WC influence - NRL Pacific Test now includes Lebanon

[winnyason]

12 hours ago, londonrlfan said:

Nothing will come off of Tonga because the foundations are built on sand, just like with Samoa after Four Nations. You can't build a sport on the back of hoping players will switch countries. These players Tonga "produce" are born and bred in Aus/NZ and are products of their RL, not Tonga's. Only Hurrell is born and bred in Tonga and he played union only until he came to NZ. Tonga and Samoa don't add anything to the player pool. There seems to be a double standard in that it's ok for Tonga and Samoa, but not Lebanon, Italy, Ireland or Scotland. 

Tonga population is around 1 million in expats in oz and New Zealand. 

[B rad]

4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

Well then RL needs a way to make sticking with RL more financially rewarding for those French players who come through  than switching to RU, doesn't it.  The tarted-up version of the old RFL Championship which pretends to be a Super League clearly isn't fit for that purpose because it can't generate the necessary money, so consequently the game needs the likes of David Argyle, Eric Pérez and the New York group to get one with setting up a transatlantic genuine Super League to bring the needed money into the game.

And I'm all for that. I'm pro development in those nations. I'm super keen to see Toronto push into super league and hope the New York franchise is successful. I just don't think you should neglect the nations that are competitive on the field.

4 hours ago, Big Picture said:

That is a mark of the game's stunted international growth since it began.  If instead of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji we had Cyprus, Malta and Iceland — which are all similar in population to the other three but slightly bigger — do you think that would impress outsiders?  You, I and everyone else here knows that the answer is no, outsiders would consider that a joke.  How then can three other tiny island countries add much to the game's international presence, profile and income?

So people from Cyprus Malta and Iceland make up how much of a percentage of the Super League? Because Pacific Islanders make up 43% I think it was of the NRL player pool. You think neglecting almost half of our player pool is a good thing and just stack them into Australia and New Zealand. Are those nations not strong enough for you already, when was the last time England beat Australia? You want David Fifita's making the strongest team even stronger rather propping up someone else? 

For competitions to be successful they need to have competitive teams. That's why we have salary caps in club comps. We are taking steps in the right direction with the Pacific Nations in creating more competitive teams there for making a better more interesting international competition.

We share different opinions on what is good for the game and isn't, neither of us are going to change our mind so good luck to ya. For the record I hope either England or Tonga win the world cup. I doubt either will because Australia is just too strong. The international game is like the English club comps a few years back when Wigan won everything. There needs to be more stronger opponents in my opinion. It doesn't matter if they come from little islands or Malta or where ever. That's how I feel, I've felt that way for 25 years and your not going to change my mind. 

[winnyason]

14 hours ago, londonrlfan said:

Nothing will come off of Tonga because the foundations are built on sand, just like with Samoa after Four Nations. You can't build a sport on the back of hoping players will switch countries. These players Tonga "produce" are born and bred in Aus/NZ and are products of their RL, not Tonga's. Only Hurrell is born and bred in Tonga and he played union only until he came to NZ. Tonga and Samoa don't add anything to the player pool. There seems to be a double standard in that it's ok for Tonga and Samoa, but not Lebanon, Italy, Ireland or Scotland. 

The not one solution nor answer mate, I think to make event competitive until nations can filter players into pro leagues or develop there own to good standard this is rlif answer. Code now has 56 nations playing at some form to professional to school activity. 

don’t want to note every nations keys to improving but I do the World Cup sides, I believe the biggest issue we have is how overly dominate Australia become again yes there got all time greats in smith, slater, Cronk, Thurston but it’s not a good look. 

* england - need an academy to develop halfbacks this is biggest weak area. More games v Australia and nz. Annual France match. 

* New Zealand - there coach has question marks, they continue to unearth stars. The underperforming of warriors is a concern, no way ready for 2nd nrl side. Tonga and Samoa will continue to take some of there players. Possible financial advantage on regular tonga match in nz. Cutting of under 20s may see players lost to union. 

*png - hunters ground work starting to give rewards. Good national stadium. Will start to see flow to superleague and nrl deals for locals I believe. National comp very well supported.

Fiji - local comp continues to grow and juniors taking up game. Professional players seem to be only outside backs. In long term like to see series v png. 

Tonga - have makings of top tier nation however need regular calendar for tests, very small nation. But a lot of expats in nz and Australia. Local comp is strong has 20 clubs. 

Samoa - not doing a lot of development back home, last I heard only had a 8 team league. Has good side on paper performed ###### all this year, losing all games and draw one. Seems annual Samoa v tonga penciled in. 

Usa - took punt on homegrown national team not great results. New York pro side in 2019 for English system. World Cup 2025. A lot happening to try to get sport to take off there. Local league has 10 clubs at present. Questionable if this happens. 

Scotland - not a good tournament but showed heart in last game. Need to get grassroots happening again given local comp nearly disappeared not sure junior situation. 

Ireland - very good showing I just say they played like quarter finalist. Game is getting some decent media coverage back home. The pipe dream is getting a side in uk system would require a backer. Local comp has good numbers but is mainly rugby union players getting fit in off season. Need to schedule matches v scots, Ireland, Wales, France. 

Wales - a lot of grass roots development happening strong juniors showing in wales junior win v English. 2 sides in pro system in league 1. Need everyone available for national side to be competitive. Juniors are getting superleague opps. Regular test v Celtic nations and french/Italy/lebanon.

France - considering who was out done okay at World Cup. Moving forward given small pool of pro players they need key players in every test. Pro clubs in Catalans and Toulouse plus dozen in so on deals in uk so building numbers. Very strong at national junior level. I say need to get in weigh room more. Need schedule annual england match and also Celtic nations. The super xii is there big hope not sure it will happen given lack of funds in sport. 

Italy - sort out bloody infighting - rlef body has 12 clubs the Italia rfl has 10. There 22 v clubs. Need more home internationals raise awareness of code. Tests v Lebanon/France/Celtic nations. Long term get players into french elite clubs. 

Lebanon - good performance at Cup. Sports developing back with 7 team local league/university system/school. More games is the key need to get either a France or Italy at home. National side reliant on heritage players. 

 

 

[Farmduck]

3 hours ago, winnyason said:

Tonga population is around 1 million in expats in oz and New Zealand. 

More like 100,000 including expats and heritage in OZ & NZ.  There's no guarantee these people identify as Tongan though. Michael Morgan played for Ireland in this WC. DWZ played for NZ and Tyson Frizell played for OZ.

[winnyason]

6 minutes ago, Farmduck said:

More like 100,000 including expats and heritage in OZ & NZ.  There's no guarantee these people identify as Tongan though. Michael Morgan played for Ireland in this WC. DWZ played for NZ and Tyson Frizell played for OZ.

So what you think tonga faker than say lebanon ? 

[Farmduck]

5 minutes ago, winnyason said:

So what you think tonga faker than say lebanon ? 

I think we need to be realistic about the future RL strength of a country with 100K people and no money. Even if we throw in the expats, there are still only 200K Tongans, smaller than Wakefield.

I have avoided all this talk about "growth" and "expansion" because I think most of it is built on fantasy. We have more people here in Blacktown that Tonga and Samoa combined - in fact, more of the Tongan players were born in Blacktown than in Tonga. RL is played in all our schools and our biggest club, Blacktown Workers, had a turnover of $52 million in 2016. 2017 was our first year in NSW Cup and then only as a joint venture with Manly.

If we can only sustain half a second-division team then realistically, how big can RL get in Samoa and Tonga?

[winnyason]

28 minutes ago, Farmduck said:

I think we need to be realistic about the future RL strength of a country with 100K people and no money. Even if we throw in the expats, there are still only 200K Tongans, smaller than Wakefield.

I have avoided all this talk about "growth" and "expansion" because I think most of it is built on fantasy. We have more people here in Blacktown that Tonga and Samoa combined - in fact, more of the Tongan players were born in Blacktown than in Tonga. RL is played in all our schools and our biggest club, Blacktown Workers, had a turnover of $52 million in 2016. 2017 was our first year in NSW Cup and then only as a joint venture with Manly.

If we can only sustain half a second-division team then realistically, how big can RL get in Samoa and Tonga?

Blacktown workers was a joke. I a manly fan no benefit what so ever. The issue with the coach sooking when he got sacked and then half his players leaving pathetic. Manly be better setting up a link with someone who going to act as feeder not have there own agenda.

Not sure if you watched nz v tonga at waikato but if you think it cant make game bigger thats your imo.

[Farmduck]

20 minutes ago, winnyason said:

Blacktown workers was a joke. I a manly fan no benefit what so ever. The issue with the coach sooking when he got sacked and then half his players leaving pathetic. Manly be better setting up a link with someone who going to act as feeder not have there own agenda.

Not sure how this proves the massive growth potential of Tonga and Samoa. If anything it says that even a well-funded sporting organisation with a huge junior league struggles to field a second division team. Kinda proves my point.

24 minutes ago, winnyason said:

Not sure if you watched nz v tonga at waikato but if you think it cant make game bigger thats your imo.

Yes I watched Auckland B beat Auckland A. How exactly will this make our game bigger? Bigger crowds? Weren't the people in the crowd already RL supporters? Wouldn't most of them already be attending RL games in NZ? Bigger TV deals? In Tonga I don't think so. In OZ and NZ? Wouldn't those TV-watchers already be watching the NRL?

And what if it does produce growth? How much can it produce? There is about 1 new Tongan-born player coming into the NRL each year - roughly replacement rate to keep the total number at about 10. How much financial growth can it produce?

[winnyason]

56 minutes ago, Farmduck said:

Not sure how this proves the massive growth potential of Tonga and Samoa. If anything it says that even a well-funded sporting organisation with a huge junior league struggles to field a second division team. Kinda proves my point.

Yes I watched Auckland B beat Auckland A. How exactly will this make our game bigger? Bigger crowds? Weren't the people in the crowd already RL supporters? Wouldn't most of them already be attending RL games in NZ? Bigger TV deals? In Tonga I don't think so. In OZ and NZ? Wouldn't those TV-watchers already be watching the NRL?

And what if it does produce growth? How much can it produce? There is about 1 new Tongan-born player coming into the NRL each year - roughly replacement rate to keep the total number at about 10. How much financial growth can it produce?

Basing growth on poker machine sales. What that got to do with rugby league. Answer the question in regard to manly your giving indication its a sucess, telling you from manly side of thing is was far from. 

Fairly minimal chance it will happen again 

 

[winnyason]

1 hour ago, Farmduck said:

Not sure how this proves the massive growth potential of Tonga and Samoa. If anything it says that even a well-funded sporting organisation with a huge junior league struggles to field a second division team. Kinda proves my point.

Yes I watched Auckland B beat Auckland A. How exactly will this make our game bigger? Bigger crowds? Weren't the people in the crowd already RL supporters? Wouldn't most of them already be attending RL games in NZ? Bigger TV deals? In Tonga I don't think so. In OZ and NZ? Wouldn't those TV-watchers already be watching the NRL?

And what if it does produce growth? How much can it produce? There is about 1 new Tongan-born player coming into the NRL each year - roughly replacement rate to keep the total number at about 10. How much financial growth can it produce?

As for financial benefit its short sighted fans like yourself why game where it is. 

Talking up turnover when it the pure evil of poker machine. Ask parra how pokies helped there cap issues 

[B rad]

1 hour ago, Farmduck said:

How much financial growth can it produce?

See the sea of red in the crowds, all the Tongan grandmothers didn't just get together and knit those jerseys before the game. I assume merchandise sales will be an income to our sport.  25000 people showed up for that game. If Tonga were a bunch of amateurs with the exception from the 2 or 3 NRL players born there how many people would have shown up for that game do you think? 7 000, maybe 10 000 if your lucky. Who wants to watch a 70 to nothing flogging? Not as many people as would want to watch a competitive test. Ticket sales is an income. 

Ok, this is maybe/could be stuff but if you are a potential sponsor and you see a packed stadium with good TV ratings and media coverage would that maybe give you an idea for sponsorship options. 

We will see how much benefit financially in the future I guess, either way you and me are both guessing atm. 

[Farmduck]

1 hour ago, winnyason said:

Basing growth on poker machine sales. What that got to do with rugby league. Answer the question in regard to manly your giving indication its a sucess, telling you from manly side of thing is was far from. 

Fairly minimal chance it will happen again 

 

I didn't say anything about growth being based on poker machines. Answer what question? I used Blacktown as an example of how much financial and grassroots backing it took to create 1 second-division team. You seem to have confirmed this by repeating that it was a failure. At no point did I claim it was a success.

1 hour ago, winnyason said:

As for financial benefit its short sighted fans like yourself why game where it is. 

Talking up turnover when it the pure evil of poker machine. Ask parra how pokies helped there cap issues 

So you don't think there's a role for discussing the financial reality of fielding professional sporting teams? Again, I didn't claim that the turnover of Blacktown Workers was a guarantee of onfield success.

[Farmduck]

1 hour ago, B rad said:

See the sea of red in the crowds, all the Tongan grandmothers didn't just get together and knit those jerseys before the game. I assume merchandise sales will be an income to our sport.  25000 people showed up for that game.

 

I have been watching closely every time the camera shows the crowd. I see lots of assorted red shirts but I haven't seen a single Tonga RLWC 2017 shirt. I'm sure there are some but, at HT, I haven't seen one yet.

1 hour ago, B rad said:

 If Tonga were a bunch of amateurs with the exception from the 2 or 3 NRL players born there how many people would have shown up for that game do you think? 7 000, maybe 10 000 if your lucky. Who wants to watch a 70 to nothing flogging? Not as many people as would want to watch a competitive test. Ticket sales is an income. 

 

I don't understand your point here. I was talking about the growth of RL. If Tonga played 10 games a year they wouldn't be able to play them all at some venue with a large Tongan population. Even so, it doesn't count as "RL growth in Tonga."

 

 

[B rad]

 

52 minutes ago, Farmduck said:

I don't understand your point here. I was talking about the growth of RL. If Tonga played 10 games a year they wouldn't be able to play them all at some venue with a large Tongan population. Even so, it doesn't count as "RL growth in Tonga."

My statement was in regards to how much financial growth can it produce. My point was more competitive teams means more entertaining games and more tickets sold, more money through the gate thus financial growth. Today we saw a great game with Lebanon but they don't have as many NRL first graders in their team and I think it showed in the crowd. So the gate takings would have been significantly less. 

 

If your talking about growth of RL then you don't think the success of and media hype surrounding Tonga is going to get more Tongan kids taking up the game instead of Union or something else?

 

[wackojacko]

If nothing else, it appears they could provide the struggling NZRL with some financially viable international competition for home internationals. Hopefully we could see some more players coming out of Tonga itself but it's likely they will remain a heritage nation for the foreseeable future.

[Damien]

After just seeing 25,000+ Tongan supporters in a 30,000 capacity crowd and the largest Rugby League crowd in New Zealand for quite some time, it makes the decision to stage a triple header in Western Sydney in a 20,000 stadium even more ludicrous.