Elstone visits Toronto Wolfpack. The verdict?

[John WP Fan]

14 hours ago, The Parksider said:

If we have a procession of clubs following TWP say New York, Boston, Montreal, Hamilton and Jacksonville, the other side of the coin is the relegation of maybe Widnes, Salford, Leeds, Hull.K.R, Wakefield and Hull as it stands.

I have raised the issue of how a Transatlantic League means decimating the professional game and academies here. How do you think 45,000 SL fans will react to being sent down to watch the championship? 

This is just ridiculous. Why not have "expansion" really mean that, and grow the league. The premise that adding new teams in interesting places to grow the game requires kicking out English teams is nonsense. Let's grow the game together.

And yes, teams joining SL must meet some objective standards, including investing in player development. They must bring money to the game, and not hurt existing teams.

And existing teams ought to meet the same reasonable, realistic, objective standards. It may be the case that some existing teams do not belong in Super League. It may be the case that there are too many small teams without room to grow crammed in next to each other. Perhaps some of those teams would prosper better at a lower level of competition.

[JohnM]

7 minutes ago, John WP Fan said:

This is just ridiculous. Why not have "expansion" really mean that, and grow the league. The premise that adding new teams in interesting places to grow the game requires kicking out English teams is nonsense. Let's grow the game together.

And yes, teams joining SL must meet some objective standards, including investing in player development. They must bring money to the game, and not hurt existing teams.

And existing teams ought to meat the same reasonable, realistic, objective standards. It may be the case that some existing teams do not belong in Super League. It may be the case that there are too many small teams without room to grow crammed in next to each other. Perhaps some of those teams would prosper better at a lower level of competition.

To make that work you'd need amongst other things  a "no cannibalisation" rule.

[Big Picture]

2 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

This is just ridiculous. Why not have "expansion" really mean that, and grow the league. The premise that adding new teams in interesting places to grow the game requires kicking out English teams is nonsense. Let's grow the game together.

And yes, teams joining SL must meet some objective standards, including investing in player development. They must bring money to the game, and not hurt existing teams.

And existing teams ought to meet the same reasonable, realistic, objective standards. It may be the case that some existing teams do not belong in Super League. It may be the case that there are too many small teams without room to grow crammed in next to each other. Perhaps some of those teams would prosper better at a lower level of competition.

The problem is that expansion can't grow SL without more money, as the reduction from 14 teams to 12 was driven by the game's limited finances.  As Eric Pérez stated in his Back Chat special a couple of years ago, the game''s UK revenues are maxed out with its present geographic spread of top teams and a paying TV contract from North America needs 5 or 6 six teams from over here in the top tier.  So in the short term, that would mean more teams like Toronto elbowing traditional clubs out of SL into the second tier because even with all the TV money the top clubs get now they lose players to RU and the NRL which both pay better so they certainly can't afford any reduction.  And to fund a bigger top tier and also pay those teams more money than they get now will require a lot more money coming in that at present.

Even in the very short term including more expansion teams in SL will cost those clubs money, when they're just getting by now.  At present they have one trip to France to pay for each year and one home match with "no away fans" buying tickets, programs, food and/or drinks from them.  If Toronto and Toulouse both come up, that will change to two trips to France and one to Canada to pay for and three home matches with "no away fans" buying tickets, programs, food and/or drinks from them.  The fact that they find that fairly modest cost increase and possible slight revenue drop worrying shows the small-time, minor league nature of the so-called Super League.  The likes of Toronto being in such a league is truly a mix of oil and water in many ways.

[The Parksider]

On 8/23/2018 at 6:03 AM, Omott91 said:

On the issues of new NA clubs not appearing, give it a break, its only been 18 months since Twp started. Creating clubs from nothing could take years. Why don't you apply the same amount of scrutineering that you have against Twp surely you should be advocating that Salford should not be included in SL? 

Don't try the double standards nonsense, Salford should run an academy. As for "creating more NA clubs may take years" you deliberately ignore the fact New York applied last year, with Boston ready to follow if they got in, Montreal was planned for 2019 and Perez referred to Jacksonville in April.  That's five clubs who have already either entered (TWP) applied (New York) or have been lined up to get that alleged NA TV deal. But it's all gone dead now......you don't hear anthing from Perez anymore.......

19 hours ago, John WP Fan said:

This is just ridiculous. Why not have "expansion" really mean that, and grow the league. The premise that adding new teams in interesting places to grow the game requires kicking out English teams is nonsense. Let's grow the game together.

"Ridiculous"??? As Big Picture says there isn't the money to expand Superleague but more than that there aren't the players either as TWP won't produce any and if as seems likely TWP replace Widnes and Widnes slash their budgets and close the academy there you have the instant damage done to our game here. Loss of interest and participation in Widnes. A heavy price to pay.

19 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

Thats all you needed to say really.

What? Ridiculous? How about your idea Perth WILL be joining Superleague from 9,000 miles away. Now that is your most naive and ridiculous statement to date.....

21 hours ago, JohnM said:

I think Toronto has captured the imagination of fans in a way that our game has not seen since the early days of Catalans and in my view Toronto brings new opportunities for our code,  Opportunities for lapsed fans to be enthused, reawakened. Opportunities to attract new fans, new interest, new media, new sponsors etc etc., too.

THANK YOU JOHN for obliging with your view. With respect I watched with great enthusiasm as an expansionist when Catalans, Harlequines and the Welsh Crusaders joined SL. I do not however remember many people joining in with me even though these clubs were genuine French, Welsh and London clubs including many home grown players. They sadly didn't attract the crowds at their away games.

I just see TWP as an "Invention" to satisfy one man's whims. But as a lot of people appear to agree with you (or maybe they just don't want the flack I get!!) especially in the RL press then maybe TWP need to be promoted into SL so we can find out whether they are the future of the game, or just an invention to blag their owner a place in a top league.......... If they are denied promotion I see many articles in the press and threads on here angry that a massive opportunity has somehow been thrown away.

But for the life of me how is it a massive opportunity when there weren't any serious NA investors, they hardly play RL in NA, but Union instead, there'll be no big NA TV deal and it's a massive headache to play at a distance of 3,000 miles?.  The plusses you state need TV companies, traditional fans, new fans, and sponsors wishing to sell their goods and services to be so enthused about TWP being in SL they would pay out their money just to be a part of it?

It never happened with London, or Catalans or Crusaders??

[Bob8]

On 8/22/2018 at 5:57 PM, Big Picture said:

That would lack the transatlantic aspect which has been so vital to Toronto's success though, so it wouldn't have a hook for spectators or TV viewers and therefore not for broadcasters either.  If I were them, my plan B would be a new transatlantic league evenly balanced either side of the Atlantic.

How do you know the transatlantic aspect was vital?  As opposed to entering an existing functioning league?  I will have a little fun with the Oslo comparison again.

[TheReaper]

I don't think it was necessarily the "transatlantic" aspect either.  It's just the good old Canadian inferiority complex, if it's someone else's it must be better. Usually applies to the USA,  but hey rugby is British,  a British league must be better.  

I think it's more of a Toronto thing. That's why the Argos struggle so bad, Toronto is too good for "only" a Canadian league.

[Bob8]

11 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The transatlantic aspect was vital because there isn’t an existing functioning league.

very few industries, especially sports are looking to narrow their scope. This idea that RL should be looking use SL to build up the sport in other countries so they can then go back to their own league is a little backward.

nobody in the nfl is suggesting a London franchise builds a uk NFL league. They see the potential in London and the NFL want a part of it.

RL seems to have a sizeable portion of people ready to turn their backs on successful new markets to go back and try and sell the game in Workington again. 

I would agree.

That is to say it is access to an existing established professional league, rather than being transatlantic per se.

[Bob8]

1 hour ago, scotchy1 said:

An established league at the higher level. 

If there were an established transatlantic league it is unlikely they would be choosing to join a North American League.

that we have a transatlantic league now, as we have a European one is a step forward not a failing. We may have skipped a step but we have got were we should be heading anyway 

That part in bold makes no sense to me.  Perhaps I misunderstood.

If there was a sustainable professional league in North America, I see no reason why they would choose to play in a different time zone and have the extra distance. 

As it is, the team is based in Manchester and the existing league is based around the north of England.  That makes the travel a necessity.

Big Picture's statement, "That would lack the transatlantic aspect which has been so vital to Toronto's success though", does not appear to be based on anything.

[Bob8]

21 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

If there was an established transatlantic league and an established North American League, of course they would choose the transatlantic league.

why choose a potential market of 600m when there is a market of 1.4b being offered to you. 

You think there is any league in the world which is turning down the media markets of France and the UK and the wider EU? That’s a massive carrot to any sport, it’s why the NFL want a London franchise. They don’t just want to spread the game in some altruistic act of Corinthian goodwill. They know that Europe is a massive market and they want a share.

The NFL want a London franchise, as London is a city of eight million and of great wealth. 

It is the equivalent of New York, which already has two franchises.  Jacksonville has a population more comparable to Liverpool or Manchester, but got their franchise first despite being much smaller.  The NFL did not seem worried at that point about choosing a population of about a million over 800 million people then.

And, neither NA nor Europe are one big market.

You are making an assertion without evidence.  We can point to a history of frequent failure of new professional leagues and a better success rate of clubs joining existing leagues.  We cannot do the same for your assertion, so it remains an assertion.

It is notable that no SL clubs are trying to join the NRL.

[JohnM]

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

THANK YOU JOHN for obliging with your view. 

will get back soon with further thoughts

[Bob8]

Just now, scotchy1 said:

The NFL don’t want London, why would they want to limit themselves to London there are another one 60million people to go at. Another roughly 20million households. London isn’t the prize it’s a bulkhead. After London comes Germany after Germany Spain. 

Europe and NA aren’t one big market because  nobody has yet bridged the Atlantic. Now that is changing the NFL are doing it the NBA are doing it the MLB are doing and RL are doing it. Individually Europe is a big market that’s why Sky broadcast to Italy and Germany, why itv is owned by a German company why the Toronto raptors play in the nba and soon as why either Disney or Comcast will own Sky. 

It isn’t notable that no SL clubs have tried to join the NRL see the 1997 and the wcs and wcc

The first paragraph is based on your assumption and ignores my counter argument completely.  If you have no evidence or cannot be bother to do anything but assert, there is no good reason to consider your argument.

I agree that sport is going more international.  I believe that reflects that media is going more international.  I wish you would not write to me like an idiot because I do not agree with you.  You seem to assume that if I were as smart and well informed as you that I would agree. 

Les Catalans market is not 60 million, it is about 1% of that.  London Bronco's show that the maximum market potential of an area is not the same as the practically realizable market for a club. 

You cite a competition from 21 years ago on an argument about how times are changing.  I suggest that sport and leagues will become more international to capture bigger markets, but that long distances will be a drag on that rather than a plus. 

 

[Bob8]

17 hours ago, The Parksider said:

Don't try the double standards nonsense, Salford should run an academy. As for "creating more NA clubs may take years" you deliberately ignore the fact New York applied last year, with Boston ready to follow if they got in, Montreal was planned for 2019 and Perez referred to Jacksonville in April.  That's five clubs who have already either entered (TWP) applied (New York) or have been lined up to get that alleged NA TV deal. But it's all gone dead now......you don't hear anthing from Perez anymore.......

"Ridiculous"??? As Big Picture says there isn't the money to expand Superleague but more than that there aren't the players either as TWP won't produce any and if as seems likely TWP replace Widnes and Widnes slash their budgets and close the academy there you have the instant damage done to our game here. Loss of interest and participation in Widnes. A heavy price to pay.

What? Ridiculous? How about your idea Perth WILL be joining Superleague from 9,000 miles away. Now that is your most naive and ridiculous statement to date.....

THANK YOU JOHN for obliging with your view. With respect I watched with great enthusiasm as an expansionist when Catalans, Harlequines and the Welsh Crusaders joined SL. I do not however remember many people joining in with me even though these clubs were genuine French, Welsh and London clubs including many home grown players. They sadly didn't attract the crowds at their away games.

I just see TWP as an "Invention" to satisfy one man's whims. But as a lot of people appear to agree with you (or maybe they just don't want the flack I get!!) especially in the RL press then maybe TWP need to be promoted into SL so we can find out whether they are the future of the game, or just an invention to blag their owner a place in a top league.......... If they are denied promotion I see many articles in the press and threads on here angry that a massive opportunity has somehow been thrown away.

But for the life of me how is it a massive opportunity when there weren't any serious NA investors, they hardly play RL in NA, but Union instead, there'll be no big NA TV deal and it's a massive headache to play at a distance of 3,000 miles?.  The plusses you state need TV companies, traditional fans, new fans, and sponsors wishing to sell their goods and services to be so enthused about TWP being in SL they would pay out their money just to be a part of it?

It never happened with London, or Catalans or Crusaders??

I unignored and it was a treat.

Last year Parksider was warning that five NA teams were going to enter SL.  I said that was BS.  I was right and Parksider claims he told us so!

"there isn't the money to expand Superleague".  Super League needs more market, it can expand if it raises money and must not if it does not. 

"Catalans, Harlequines and the Welsh Crusaders joined SL."

He did.  I remember that.  I on the other hand thought Crusaders would not last in Super League.  He makes a habit of being wrong, does Parksider.

[Bob8]

27 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

The nfl are open and honest about this

“We have a narrow focus of markets. Canada, Mexico, the UK and China would be our priority markets, and then Germany and Brazil are probably the next two development markets for us” Mark Waller NFL international.

london broncos prove nothing more than how not to run a sports club.

of course the distance is a pull on that. It’s why every sport isn’t a worldwide league but those issues have all but disappeared and the world is adjusting. The champions league stretches from Dublin to Vladivostok, from the arctic circle to a couple of miles from africa. These challenges aren’t that great

I’ve addressed your points politely and neutrally, I’m really not sure why you are so sensitive about that. There is nothing there that could be read as patronising simply my arguments, evidence and assertions. You are more than welcome to disagree and put forth yours. That’s why this exists.

If they had an eight million city in the USA, do you seriously suggest they would go for London first?

It is evident that they had some existing markets, moved progressively to cover all the big domestic markets, then medium domestic markets and then, finally, to international markets.  That does not demonstrate that trans-atlantic is an advantage.  For that to be the case, they would have to drop Jacksonville for Liverpool.

[Bob8]

5 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well, i mean they were playing in London before LA had a team.

There are Vancouver, Toronto and Mexico city on their doorstep. They have taken a team from San Diego

But none of this addresses the idea that they arent aiming for London, they are aiming for the UK. The NFL will tell you that the UK fanbase is 13m that can't be london.

The NFL will tell you that in 2013, of the 167k people who attended an NFL game in London, 132k were from the UK but outside london and 6.5k were from overseas.

 London are the beachhead not the prize.

It is waffle.

They filled hte market.  THey played in LA before London, they have a franchise in LA before London.

You are making some very obvious points and others without basis.  It is fine to say it is what you reckon, I just want to see actual reasoning beyond you asserting.

If the NFL set up a franchise in Copenhagen, it would be huge and the biggest sports team in Denmark and attract support from Sweden as well.  It is not happening as hte market is small than the UK, obviously.  Equally, painfully, obviously, they have targetting smaller US markets than Denmark. 

My suggest that they are targetting London/UK despite it being transatlantic, rather than because it is transatlantic. 

[TboneFromTO]

31 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Well, i mean they were playing in London before LA had a team.

There are Vancouver, Toronto and Mexico city on their doorstep. They have taken a team from San Diego

.

There IS a reason that the NFL aren't it Toronto, and it rhymes with gruffalo.  

[Bob8]

42 minutes ago, TboneFromTO said:

There IS a reason that the NFL aren't it Toronto, and it rhymes with gruffalo.  

And Mexico is dirt poor. 

Toronto is a reasonable argument to be fair, but it is finding an exception to the rule.

[Big Picture]

14 hours ago, Bob8 said:

How do you know the transatlantic aspect was vital?  As opposed to entering an existing functioning league?  I will have a little fun with the Oslo comparison again.

Because Eric Pérez played up the transatlantic aspect big time when the club's formation was announced.  RL isn't the only sport with just one pro team in Canada playing in a foreign league,the same paradigm applies to both the Blue Jays and Raptors too, and both the Maple Leafs and Toronto also play in foreign leagues although they are not the sole Canadians team in those leagues.  So apart from playing a sport previously unknown to Canadians the transatlantic aspect is the Wolfpack's main unique point of difference from all other Toronto teams.

[Bob8]

5 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Because Eric Pérez played up the transatlantic aspect big time when the club's formation was announced.  RL isn't the only sport with just one pro team in Canada playing in a foreign league,the same paradigm applies to both the Blue Jays and Raptors too, and both the Maple Leafs and Toronto also play in foreign leagues although they are not the sole Canadians team in those leagues.  So apart from playing a sport previously unknown to Canadians the transatlantic aspect is the Wolfpack's main unique point of difference from all other Toronto teams.

Eric Pérez was heading off the inevitable criticism (I confess, I include myself) that a trans-Atlantic team would not be feasible.  He was heading it off. 

I think there is an advantage in an international league.  It reflects modern media and historically media has led sport.  In some places, there are ample chances to see teams playing internationally at the top level.  But, again, I will poke you with the hypothetical example of Oslo. 

Your claim is that trans-Atlantic was a major point, your evidence is a man with a huge vested interest said so.  I cannot accept that as significant evidence.

Of course, we do have a number of Canadian posters.  If they believe that playing English teams is important to their interest in their team, I shall reconsider.

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, Bob8 said:

The NFL want a London franchise, as London is a city of eight million and of great wealth. 

It is the equivalent of New York, which already has two franchises.  Jacksonville has a population more comparable to Liverpool or Manchester, but got their franchise first despite being much smaller.  The NFL did not seem worried at that point about choosing a population of about a million over 800 million people then.

And, neither NA nor Europe are one big market.

You are making an assertion without evidence.  We can point to a history of frequent failure of new professional leagues and a better success rate of clubs joining existing leagues.  We cannot do the same for your assertion, so it remains an assertion.

It is notable that no SL clubs are trying to join the NRL.

In a real sense, North America is one big market.  That's one of the reasons why all the major pro sports leagues here other than the NFL are cross-border leagues now.

[Bob8]

Just now, Big Picture said:

In a real sense, North America is one big market.  That's one of the reasons why all the major pro sports leagues here other than the NFL are cross-border leagues now.

Big Picture, no big evidence, just big assertions.

[The Parksider]

18 hours ago, scotchy1 said:

RL seems to have a sizeable portion of people ready to turn their backs on successful new markets to go back and try and sell the game in Workington again. 

That we have a transatlantic league now, as we have a European one is a step forward not a failing.

You and Bob8 talk in absolute nonsensical riddles, you deserve each other. Anyway......

The idea we have "stepped forward into successful new markets" is typical of how you two avoid the simplicity of the situation which is that by the measure of Eric Perez's own stated business plan TWP have failed and find themselves marooned in a foreign league 

Let's take your silly slogan “successful new markets” for starters. The only “market” involved here is TWP supporters buying tickets, merchandise and Beer. Whilst they generate hundreds of thousands of $dollars doing that, Mr. Argyle has to pay out $Millions of Dollars to run the club. That isn’t a successful market. It’s a heavy loss making one. You talk utter nonsense.

Then you have declared that we have a Transatlantic League as some sort of success "a step forward"?

The actual Transatlantic Superleague Mr. Perez planned was to contain 5-6 North American clubs to unlock a big North American TV deal from major broadcasters. Whilst it is highly debatable they'd want to pay much if anything to watch half a league of unknown Brits and fledgling Americans playing a foreign sport anyway, the planned Transatlantic league failed. New York applied and didn't get the nod from Wood, leaving Boston who were watching the situation stranded. Perez's Montreal pals pencilled in for 2019 hasn't happened and the man himself has surfaced only once to mumble out a rumour Jacksonville are on their way when Mick Gledhill half cornered him at Odsal over the failure of his plans.

You call this a "step forward? New York, Boston and Montreal's non appearance were three steps backwards and the failure of the grid iron player conversion scheme was yet another failure you don't mention. But anyway as I said to John M. it may need us to see this through and allow TWP if they win promotion to have a go and show us if they really were the future, because so many of us still think they are despite Perez himself knowing it all fell apart in April when New York didn't get the nod....

EDIT - I dont want a reply from you Scotchy I want other people to see how you re-invent Perez's business plan as something  else then declare it as success.

[Bob8]

7 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

How is it waffle? You keep saying I'm just making assertions or making points without basis yet only one of us here is giving any facts and it isnt you.

You say that im making obvious points but your argument is that the NFL are targeting the UK despite it being across the atlantic rather than because its across the atlantic. Well of course, the act of crossing the ocean makes no difference at all. The NFL cross the atlantic not to cross the atlantic but for the same reason man first started crossing oceans, the riches on the other side. They cross the atlantic to get access to the 2nd biggest Market in the world in the EU. To get access to the 4th, 5th, and 6th biggest economies in the world.

The NFL arent aiming for Denmark for the same reason they arent going to Austria, they have bigger fish to fry.

The NFL want a transatlantic league because thats where The Uk, Germany, France, Spain etc are. Big economies where there is money to be made. Of course if those places where somehwere else than the NFL wouldnt look to a transatlantic league. But they are where they are and thats the reliaty we live. The NFL are becoming a transatlantic sport because the atlantic separates two huge economies with similar cultures, North America and Europe.

For exactly the same reason Toronto would rather be part of a transatlantic league as opposed to a North American league. Because together NA and Europe have economies more than double the size of China, Japan, India, Brazil, South Korea, Australia, Russia, Indonesia, Turkey and Saudi Arabia and Toronto in a transatlantic league can get a share of that.

Super league, should Toronto be promoted, would cover the 5th, 6th and 10th biggest economies in the world. Those three countries would create the third biggest media market in the world. Worth about $£240b. Thats a bloody brilliant thing. Its something we should be screaming from the roof tops to anyone who will listen. Thats 3 of the top 10 media markets in the world. Im not sure any other league could claim that.

It is waffle as the argument is very simple.

The claim was that the league being trans-atlantic rather than North American was an advatage.  The evidence was that Eric Perez said so. 

You cited the NFL's ambitions in London as eveidence that trans-Atlantic was preferred to no trans-Atlantic.  Yet, the NFL targetted far smaller markets in North America first.  You cited Mexico City, which is ###### poor and has infastructure problems and also cited Toronto, which is close to the existing Buffalo Bills (and that debate has been going on for a decade). 

"You say that im making obvious points but your argument is that the NFL are targeting the UK despite it being across the atlantic rather than because its across the atlantic. Well of course, the act of crossing the ocean makes no difference at all.

- Exactly.  That was it.  I argued this, you did not read properly as you assumed you were arguing with an idiot and wasted out time.  To be fair, it was my fault too for engaging

So, with this in mind, where is the evidence that TWP would not have entered a successful North American league had such a league existed?  There is none.  That was the ###### point.

[Bob8]

4 minutes ago, scotchy1 said:

Im sorry Bob but your argument is just silly. You are asking us to narrow it to the point of absurdity. That the transatlantic aspect of it would be defined not by what is on either side of the atlantic but by crossing the atlantic. Its just silly. That point is just a silly thing to argue.

Would yes TWP have entered a transatlantic league if one existed as well as a North American one? The answer is still yes. Europe is still at the other side of the Atlantic. Europe and NA are still bigger than NA on its own. The media markets of the UK, France, Germany, et al are still big enough for it to be worth the effort. 1.4b people is still bigger than 600m. Media markets worth more than trillion dollars is still bigger than $650m.

Would they do it if those places didnt exist and those riches werent on offer just to be transatlantic? Of course not but that seems an absurd suggestion that has no basis in reality.

But those riches are on offer, you have to be transatlantic to get them. Ergo you would rather be transatlantic than not.

I will leave you to argue with yourself.

You are convinced people do not take your arguments seriously as they do not get you, but you are not as clever as you think.  None of us are.  You argued a silly point and now insist you did not argue with it.

Those market sizes are hypothetical, as you well know.  Of course, there would be no trans-Atlantic competition if there was nothing worthwhile on the other side of the Atlantic, but we both know that was never the argument.

You are rivalling Parksider for making up strawmans.

You argued that having to cross that Atlantic was an advantage.  You finally accepted it was not.

The rest is waffle.

[TboneFromTO]

With all this talk of transatlanticness :

That 6-7 hour flight could in theory be useful for teams if utilized properly.  They could prepare study binders or utilize video  prep on the plane.  Not the whole trip, but part of it atleast

In my head (which is a magical place you would all love) RL takes off in NA enough that we have 3 teams in SL, teams (or the league) invest in a plane or two and train on the plane- physically and with inflight video. (I said my head was a magical place to be!)

[JohnM]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:38 AM, The Parksider said:

Don't try the double standards nonsense, Salford should run an academy. As for "creating more NA clubs may take years" you deliberately ignore the fact New York applied last year, with Boston ready to follow if they got in, Montreal was planned for 2019 and Perez referred to Jacksonville in April.  That's five clubs who have already either entered (TWP) applied (New York) or have been lined up to get that alleged NA TV deal. But it's all gone dead now......you don't hear anthing from Perez anymore.......

"Ridiculous"??? As Big Picture says there isn't the money to expand Superleague but more than that there aren't the players either as TWP won't produce any and if as seems likely TWP replace Widnes and Widnes slash their budgets and close the academy there you have the instant damage done to our game here. Loss of interest and participation in Widnes. A heavy price to pay.

What? Ridiculous? How about your idea Perth WILL be joining Superleague from 9,000 miles away. Now that is your most naive and ridiculous statement to date.....

THANK YOU JOHN for obliging with your view. With respect I watched with great enthusiasm as an expansionist when Catalans, Harlequines and the Welsh Crusaders joined SL. I do not however remember many people joining in with me even though these clubs were genuine French, Welsh and London clubs including many home grown players. They sadly didn't attract the crowds at their away games.

I just see TWP as an "Invention" to satisfy one man's whims. But as a lot of people appear to agree with you (or maybe they just don't want the flack I get!!) especially in the RL press then maybe TWP need to be promoted into SL so we can find out whether they are the future of the game, or just an invention to blag their owner a place in a top league.......... If they are denied promotion I see many articles in the press and threads on here angry that a massive opportunity has somehow been thrown away.

But for the life of me how is it a massive opportunity when there weren't any serious NA investors, they hardly play RL in NA, but Union instead, there'll be no big NA TV deal and it's a massive headache to play at a distance of 3,000 miles?.  The plusses you state need TV companies, traditional fans, new fans, and sponsors wishing to sell their goods and services to be so enthused about TWP being in SL they would pay out their money just to be a part of it?

It never happened with London, or Catalans or Crusaders??

I often feel that Parksider is one of the few on here with his feet firmly planted in the ground, even if sometimes, they seem bolted down with thief-proof headless bolts. I think too many fans have unrealistic expectations as to what can be achieved across the whole game, never mind with just one club. Some ideas wouldn’t even get into Dragons Den to be laughed out. Yes, Toronto is an invention. But then so was TV, the LED and the motor car.

My vision for the future of Toronto? Hmm, tough one. How can Toronto’s SL success be achieved, when can it be achieved, how much money will be needed, from where it will come and how long it can last even if it were to be achieved are unanswered questions. The RFL hasn’t got anywhere near enough money for some of these things, nor has the Championship, nor I think, has the owner of Toronto for the upwards of ten years it might take to establish a sustainable presence.

However, given that under present circumstances the club exists and seems to be making a fist of being a stand-alone club in a foreign game in a foreign country against opposition from within the game, I’m going to move on to what I see as a possible and realistic future for Toronto as a stand-alone club in SuperLeague.

 I am of course assuming the present owners of the WolfPack are prepared to finance the travel and subsistence of the WolfPack playing its SuperLeague away games in England and France. How many games? For budgetary purposes say 16 away games at £25K per game =£400K per season. Too high? Arrange away fixtures in groups to cut this but can’t cost Toronto less than £250 K can it? As a SuperLeague club, though, could this be covered by the Sky TV rights money for showing Toronto games when in playing English clubs in England.

When it comes to English and French SuperLeague clubs playing away in Toronto, I’d budget for three games a season – one regular season game in Toronto, one cup game in Toronto and one play-of game in Toronto, assuming a simpler play-off system to reduce fixtures, all @ say £30K for travel and subsistence per game. Being pessimistic, a SuperLeague club might need to raise £100K to allow for away games. Surely can’t expect Toronto to fund the away travel for all 13 other SL clubs ..£1.3 million or more.

All this is on the basis of one, just one SL club, Toronto. A stand-alone club. Some level of success would in my view serve as the catalyst then to develop some level of local infrastructure after enough years have passed. Then and only then look at a second North American club.

I regard the projections of a North American league as so much hyperbole, necessary though it might be to attract the dreamers, to attract attention and to build some hope for a future. I’ve dismissed the very idea though for the next five years at least. Might happen, might not, but this is my view: it’s not necessary yet to have a North American league secure a successful future for the WolfPack. It’s just too complex. At least WolfPack by playing in the English league have some sort of heritage by association, especially given Noble’s involvement. Setting up a North American league with no heritage, no infrastructure, is in my view a non-starter. Toronto could survive on its own, as it is doing though, because it’s just one club joining an existing league, fully up and running with half its games already played in front of knowledgeable fans.