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Sports Prophet

Don’t Expect NRL To Take Internationals Seriously...

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9 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Sure the NRL can afford to expand, but they can't afford to expand as quickly as they need to. They also can't afford to do all the other stuff that needs to happen at the same time as well.

V'landys is a stooge. 

All the wrong people like him. News, the Old boys club, basically everybody that is for either the status quo or a return to "the good old days' of a Sydney suburban competition think he is great, and that is a very bad sign of what is to come.

The last thing the NRL needs is more old club men from the Sydney bubble, who put their clubs and their own power and legacy before the interests of the sport as a whole. A modern day Arthurson and Quayle would be someone like Nick Politis, and if Nick Politis had the power he'd effectively kill the sport if it was in the Roosters interest. 

The guys that put in New Zealand and Perth.along with Newcastle.. Canberra.illawarra Brisbane etc. Lol.

They had the vision to expand.out of Sydney.  

Vlandys will.do some.good things. He will.get a good tv deal and will.be good for the commercial.side.of.things 

He also.realises league isn't as strong as it should.be in Sydney 

Dave Smith was probably the best we've had since Arthurson. 

The grassroots isn't that bad.  Clubs fund juniors.too like.your club and Penrith.very successfully. The states are also well.funded.now.too.

The Nrl.doesn't really need.to.expand. it beats afl.on tv anyway with two less.teams. .I'd like.to.see.expsnsion of.course but the games.in.decent shape.now.

It is frustrating though that league never realises.its.potential

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13 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

either ignorant or deluded.

Typical but unnecessary GD.

13 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

And I don't know what you mean by mitigation in this context, but if you mean that the NRL doesn't face as strong competition as RL face's in England and France

Sad that you don't know the history of the game in two of it major centers.

 

13 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Oh and if the RFL had the NRL's resources they would have ###### it all up against a wall on pointless internationals, exhibition games, and other cockamamie ideas by now. Not a cent of it would have trickled down past the professional level, and the players probably wouldn't have got a fair cut either because there's no players union.

I see, well that's that then.

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6 hours ago, Oxford said:

Typical but unnecessary GD.

It's true though.

You are literally either ignorant about RL's (and for that matter the AFL's) actual position in the Australian cultural and sporting landscape, or have an idealistic view of the NRL that doesn't conform to the reality of what it actually is.

Now I don't blame you for that, expecting an average joe to have intimate knowledge of the ins and outs of a big complex system from the other side of the world would be a bit silly. But again, it is true.

6 hours ago, Oxford said:

Sad that you don't know the history of the game in two of it major centers.

I know the history of both.

What I don't understand is how in one paragraph you can say 'your fates in your hands' bs while totally discounting the impact of other sports and cultural pressures in Australia's case, and then in the same paragraph go on to say 'it's different in England and France, unlike Australia the impact of culture and other sports actually matter in those places'. Actually I can understand how you can do that, I explained it before. . .

BTW, let's be honest, France hasn't really been one of RL's major centres since about the 60s or 70s.

6 hours ago, Oxford said:

I see, well that's that then.

Obviously I was being glib, but let's be honest there's a certain amount of truth to it as well.

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47 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

It's true though.

You are literally either ignorant about RL's (and for that matter the AFL's) actual position in the Australian cultural and sporting landscape, or have an idealistic view of the NRL that doesn't conform to the reality of what it actually is.

Now I don't blame you for that, expecting an average joe to have intimate knowledge of the ins and outs of a big complex system from the other side of the world would be a bit silly. But again, it is true.

I know the history of both.

What I don't understand is how in one paragraph you can say 'your fates in your hands' bs while totally discounting the impact of other sports and cultural pressures in Australia's case, and then in the same paragraph go on to say 'it's different in England and France, unlike Australia the impact of culture and other sports actually matter in those places'. Actually I can understand how you can do that, I explained it before. . .

BTW, let's be honest, France hasn't really been one of RL's major centres since about the 60s or 70s.

Obviously I was being glib, but let's be honest there's a certain amount of truth to it as well.

I'm sorry you find this so hard and can't avoid being disagreeable.

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9 hours ago, aj1908 said:

The guys that put in New Zealand and Perth.along with Newcastle.. Canberra.illawarra Brisbane etc. Lol.

They had the vision to expand.out of Sydney. 

Firstly, he didn't have the vision to expand, Kevin Humphrey's did. Arko just had the means to fulfill Kevin's vision.

And what did Arko do to those clubs once he got them into the competition, he totally disenfranchised them to the point that most of them went off and started/joined SL, and most of the ones that didn't join SL wanted to.

BTW, Canberra and Illawarra came in under Humphreys.

9 hours ago, aj1908 said:

Vlandys will.do some.good things. He will.get a good tv deal and will.be good for the commercial.side.of.things 

He also.realises league isn't as strong as it should.be in Sydney

Who knows, maybe he will be good for the TV deal, but he's already proven that he is just another Sydney centric  that will further kill the growth of the sport outside of Sydney in favour of bolstering it in Sydney, the place in the country where RL is the strongest and has the largest presence bar none.

While he is busy appeasing the old boys club in Sydney and the media moguls RL in the country will continue to slowly die on the vine, and you can forget about the "affiliated states", you know the places where RL actually needs the help the most.

10 hours ago, aj1908 said:

The grassroots isn't that bad.  Clubs fund juniors.too like.your club and Penrith.very successfully. The states are also well.funded.now.too.

Step outside of Sydney and Queensland and the grassroots are that bad!

RL's participation numbers (not including touch footy) are a disaster, most country leagues and clubs are the weakest they've ever been. Go outside of NSW, QLD, the ACT, and to a lesser extent Perth, and more or less all that is left of RL's grassroots is one big graveyard.

The NRL has devalued local juniors to the point that many of the clubs (including the Raiders) are pulling back on junior development. It's literally borderline impossible to win a competition with a team based on a core of local juniors when developing local juniors has become so expensive and there're no incentives in the cap to do it, especially when once a club has done all the work and invested all that time and money into a generation of juniors, other clubs that do basically no junior development at all (Storm and Roosters) take that money that they should be using to develop local juniors and use it to poach all the best talent from the clubs that do. 

None of the top five clubs most known for junior development have won a competition since 06, as things stand it's unlikely that any of them (except the Broncos) will regularly be competitive ever again.

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17 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

I'm not being disagreeable, I'm being bluntly honest.

Of course you're not and being honest is a good policy.

 

Edited by Oxford

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On 17/12/2019 at 12:29, The Great Dane said:

Firstly, he didn't have the vision to expand, Kevin Humphrey's did. Arko just had the means to fulfill Kevin's vision.

And what did Arko do to those clubs once he got them into the competition, he totally disenfranchised them to the point that most of them went off and started/joined SL, and most of the ones that didn't join SL wanted to.

BTW, Canberra and Illawarra came in under Humphreys.

Who knows, maybe he will be good for the TV deal, but he's already proven that he is just another Sydney centric  that will further kill the growth of the sport outside of Sydney in favour of bolstering it in Sydney, the place in the country where RL is the strongest and has the largest presence bar none.

While he is busy appeasing the old boys club in Sydney and the media moguls RL in the country will continue to slowly die on the vine, and you can forget about the "affiliated states", you know the places where RL actually needs the help the most.

Step outside of Sydney and Queensland and the grassroots are that bad!

RL's participation numbers (not including touch footy) are a disaster, most country leagues and clubs are the weakest they've ever been. Go outside of NSW, QLD, the ACT, and to a lesser extent Perth, and more or less all that is left of RL's grassroots is one big graveyard.

The NRL has devalued local juniors to the point that many of the clubs (including the Raiders) are pulling back on junior development. It's literally borderline impossible to win a competition with a team based on a core of local juniors when developing local juniors has become so expensive and there're no incentives in the cap to do it, especially when once a club has done all the work and invested all that time and money into a generation of juniors, other clubs that do basically no junior development at all (Storm and Roosters) take that money that they should be using to develop local juniors and use it to poach all the best talent from the clubs that do. 

None of the top five clubs most known for junior development have won a competition since 06, as things stand it's unlikely that any of them (except the Broncos) will regularly be competitive ever again.

Yeh poor widdle Brisbane Broncos had a cry when they weren't allowed to pick a beer sponsor in conflict with the qrl or play the grand final in briabane 

So they ran to Murdoch with the idea of a new league. It set league back 20 years.  Killed off all the good work the arl had done over ten plus years 

Even wayne.bennett admitted it was a mistake and apologised 

Edited by aj1908

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14 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

@The Great Dane, you make a lot of good points but Cronulla Sharks and Souths each would be in a list of the largest junior districts in Australia, wouldn’t you say?

penrith are massive

canberra have loads

all the queensland clubs have loads and loads of juniors

newcaste wollongong and central coast have good juniors

in terms of sydney parramatta massive juniors, then souths.

meloburne are basically another queensland club, their feeder team is in the queensland cup

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4 hours ago, aj1908 said:

penrith are massive

canberra have loads

all the queensland clubs have loads and loads of juniors

newcaste wollongong and central coast have good juniors

in terms of sydney parramatta massive juniors, then souths.

meloburne are basically another queensland club, their feeder team is in the queensland cup

I was referencing two recent premiers when mooted it’s virtually impossible to win a premiership when investing in youth.

TBF to @The Great Dane though, I now also see he said it’s virtually impossible to win a comp based on a core of local juniors, not virtually impossible to win a prem when a club invests in junior pathways.

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4 hours ago, aj1908 said:

penrith are massive

canberra have loads

all the queensland clubs have loads and loads of juniors

newcaste wollongong and central coast have good juniors

in terms of sydney parramatta massive juniors, then souths.

meloburne are basically another queensland club, their feeder team is in the queensland cup

Wollongong are haemorrhaging juniors btw and merging comps with Sutherland from 14s I think.

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8 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Wollongong are haemorrhaging juniors btw and merging comps with Sutherland from 14s I think.

Really? I'm a dragons fan we never seem short.of juniors 

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5 hours ago, aj1908 said:

Yeh poor widdle Brisbane Broncos had a cry when they weren't allowed to pick a beer sponsor in conflict with the qrl or play the grand final in briabane 

Not allowing any team to produce their own independent merchandise and if they did do it anyway taking all the profit and splitting it amongst all the clubs, trying to strong arm the Broncos into playing at Lang park when they got a better deal to play at ANZ because they were friends with the Lang Park Trust, forcing "out of town" teams to pay the travel costs of visiting teams but not making Sydney clubs pay for their travel expenses when they traveled to Sydney, refusing to allow finals to be played outside of Sydney (which TBF is understandable in some cases because there were no suitable stadiums in the city at the time, e.g. Canberra/Queanbeyan, but was inexcusable in most cases, e.g. Brisbane), hitting them harder than (most of) the Sydney clubs when they or their players broke rules/policies.

Allowing club officials from Sydney clubs to openly discuss conspiracies to dismantle their teams and sometimes even bankrupt their clubs at official meetings, and sometimes right to their faces, threatening them with expulsion from the competition anytime any of them challenged the NSWRL or ARL in anyway at all while allowing members from Sydney to openly challenge them publicly with no major repercussions whatsoever (e.g. famously the Bears campaign against cigarette sponsorship and advertisements), actively preventing them from having a major say in the operations of the NSWRL and it's future, often going so far as blocking them from participating in any of the many committees and boards unless it was a token position, etc, etc, etc, I could go on forever.

BTW, it wasn't just Brisbane who were disenfranchised, it was literally all of the clubs from outside of Sydney!

6 hours ago, aj1908 said:

So they ran to Murdoch with the idea of a new league. It set league back 20 years.  Killed off all the good work the arl had done over ten plus years 

Did you know that the Knights were early conspirators/supporters of SL?

The only reason they didn't join is because their players signed with the ARL before SL could get to them (because of a balls up in Brisbane), which basically forced the administration to follow suit.

By the way, I want to make it clear that I was not a supporter of SL, nor was I a supporter of the ARL either, I was pretty neutral but that is a story for another time. But again to make it clear I wasn't a SL supporter. 

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9 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Not allowing any team to produce their own independent merchandise and if they did do it anyway taking all the profit and splitting it amongst all the clubs, trying to strong arm the Broncos into playing at Lang park when they got a better deal to play at ANZ because they were friends with the Lang Park Trust, forcing "out of town" teams to pay the travel costs of visiting teams but not making Sydney clubs pay for their travel expenses when they traveled to Sydney, refusing to allow finals to be played outside of Sydney (which TBF is understandable in some cases because there were no suitable stadiums in the city at the time, e.g. Canberra/Queanbeyan, but was inexcusable in most cases, e.g. Brisbane), hitting them harder than (most of) the Sydney clubs when they or their players broke rules/policies.

Allowing club officials from Sydney clubs to openly discuss conspiracies to dismantle their teams and sometimes even bankrupt their clubs at official meetings, and sometimes right to their faces, threatening them with expulsion from the competition anytime any of them challenged the NSWRL or ARL in anyway at all while allowing members from Sydney to openly challenge them publicly with no major repercussions whatsoever (e.g. famously the Bears campaign against cigarette sponsorship and advertisements), actively preventing them from having a major say in the operations of the NSWRL and it's future, often going so far as blocking them from participating in any of the many committees and boards unless it was a token position, etc, etc, etc, I could go on forever.

BTW, it wasn't just Brisbane who were disenfranchised, it was literally all of the clubs from outside of Sydney!

Did you know that the Knights were early conspirators/supporters of SL?

The only reason they didn't join is because their players signed with the ARL before SL could get to them (because of a balls up in Brisbane), which basically forced the administration to follow suit.

By the way, I want to make it clear that I was not a supporter of SL, nor was I a supporter of the ARL either, I was pretty neutral but that is a story for another time. But again to make it clear I wasn't a SL supporter. 

Neutral lol. Sure bud. 

Nobody forced those clubs to join the nswrl or arl.

Only a super league fan would post this drivel.  It's ok I actually felt sorry for the raiders.  If they hadnt gone to super lesgue their team waa abkur to be ripped apart.by easts and other clubs

The Broncos had no.excuses other than greed.

The dragons almost went to super league too.

Super league was about Murdoch getting the pay tv rights to the game.  When he got them he killed off.half.the super league clubs including Perth. .and he ended up.with half ownership.in the game.  And got the pay if rights for massive unders.

Foxtel.has used the profits it makes from league to.overpay for afl.  It's one reason afl has so much money now 

All.because of your beloved super league.

If super league had never happened wed.still.have Perth and four teams in qld

The.best thing was seeing the super league competition failing so miserably despite Murdoch's millions.

Edited by aj1908
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53 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I was referencing two recent premiers when mooted it’s virtually impossible to win a premiership when investing in youth.

TBF to @The Great Dane though, I now also see he said it’s virtually impossible to win a comp based on a core of local juniors, not virtually impossible to win a prem when a club invests in junior pathways.

Yeah you misunderstood.

A team with a core of local juniors probably hasn't won a premiership since the Broncos in 06.

In saying that, a fairly reasonable argument could be made that just because a player comes from Brisbane doesn't necessarily mean that he was a Broncos junior if he was developed by another club and then poached back by Brisbane. I don't necessarily subscribe to that argument, but if you do then 03 would probably be the last time that a team built on a core of local juniors won a premiership.

Either way it's over a decade ago that it last happened, and that is extremely unlikely to change anytime soon.

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8 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Yeah you misunderstood.

A team with a core of local juniors probably hasn't won a premiership since the Broncos in 06.

In saying that, a fairly reasonable argument could be made that just because a player comes from Brisbane doesn't necessarily mean that he was a Broncos junior if he was developed by another club and then poached back by Brisbane. I don't necessarily subscribe to that argument, but if you do then 03 would probably be the last time that a team built on a core of local juniors won a premiership.

Either way it's over a decade ago that it last happened, and that is extremely unlikely to change anytime soon.

Correct, but the same could be said of all professional sports clubs in any sport I can bare to think of without actually researching.

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8 minutes ago, John Rhino said:
6 hours ago, aj1908 said:

Clubs should get salary cap exemptions for juniors. Together with long service allowances they should basically be free from the salary cap by 28.

Yes they damn well should, although I can’t fathom to consider how this would have only resulted in more premierships for Melbourne 😆

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37 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

Neutral lol. Sure bud.

You don't know me or my story, so who are you to aussme that you know better what I think then I am?

 You are however right about one thing, neutral was the wrong term to use to describe my position on ARL vs SL. In my opinion it didn't really matter who won because both were terrible, terrible for different reasons, but terrible nonetheless.

BTW, that "drivel" is all stuff that undeniably happened.

37 minutes ago, aj1908 said:

If super league had never happened wed.still.have Perth and four teams in qld

If SL had never happened most of the expansion teams and roughly half the Sydney clubs would have gone broke before 2005, and would have either folded or had to be bailed out by the league. 

Perth couldn't afford the extra expenses they were expected to come up with and saw the writing on the wall, the Crushers were getting ready to ask the ARL for a loan to keep their heads above water before they'd even played a game, the Raiders had been more or less bankrupted and were knocking on heavens door while praying for a miracle, the Knights were flat broke and had asked the NSWRL for loans before, the Steelers were slowly tanking, the Warriors struggled even with SL money and went through 3-4 different owners in 5 years and did actually go broke before being resurrected at the last second in 2000, and surely I don't need to good through the laundry list of problems faced on the GC and their different clubs (TBF it did seem like the Chargers were maybe starting to turn things around).

I'm sure i don't have to talk about all the Sydney clubs that were effectively dead men walking either.

It was only a matter of time before a few of them folded in quick succession, and when that happened the ARL was going to be in a very bad place.

Edited by The Great Dane

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17 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yes they damn well should, although I can’t fathom to consider how this would have only resulted in more premierships for Melbourne 😆

melbourne and salary cap ahem. lol

greg inglis probably still has that boat

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1 minute ago, The Great Dane said:

You don't know me or my story, so who are you to aussme that you know better what I think then I am?

 You are however right about one thing, neutral was the wrong term to use to describe my position on ARL vs SL. In my opinion it didn't really matter who won because both were terrible, terrible for different reasons, but terrible nonetheless.

BTW, that "drivel" is all stuff that undeniably happened.

If SL had never happened most of the expansion teams and roughly half the Sydney clubs would have gone broke before 2005, and would have either folded or had to be bailed out by the league. 

Perth couldn't afford the extra expenses they were expected to come up with and saw the writing on the wall, the Crushers were getting ready to ask the ARL for a loan to keep their heads above water before they'd even played a game, the Raiders had been more or less bankrupted and were knocking on heavens door while praying for a miracle, the Knights were flat broke and had asked the NSWRL for loans before, the Steelers were slowly tanking, the Warriors struggled even with SL money and went through 3-4 different owners in 5 years and did actually go broke before being resurrected at the last second in 2000, and surely I don't need to good through the laundry list of problems faced on the GC and their different clubs (TBF it did seem like the Chargers were maybe starting to turn things around).

I'm sure i don't have to talk about all the Sydney clubs were effectively dead men walking either.

It was only a matter of time before a few of them folded in quick succession, and when that happened the ARL was going to be in a very bad place.

the ARLs plan was to allow sydney clubs to die off on their own through natural attrition.  not these stupid mergers we got.

league in 1995 was at its peak, something it hasnt got close to since.  

before super league led to a blowout in wages, clubs finances were a lot more stable than youve made out.  this was in the day before players were getting 1 million a season.

even news ltd people have admitted what a good leader john quayle was, and he should be on the commission today.  we dont have leaders today like we had then.

you were bagging vladys for not wanting a perth team.  

they not only added perth, but new zealand, thats a visioary step.  the current leaders wouldnt even think of going to new zealand.

and brisbane could easily support two nrl sides then, let alone now.

the NRL turns over close to 500 million a year now and they dont want to go to perth.  back then the revenue wouldve probably been one tenth of that and they did.

if the nrl ever gets leaders like them it might finally reclaim its rightful number one spot.  

 

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25 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Correct, but the same could be said of all professional sports clubs in any sport I can bare to think of without actually researching.

True, but in most of those other professional sports the professional clubs aren't producing the juniors, it's all done either by the league or through lower tier competitions (e.g. the scholastic systems in the US) so it doesn't matter if there aren't local juniors in their teams because they have no skin in the development game.

However in the NRL if pro clubs are opting to pull back on junior development because it's so much harder (more or less impossible at this point) to succeed that way, then that means that less and less juniors are going to be developed overtime, and unless something changes drastically, eventually that is going to cause big problems for the code because their simply won't be enough quality juniors developed to maintain the standards of competition .

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