your post without resorting in kind.

The trouble with this argument is, rugby league isn't strictly a business. People who say it is are missing a whole lot about it. If clubs were strictly a business, no one in their right mind would watch a losing team. If Coca Cola starts to taste awful and gives people illness the customers wont still buy it out of loyalty, they will switch to pepsi. Yet I've seen fans go to watch a Halifax team in super league that didn't have a hope of winning a game all season. You can't treat the fans as customers, they are different. There is an emotional attachment and a sense of community spirit you don't get from true businesses. Sure, they run accounts, and have overheads, but the customers in this case are not the type who will simply wander from product to product when it suits them. Their loyalty is a strength and a weakness. It means you can't simply bank on them going elsewhere if you mess them around and merge and subdue their club. It's more than just a brand to them. But it also means some of them will carry on supporting through thick and thin no matter what is going on with the business side.

Merge Wakey and Cas and a number will refuse to go because it wont be the same and the new entity will represent something else they are not accustomed to or emotionally attached to. You have to accept that no matter what you think of these people. You have to hope that in the long term, you can gain lost ground and overtake that considerably otherwise you are sacrificing two working clubs just to risk one which may work slightly better.

Your last paragraph is of supreme irrelevance to this argument so I wont bother replying to it because you shouldn't have bothered posting it.

Hang on, I'm pro merger, willing to embrace another route and I recognise pro RL is a business but you think I'm negative .................... the mind boggles!

And, if my last paragraph is of supreme irrelevance why make mention of it. Look feller, I'll nick a quote off JFK; "change is the law of life, those who fail to change will miss the future" .................. I guess you are stuck where you are, oh BTW, love your "it wont be the same", it says a lot!

Edited by Sleeper, 22 July 2010 - 06:30 PM.

[Trojan]

That's a very good post, and reflects the reality of the situation.

Here In Leeds people have stopped watching Hunslet and Bramley, most watch Leeds, many out of town travel a distance to watch Leeds, and some Leeds people choose to go to Cas or Bradford.

No it's not Parky it's wrong. As for Leeds, Bramley and Hunslet. For the most part it's not the same people who've stopped watching Hunslet/Bramley and started watching Leeds. It's a different generation. Bramley have never been particularly well supported, but Hunslet's diseappearance in the early seventies, plus the fact that Hunslet as a place where people live has effectively disappeared has contributed to their decline. The new young potential supporters of RL look around for team to support and what do they see. Bright shiney SL Leeds, playing at Headingley, on TV every week seemingly, and struggling Hunslet. It's not really surprising if they choose Leeds is it? What clubs like Hunslet need is a bit of help to raise their profile. But what do they get instead - franchising - calculated to keep them out of the limelight and perpetuate the vicious circle of decline.

[nec]

No it's not Parky it's wrong. As for Leeds, Bramley and Hunslet. For the most part it's not the same people who've stopped watching Hunslet/Bramley and started watching Leeds. It's a different generation. Bramley have never been particularly well supported, but Hunslet's diseappearance in the early seventies, plus the fact that Hunslet as a place where people live has effectively disappeared has contributed to their decline. The new young potential supporters of RL look around for team to support and what do they see. Bright shiney SL Leeds, playing at Headingley, on TV every week seemingly, and struggling Hunslet. It's not really surprising if they choose Leeds is it? What clubs like Hunslet need is a bit of help to raise their profile. But what do they get instead - franchising - calculated to keep them out of the limelight and perpetuate the vicious circle of decline.

Several things; which bit of what I wrote about changing communities was in your opinion incorrect?

What could the rfl have done, before licensing, to help hunslet? Given they had already been to the brink of promotion before realising that Leeds council would not build them a White elephant.

[Trojan]

Several things; which bit of what I wrote about changing communities was in your opinion incorrect?

It's not my experience of the way things are in West Yorkshire. Rivalry here, and in Hull and Wigan and St Helens (not large towns) is very real.

[The Parksider]

No it's not Parky it's wrong. As for Leeds, Bramley and Hunslet. For the most part it's not the same people who've stopped watching Hunslet/Bramley and started watching Leeds. It's a different generation.

You are a daft devil, trying to tell me about the people who watch Bramley and Hunslet and Leeds.

The fact is I have been one of them, have been amongst them for 40 years, and have known so many of them over the years.

Stop making it up.

[nec]

It's not my experience of the way things are in West Yorkshire. Rivalry here, and in Hull and Wigan and St Helens (not large towns) is very real.

Don't disagree for the small number of clubs that have built brands and rivalries like saints Wigan fc kr wire, but there are a fair number of fc fans in east hull & vice versa. There are saints fans in Wigan and Warrington. There are also a number of fans at these clubs that are first generation supporters. These are the people I mean, they ( like my mate euan who I took to a few saints games and became more passionate than
most sintelliner residents despite no link to the town).

[The Parksider]

Don't disagree for the small number of clubs that have built brands and rivalries........ These are the people I mean......my mate euan who I took to a few saints games and became more passionate than most sintelliner residents despite no link to the town.......

People are simply seeking entertainment in sport and there is little loyalty unless it suits people to pretend there is.

Like your Mate who went to Saints and fancied being an avid Saints fan despite never having been near the town, and like Trojan who fell out with Wakey and now is an avid Fev fan because he felt like it.............

[Trojan]

You are a daft devil, trying to tell me about the people who watch Bramley and Hunslet and Leeds.

The fact is I have been one of them, have been amongst them for 40 years, and have known so many of them over the years.

Stop making it up.

It's never the same people Parky. I've been watching Fev for thirty years (I supported Wakey - well Neil Fox) for twenty before that. But I'm 63 and sometime in the next few years I'll probably be too old to keep going. It'll be nearly forty years since Parkside closed. How many of those who attended regularly are still alive today, or able to attend a football match? Crowds are dynamic. If Fev had won in 1998, instead of Wakey, I've no doubt that they'd have at least similar sized crowds to those Wakey have today. Because it's 12 years since, there are probably kids from Sharlston, Crofton, Ackworth, who had Fev been in SL would have supported Fev - instead they go to Belle Vue to watch SL and who can blame them? There are people who were at Huddersfield that night supporting Fev who have either died or become too infirm to turn out any more. Crowds are dynamic. It's never the same people - week by week even.

[nec]

It's never the same people Parky. I've been watching Fev for thirty years (I supported Wakey - well Neil Fox) for twenty before that. But I'm 63 and sometime in the next few years I'll probably be too old to keep going. It'll be nearly forty years since Parkside closed. How many of those who attended regularly are still alive today, or able to attend a football match? Crowds are dynamic. If Fev had won in 1998, instead of Wakey, I've no doubt that they'd have at least similar sized crowds to those Wakey have today. Because it's 12 years since, there are probably kids from Sharlston, Crofton, Ackworth, who had Fev been in SL would have supported Fev - instead they go to Belle Vue to watch SL and who can blame them? There are people who were at Huddersfield that night supporting Fev who have either died or become too infirm to turn out any more. Crowds are dynamic. It's never the same people - week by week even.

Is it only me that thinks your argument and parky's are starting to converge?

[Johnoco]

Is it only me that thinks your argument and parky's are starting to converge?

No, I was struck by the thought too.

[Trojan]

Don't disagree for the small number of clubs that have built brands and rivalries like saints Wigan fc kr wire, but there are a fair number of fc fans in east hull & vice versa. There are saints fans in Wigan and Warrington. There are also a number of fans at these clubs that are first generation supporters. These are the people I mean, they ( like my mate euan who I took to a few saints games and became more passionate than
most sintelliner residents despite no link to the town).

There are Saints fans in Wigan, (I know one) no doubt there are Wigan fans in St Helens - there are Wigan fans everywhere for God's sake -even in Cas. Wigan are RL's major brand, (a bit like Man U) Max Boyce's song about the Pontypool Front Row doesn't mention Widnes Saints Bradford, Hull or Leeds, it mentions Wigan.
But for the most part in RL fans are parochial. Fev and Cas are only three miles apart, you could see Mount Pleasant from the old Crown Flatt. It doesn't make sense. But for those who support the sides it does. When I worked in Cas I used to buy my morning paper from a papershop next to the Fourways pub. He was a nice bloke, we always had a bit of chat about the Rugby at the weekend on Mondays and Fridays. But one night I went to Wheldon Road for a Cas/Fev game and happened to see him - his hatred of Fev for that ninety minutes for incandescent. That's one of the reasons people keep going.

[Trojan]

Is it only me that thinks your argument and parky's are starting to converge?

If they are I'll have to think up a new argument
I still need to get him back re Beeston v Hunslet Fire Station

[Vengeance]

Feelings run too high in most cases to permit a merger. Fans just wouldnt swallow it. Realistically, mergers would only happen where two clubs were literally on their knees, getting pitiful attendances in the hundreds and probably on the verge of liquidation. Both would also have to bring something to the party. Suggestions like KR + FC, Widnes +Wire etc are just pipe dreams as the clubs involved are just too big, and the fans too numerous and hostile to each other.

[nec]

If they are I'll have to think up a new argument
I still need to get him back re Beeston v Hunslet Fire Station

Truth is, I think the argument for West Cumbria is completely different than for 'Rhubarb Rangers'. If there is not a merger and the clubs have to endure a sustained period outside the top tier that leaves Marras with a 200 mile round trip whereas the same situation in Wakefield MBC would have little effect. All 3 clubs could retain their identities and play in the Championship and have fierce rivalries for their existing fans. New fans may well decide to go and watch one of the SL clubs in the surrounding towns & cities but the diehards can stay supporting their own clubs.

[sam]

Widnes +Wire etc are just pipe dreams as the clubs involved are just too big, and the fans too numerous and hostile to each other.

they're not too big at all! i'd happily groundshare with widnes.

[The Parksider]

Crowds are dynamic. If Fev had won in 1998, instead of Wakey, I've no doubt that they'd have at least similar sized crowds to those Wakey have today. Because it's 12 years since, there are probably kids from Sharlston, Crofton, Ackworth, who had Fev been in SL would have supported Fev - instead they go to Belle Vue to watch SL and who can blame them?

You've seen the light then? In the NL's supporters do not walk away from the game they go watch Superleague instead.

Finally we have the tacit admission. Superleague does not lose the game fans, it gains the games fans..........

Alleluyah, Hosana etc etc ......

I hope Wakefield get their ground and Neil Fox leads the team out and kicks off the first match, and you hold the kicking tee for him.......

[Trojan]

You've seen the light then? In the NL's supporters do not walk away from the game they go watch Superleague instead.

No you've misunderstood me. Supporters do not walk away from clubs, they either grow too old to attend or they die - or both. The new supporters who should be replacing them gravitate to the SL clubs. There's no gain for the game overall, just a redistribution. Fev's crowds were larger than Wakey's in the last seaon Wakey were in the same division as Fev. Since then Fev's crowds have declined and Wakey's have improved. A redistribution Parky. Who knows, perhaps if Fev had won that night in Huddersfield, with a ground at least twice as good as Belle Vue they could have attracted even larger crowds to SL.
The same goes for 'Fax now especially now they've got the Shay sorted. Pehaps the missing thousands from Odsal will start supporting their hometown club.