Wolfpack's success may bring another Canadian squad to English league

[ojx]

4 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

With Canada legalising drugs and selling them on the high street as from next July the visa issues could get worse, partcularly if a US team were to enter the league. 

 

Just wondering about criteria for entering the league and a ground appropriate for Superleague.. Isnt there some expectation of covered accommodation ad if so how does TWP get away with that concrete monster being open to the elements completely.

Haha Criteria for SL, like Belle Vue? Salford's academy team? Attendances under 5000? It seems 17 warm bodies is the only current criteria.

[Omott91]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/15/second-canadian-team-rugby-league-eric-perez-toronto-wolfpack

Interesting points. Mentions Hamilton as likely location. To the Canadian members here who know the Canadian sports landscape, would this be a good choice over say, Montréal?

[John WP Fan]

10 hours ago, Omott91 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/15/second-canadian-team-rugby-league-eric-perez-toronto-wolfpack

Interesting points. Mentions Hamilton as likely location. To the Canadian members here who know the Canadian sports landscape, would this be a good choice over say, Montréal?

Nope. Not in my opinion. Hamilton is much too close to Toronto (about a 50-minute drive from downtown), and would cannibalize too much of the Wolfpack support. Maybe in 20 years if the Wolfpack are consistently selling out a 30,000 seat stadium and there is so much demand for tickets that a second team in the area might make sense. Montreal is a much better option, and a far better place for visiting players and fans to enjoy a trip to.

 

[johnny plath]

On 16/09/2017 at 6:23 PM, Gerrumonside ref said:

I think much depends on whether an international Super League can be the main advert for the sport that makes people want to check out their local team (and not necessarily their nearest Super League team).

I guess the real trick is going to be how you get whole areas that produce players to carry on producing players if their local club don't make the cut for the 2019 Super League.

My hunch is we have to hope that the Championship is made into the most attractive competition it can be.

 

 

This is obviously an emotive topic for a lot of posters on here, but the point about making the championship an attractive destination in its own right surely has some merit.  Using the Australian experience as a comparison, the Qld Intrust Cup is a model that seems to be a good comparison. Evolving from the old Brisbane Rugby league competition, just one year younger than the old Sydney RL, and sitting a level below the NRL, its a fantastic competition that continues to be a gateway for players into the NRL.  The standard is high, the top clubs would hold their own in the bottom half of super league if not higher.  Teams are a mix of amateur, semi pro players, and full time pro players contracted to affiliate NRL clubs.    Promotion is not an option, there is no P+R into the NRL,  as its not culturally an Australian sport thing.  While some clubs may (or not)aspire to be in the NRL, they take pride in their professionalism and place within the community.   Some but not all are powerhouses that could arguably survive in the NRL, while others are centres of their community - but all are well run professional organisations.  All of the Qld Cup teams have their own development pathways programs, and from next season will have teams in a full season long State wide u20s and u18s elite competition.  They accept that not everyone can be in the top tier, but that takes nothing away from their commitment, professionalism and pride in their clubs. The NRL has always been a closed shop, with new openings at the whim of its Board. But despite its detractors, it is the flagship for the game in the Southern Hemisphere, as Super League needs to be in the Northern Hemisphere.  Surely the more stable and powerful those entities are, the better the chances of the game below growing into new markets and flourishing, making a more globally recognised game, and feeding back to help sustain the community game?   The prospect of a North Atlantic league featuring best of the UK, NA, and France must surely have so much more potential for money and growth than remaining stagnant as a UK comp, low in the pecking order of the British sporting landscape.  An elite top tier club level comp that everything feeds into should be seen as the goal, and a way forward for community clubs to remain viable and relevant into the future.  Convincing clubs this is the way to go is the tricky part.

[Oxford]

On 9/15/2017 at 3:07 PM, Bob8 said:

This is where I get nervous.

A few months to get a team ready for taking part in a trans-Atlantic league does not seem long (even if they have been in the works for a while). 

Yes, but of all the silly stereotypes that run around human life one that seems to true is that what makes the British nervous is meat and gravy for North Americans.

You only have to look across posts on this forum and the number of reasons for not doing something far outweigh those for taking the risk and going for it!

[Bob8]

45 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Yes, but of all the silly stereotypes that run around human life one that seems to true is that what makes the British nervous is meat and gravy for North Americans.

You only have to look across posts on this forum and the number of reasons for not doing something far outweigh those for taking the risk and going for it!

Surely you are not suggesting that I am anti-TWP or against more NA clubs?  That would be up there with you calling me a rugby union troll!

Catalans took an extra year, it worked out well. 

Acknowledging the size of the task is not the same as suggesting it should not be done.

[Oxford]

3 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Surely you are not suggesting that I am anti-TWP or against more NA clubs?  That would be up there with you calling me a rugby union troll!

Catalans took an extra year, it worked out well. 

Acknowledging the size of the task is not the same as suggesting it should not be done.

Morning Bob .....er I don't think I suggested any of those things.

"Acknowledging the size of the task is not the same as suggesting it should not be done." Welllllll,  no it's not the same but the point was about the can do attitude of North Americans as opposed to that looks quite hard, what do you think, well I don't really know, maybe later of the Brits! And for empharsis no singling out Bob8 or Bob9 come to that!

[Bob8]

2 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Morning Bob .....er I don't think I suggested any of those things.

"Acknowledging the size of the task is not the same as suggesting it should not be done." Welllllll,  no it's not the same but the point was about the can do attitude of North Americans as opposed to that looks quite hard, what do you think, well I don't really know, maybe later of the Brits! And for empharsis no singling out Bob8 or Bob9 come to that!

I have lived and worked all over the US for a good few years.  In Europe, I tend to try and gee people up, in the USA I tend to calm them down and tell them not to take it personally.  There is a difference.

Indulge me a moment, when there is a huge task ahead, some of a group will umm and ahh and consider the size of the tak.  Others say Let's Go!

It is the first group who will be there on time to tackle it. 

I am in Switzerland at the moment, I imagine I will be trying to take of difficult RL tasks again soon.  That does not mean they are not difficult. 

What we see on this forum is not the lack of "can do" attitude, few if any of us will actually contribute.  It is a "do not want them to do", because it will interfere with what people hold most dear in rugby league and some would rather the game died that risk what the game means to them.

[The Parksider]

2 hours ago, johnny plath said:

1. This is obviously an emotive topic for a lot of posters on here, but the point about making the championship an attractive destination in its own right surely has some merit.  Using the Australian experience as a comparison..................

2. They accept that not everyone can be in the top tier, but that takes nothing away from their commitment, professionalism and pride in their clubs. The NRL has always been a closed shop, with new openings at the whim of its Board. But despite its detractors, it is the flagship for the game in the Southern Hemisphere, as Super League needs to be in the Northern Hemisphere. 

3, Surely the more stable and powerful those entities are, the better the chances of the game below growing into new markets and flourishing, making a more globally recognised game, and feeding back to help sustain the community game?   The prospect of a North Atlantic league featuring best of the UK, NA, and France must surely have so much more potential for money and growth than remaining stagnant as a UK comp, low in the pecking order of the British sporting landscape.  

1. Comparisons with Australia can't be drawn when the sporting landscapes are vastly different. In Australia the NRL is a major sport with high participation numbers. In the UK it is a small regional sport with small decreasing participation numbers, in France it is a smaller regional sport with even lower participation numbers and in Canada it is one manufactured club with no real participation in the sport. In all three countries Rugby League is literally swamped by other stronger sports

2.  Yes I agree that NRL has it's detractors but stands as a flagship for the southern hemisphere game, attracting the biggest money and the best players. You appear to not understand that Superleague is exactly the same in the Northern Hempisphere. It attracts the biggest TV contract going and attracts the best players - augmented by about 70 Aussies which shows you the lack of playing resources, however to manage a flagship of 12 clubs is pretty good when the NRL can manage only 16 with much bigger playing resources and a much bigger sporting profile there.

3. You talk about the NRL being a strong and stable entity that enables growth, yet what is the record of the NRL on growth??  It has moved into Queensland and manages a club in NZ. Conversely Superleague moved into London, France and Wales so this has happened, but these ventures either folded or in the case of Catalans they limp along using mainly overseas players.

The bottom line is that the 12 clubs we have have managed to keep the RL flag flying against tremendous opposition the level of which NRL doesn't face. You say "The prospect of a North Atlantic league featuring best of the UK, NA, and France must surely have so much more potential". 

Given that Catalans in ten years have struggled to increase participation in France if it has increased at all (much like NZ Warriors?), and given that there is next to no participation in North America, where the only way to get a team is to raid the English game for their players, where does this potential for growth in the participation numbers come from?

Dreaming of what could be if only we were brave enough is OK, but in the real world where simply surviving is the key, Northern Hemisphere RL IS two parts of Yorkshire and one part of Lancashire, and you can't spread that on a  "Transatlantic" basis any more than the NRL can be "Pan Pacific".

[jpmc]

5 hours ago, johnny plath said:

This is obviously an emotive topic for a lot of posters on here, but the point about making the championship an attractive destination in its own right surely has some merit.  Using the Australian experience as a comparison, the Qld Intrust Cup is a model that seems to be a good comparison. Evolving from the old Brisbane Rugby league competition, just one year younger than the old Sydney RL, and sitting a level below the NRL, its a fantastic competition that continues to be a gateway for players into the NRL.  The standard is high, the top clubs would hold their own in the bottom half of super league if not higher.  Teams are a mix of amateur, semi pro players, and full time pro players contracted to affiliate NRL clubs.    Promotion is not an option, there is no P+R into the NRL,  as its not culturally an Australian sport thing.  While some clubs may (or not)aspire to be in the NRL, they take pride in their professionalism and place within the community.   Some but not all are powerhouses that could arguably survive in the NRL, while others are centres of their community - but all are well run professional organisations.  All of the Qld Cup teams have their own development pathways programs, and from next season will have teams in a full season long State wide u20s and u18s elite competition.  They accept that not everyone can be in the top tier, but that takes nothing away from their commitment, professionalism and pride in their clubs. The NRL has always been a closed shop, with new openings at the whim of its Board. But despite its detractors, it is the flagship for the game in the Southern Hemisphere, as Super League needs to be in the Northern Hemisphere.  Surely the more stable and powerful those entities are, the better the chances of the game below growing into new markets and flourishing, making a more globally recognised game, and feeding back to help sustain the community game?   The prospect of a North Atlantic league featuring best of the UK, NA, and France must surely have so much more potential for money and growth than remaining stagnant as a UK comp, low in the pecking order of the British sporting landscape.  An elite top tier club level comp that everything feeds into should be seen as the goal, and a way forward for community clubs to remain viable and relevant into the future.  Convincing clubs this is the way to go is the tricky part.

Quite comfortable saying SLE/ Rfl will not be the engine for driving rugby league in the northern hemisphere 

[Bob8]

8 minutes ago, jpmc said:

Quite comfortable saying SLE/ Rfl will not be the engine for driving rugby league in the northern hemisphere 

It is nice that you are comfortable..

What will be the engine for driving rugby league in the northern hemisphere?

[Frog]

12 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It is nice that you are comfortable..

What will be the engine for driving rugby league in the northern hemisphere?

A strong London team.

[Bob8]

Just now, Frog said:

A strong London team.

Really.

How? 

How will that happen?

How would it drive the game forward?

Or have you just said something that we do not have?  Will London drive interest in the USA, France and Canada?

[Frog]

How it will happen. I don't know.But it needs to happen. Along with France and Wales it's the only real choice. 

[Bob8]

11 minutes ago, Frog said:

How it will happen. I don't know.But it needs to happen. Along with France and Wales it's the only real choice. 

So you have no how or why?

Just an mindless assertion?  Come on!  Explain!

[jpmc]

46 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

It is nice that you are comfortable..

What will be the engine for driving rugby league in the northern hemisphere?

The continued growth or rl in north America as we move towards the world cup over there

 

[Bob8]

Just now, jpmc said:

The continued growth or rl in north America as we move towards the world cup over there

 

And that will not invovle Super League?

[Bob8]

6 hours ago, johnny plath said:

This is obviously an emotive topic for a lot of posters on here, but the point about making the championship an attractive destination in its own right surely has some merit.  Using the Australian experience as a comparison, the Qld Intrust Cup is a model that seems to be a good comparison. Evolving from the old Brisbane Rugby league competition, just one year younger than the old Sydney RL, and sitting a level below the NRL, its a fantastic competition that continues to be a gateway for players into the NRL.  The standard is high, the top clubs would hold their own in the bottom half of super league if not higher.  Teams are a mix of amateur, semi pro players, and full time pro players contracted to affiliate NRL clubs.    Promotion is not an option, there is no P+R into the NRL,  as its not culturally an Australian sport thing.  While some clubs may (or not)aspire to be in the NRL, they take pride in their professionalism and place within the community.   Some but not all are powerhouses that could arguably survive in the NRL, while others are centres of their community - but all are well run professional organisations.  All of the Qld Cup teams have their own development pathways programs, and from next season will have teams in a full season long State wide u20s and u18s elite competition.  They accept that not everyone can be in the top tier, but that takes nothing away from their commitment, professionalism and pride in their clubs. The NRL has always been a closed shop, with new openings at the whim of its Board. But despite its detractors, it is the flagship for the game in the Southern Hemisphere, as Super League needs to be in the Northern Hemisphere.  Surely the more stable and powerful those entities are, the better the chances of the game below growing into new markets and flourishing, making a more globally recognised game, and feeding back to help sustain the community game?   The prospect of a North Atlantic league featuring best of the UK, NA, and France must surely have so much more potential for money and growth than remaining stagnant as a UK comp, low in the pecking order of the British sporting landscape.  An elite top tier club level comp that everything feeds into should be seen as the goal, and a way forward for community clubs to remain viable and relevant into the future.  Convincing clubs this is the way to go is the tricky part.

You make many excellent points.

I think you rather downplay how hard this would be to accept.  It is not a nice business at all.   Clubs are used to doing business in a specific way.  The RFL's rejection of Manchester Rangers demonstrates that even they do not see that there can be another way, so it is utterly reasonable for fans to be skeptical to say the least. 

And as many fans attachment to the sport is through their clubs, they would rather the sport died than accept this.

[jpmc]

SLE/RFL will have as much ssy as the NRL/ARL

Edit- Tbh if the game takes off in north america there wont be a SL everything In England will be under the RFL again 

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, Bob8 said:

And that will not invovle Super League?

Chances are that it could involve a genuine Super League rather than the so-called one presently existing.  It could be that in time a completely new league will be formed with (for example) six franchises here in America forming an American Division and six in Europe forming a European Division in a genuinely Super League delivering the equivalent of the Champions League, UEFA League and Copa Libertadores de América every week. They could take London, Toulouse and Catalans (the latter based in Barcelona as no one over here's ever heard of Perpignan) off your hands and place franchises in Manchester, Coventry and (for example) either Sheffield or Newcastle depending on which stadium manager wants his venue to be part of it more.

[ojx]

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

And that will not invovle Super League?

I really appreciate the RFL giving Canadian teams the chance to play in the English league and showcase the sport to a new audience here. This is just the boost that is needed for creating the opportunity for the growth of the game. 

I've heard Coach Nobby and the Perez mention, on several occasions, that their ambition is to set up a North American competition. This should be more of the goal than getting the TWP into Super League. I agree that six teams is the minimum needed (that is how the NHL started), perhaps with a centralised financial model such as the MLS where most players are contracted to the league.

[Big Picture]

34 minutes ago, ojx said:

I really appreciate the RFL giving Canadian teams the chance to play in the English league and showcase the sport to a new audience here. This is just the boost that is needed for creating the opportunity for the growth of the game. 

I've heard Coach Nobby and the Perez mention, on several occasions, that their ambition is to set up a North American competition. This should be more of the goal than getting the TWP into Super League. I agree that six teams is the minimum needed (that is how the NHL started), perhaps with a centralised financial model such as the MLS where most players are contracted to the league.

You're slightly off there.  When the NHL started in 1917 it had four Original clubs, not six.

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, Big Picture said:

Chances are that it could involve a genuine Super League rather than the so-called one presently existing.  It could be that in time a completely new league will be formed with (for example) six franchises here in America forming an American Division and six in Europe forming a European Division in a genuinely Super League delivering the equivalent of the Champions League, UEFA League and Copa Libertadores de América every week. They could take London, Toulouse and Catalans (the latter based in Barcelona as no one over here's ever heard of Perpignan) off your hands and place franchises in Manchester, Coventry and (for example) either Sheffield or Newcastle depending on which stadium manager wants his venue to be part of it more.

31 minutes ago, ojx said:

I really appreciate the RFL giving Canadian teams the chance to play in the English league and showcase the sport to a new audience here. This is just the boost that is needed for creating the opportunity for the growth of the game. 

I've heard Coach Nobby and the Perez mention, on several occasions, that their ambition is to set up a North American competition. This should be more of the goal than getting the TWP into Super League. I agree that six teams is the minimum needed (that is how the NHL started), perhaps with a centralised financial model such as the MLS where most players are contracted to the league.

Yes.

But that is a while out.

French rugby league had no luck growing their league,  they put a team in Super League and it largely propered.

American football tried to launch a league in Europe.  It failed.  They are now looking at entering a London team into the NFL. 

Rugby union tried to launch a full-time league in the USA.  It failed.  Now they are looking at entering a US team in the Pro-14.

Clearly, the teams need to be brought into an established league first.

That established league has to be the NRL or Super League and it is not looking like it is going to be the NRL.

Clearly, if there were to be half a dozen North American teams, that would be the way to go.

[Oxford]

10 hours ago, Bob8 said:

It is a "do not want them to do", because it will interfere with what people hold most dear in rugby league and some would rather the game died that risk what the game means to them.

That's about as accurate as it gets Bob ..... and it's always sad when we are willing to see the things we love go west because it upsets our apple cart - Good mixed metaphor there!

[Lewis]

http://www.rugbyleaguehub.com/2017/09/18/toronto-wolfpack-founder-eric-pirez-spills-the-beans/

"Its' kind of my destiny to run it. I believe in it so much I've made it the force that runs my life. My life force is growing Rugby League in North America"  

God Bless Eric Perez.