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10 hours ago, HarrogateKnights said:

On the topic of minimum contact versions of RL. X-league is making its debut in Harrogate tonight, with a coaching and playing session. Under Harrogate Fire Ants, we our leasing our own 3G cage pitch for the hour long session. We are one of 2 teams in North Yorkshire (the other being York City Knights foundation) , interestingly thus far no team in West Yorkshire, so plenty of development work to be done 

Let us know how it goes.

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12 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

If this thread is being wrapped up soon, might as well throw a Hail Mary.

As you said in a post further back, the fact that Tag is more recognisably League than Touch is, ought to deter the RFU from a Tag-grab. But in countries with negligible awareness of RL this won`t stop Tag being seen as non-contact RU.

I`ve mentioned Ireland in this regard, but there`s also South Africa who sent a team to the Tag WC for the first time in 2018. Pre-tournament they got some publicity including a TV appearance. Unsurprisingly the tenor was all Springboks, Super Rugby, RU shirts, RU footage, RU everything. League - nowhere seen or heard. 

Ladies League Tag (LLT) was launched in some NSW country areas expressly to attract more women to RL. It pre-dates the rapid growth of Women`s and girls` Tackle. And there`s a discernible link between the two, which amplifies another of your points about a proportion of players graduating to Tackle from Touch or Tag. (a number of the standouts in the QLD women`s Tackle comp that had its GF at the weekend came from Touch). Some NSW clubs` current women`s Tackle sides are the product of a demand for Tackle emerging from within their LLT sides. Some players even play contact and non-contact concurrently.

"League Tag" seems the best name for the full-size pitch, 11-aside game. At the moment it`s only for the ladies, but no reason for not having Men`s League Tag too. The cost of hiring pitches with goalposts is prohibitive, so this format has to played alongside Tackle. The extra players and space make for more intricate moves and patterns of play. All of which makes it the most appropriate for rep fixtures and to augment the RL WC.

What name we know the smaller version of Tag by is tricky. Aussies are likely to stick with "Oztag", Kiwis with "Tag Football". I`d love to think that word "Rugby" could be banished from Tag in the UK and Ireland, but realistically it will be hard to pull that fly from the ointment.

It`s disconcerting when OriginalMrC says that Tag "needs to be seen as being accessible to everyone". If a perception of Tag as non-contact RL might put some people off (presumably those with RU affections), it rather defeats the object of making converts if we give Tag a generic "Rugby" image.

The ideal scenario would be every RL club of any size running an Oztag League in its catchment area, with the option of a rep League Tag side at the weekend along with their Tackle sides. Each of the Oztag teams could wear a jersey with their team`s badge on the left and their RL parent club`s badge on the right, as do clubs in many of the junior leagues of NRL franchises.

If the RFL ran a short rep League Tag national competition, as things are, it would likely be dominated by South-East RL clubs. That`s a story which could attract wider media interest and sponsors.

I agree ` League Tag `name sounds good, it is short, to the point and punchy. And of course you can then add either Mens or womens in front. Played on the full size pitch would really show case the athleticism of those involved and I think you need the full size pitch if it is going to be played at a WC, otherwise it runs the risk of potentially looking like pre match entertainment. There is nothing like one player running flat out being pursued by another running flat out that a full length pitch provides, that really gets a crowd on its feet. A shorter field is often just a dash to the line. It has to be taken seriously at this level. And it should be if we are talking about the best from every country that has qualified.

I really like the idea with League Tag that we keep all the elements that make RL, the lot, bar the tackle. An added bonus is that we can keep the ` fend `, now whether it would have to be kept to the all parts of the body bar the head I am not sure, personally a palm directly on to the nose as someone is reaching for your Tag would ad that bit of physicality that could give the whole thing more cred. I always thought that a broken nose is a badge of honour in ex-Leagies. Don`t know though how attractive I would find a chick with a broken nose though. The ladies probably feel the same way. LOL.

I really feel like we are on to something with this version of the game, it would be such a great advert for the full tackle version and the code in general. Countries sending players from non league nations will get serious League exposure. Something that may expand the game back home.

One other quick point, my impression always was that Tag was developed because there was too many disputes in touch over whether some one was `touched` or not, you know what I mean, `I got you!`  `no you didn`t`   `Yes I did` etc. I can remember people in each others faces over this, and the higher the stakes the more the disputes.

I am happy to report that the `Ready4Rugby` has not eliminated the touch, in order to rid itself of the play the ball and maintain continuity while distancing itself from league they have `play on ` after the first touch. Stop, and a sort of bizarre throw the ball in the air to yourself and compulsory pass after the second touch. It is called a phase and you get two of them before a compulsory handover, dangerously close to a set. And as long as there is `touch` in involved there will always be trouble.

MrOriginalC`s  concerns may be allayed perhaps if the alternative, like union is slightly ridiculous, and if union fans want to play something for fun or fitness on a week night a TTRL sport , like they are now doing anyway may be their best option, may be too if the League thing is not overdone in areas where there may be sensitivities.

The only small concern of course with Tag is the cost of the Tag gear itself, I don`t think it would be exorbitant , you could put advertising on those Tags anyway.

I will leave it there for the moment even though I haven`t addressed the point about what name to consider  for a shortened version. But this an extremely long post any way and don`t want to overdo it. Will speak soon.

 

 

 

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Regarding cost for a player for TTR the standard shorts are £13 you can get other ones that are designed with a particular comp like Yorkshire or London etc too. It's approx £5 a session paid up front in bulk so £50 per player for 10 sessions which can seem a little pricey if like some do play in multiple leagues. A pack of tags are £45 (covered by the league). But to be apart of TTR you would need a franchise and that is the part that put me off. When thinking minimum contact, I thought about the options and I thought about setting up a league in Harrogate but the risk of the business and facilities costs on top. It might have worked if I could draw the corporate market to Harrogate potentially. 

 https://trytagrugby.com/yorkshire/franchise/

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14 hours ago, OriginalMrC said:

There's about 10,000 people playing weekly which I would say is pretty big. Most of the leagues are concentrated in London but it's growing all the time. Leagues are now in the midlands, Bristol, Manchester Yorkshire and Lancs. 

The growth partly addresses the point some have made about the extra cost of Tag relative to Touch. There have demonstrably been sufficient players willing to fund it, for it to independently reach the current level.

I was aware of the clip you posted of the RFL endorsing TTR. There have been others similar. It`s no different from the casual link-up at Magic Weekend. My general critique is the lack of coordination. That tangible benefits to RL will only follow when the RFL see Tag as a non-contact form of what they are the governing body for in the UK. Not as something they haphazardly give a nod to.

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On 09/09/2020 at 14:28, The Rocket said:

You are a cheeky ######, nice juxtaposition.

Yes, and tomorrow we will wrap this TTRL thread up. I think all we now is to decide what version of TTRL would be best for a World Cup. I like the Ladies Tag League you described, but we would need to think of a better name and then be able to refer to it as Womens and Mens. 

I think I can safely assume you are familiar with `Clancy of The Overflow`, there are some very beautiful images and sentiments described in that poem. Someone on here asked what is exactly the Australian Bush and that poem sprang to mind. Better than the Jolly Swagman. I`m done.

I was dealing with my Tag PhD thesis, so didn`t respond to this yesterday.

You`ll be delighted to know we are in firm accord over "Clancy of the Overflow", although your quotation of the opening is off the mark. Perhaps another attempt to "make it sound a little more contemporary"? - That`s a phrase calculated to have me reaching for my revolver.

The content of the poem bears a comparison with the conjecture there sometimes is on this forum on whether ideally we would like RL to be globally huge. There could be echoes of the move from rural to urban, where we would start to pine for the simpler days of relative obscurity.

I`m a long-term fan of the Aussie group the Go-Betweens. Their song "Cattle and Cane" is sometimes cited as resembling Paterson. I`m sure I read somewhere he did some RL reporting. Would have done it better than the current lot at NRL.com.

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12 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

.

I`m a long-term fan of the Aussie group the Go-Betweens. Their song "Cattle and Cane" is sometimes cited as resembling Paterson. I`m sure I read somewhere he did some RL reporting. Would have done it better than the current lot at NRL.com.

Just quickly, about `85 or `86,  mate of mine bought a group of us tickets to see Dire Straits at the Sydney Entertainment Centre in the city, all well and good, it was a good concert and can`t complain(bloody expensive though), anyway we left there probably about 11p.m and went up to the Old Tivoli (free entry, more my style) , went upstairs and blow me down Charlie the Go Betweens came on. Let`s put it this way, the next day I bought said album, vinyl in those days, still got it, just no record player.

Two things , never owned a Dire Straits record in my life, having said that they were good and had some great hits and secondly, when The Go Betweens came out for the encore, David Foster was wearing a very elegant evening dress, no one batted an eye and they played for about another 40 minutes. Real eye opener for this country boy.

The `Triffids` were a Western Australian band of the same era with a similar sound, they had an album `Born Sandy Devotional` with a song called `Wide Open Road`, I thought capturing similar sentiments.

The Sydney music scene of the 80`s, I have heard it compared in terms of vibrancy with New York a decade before, played a large part in my academic downfall and eventual expulsion from university. Banned again.

So much for `just quickly.`

Edit,   Since I sent the above post have found out that young Joel Dark passed away last night. Complete stranger to you blokes I know, I hope I haven`t been a pain in the a__e burdening you with it.

 

 

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6 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Just quickly, about `85 or `86,  mate of mine bought a group of us tickets to see Dire Straits at the Sydney Entertainment Centre in the city, all well and good, it was a good concert and can`t complain(bloody expensive though), anyway we left there probably about 11p.m and went up to the Old Tivoli (free entry, more my style) , went upstairs and blow me down Charlie the Go Betweens came on. Let`s put it this way, the next day I bought said album, vinyl in those days, still got it, just no record player.

Two things , never owned a Dire Straits record in my life, having said that they were good and had some great hits and secondly, when The Go Betweens came out for the encore, David Foster was wearing a very elegant evening dress, no one batted an eye and they played for about another 40 minutes. Real eye opener for this country boy.

The `Triffids` were a Western Australian band of the same era with a similar sound, they had an album `Born Sandy Devotional` with a song called `Wide Open Road`, I thought capturing similar sentiments.

The Sydney music scene of the 80`s, I have heard it compared in terms of vibrancy with New York a decade before, played a large part in my academic downfall and eventual expulsion from university. Banned again.

So much for `just quickly.`

Edit,   Since I sent the above post have found out that young Joel Dark passed away last night. Complete stranger to you blokes I know, I hope I haven`t been a pain in the a__e burdening you with it.

 

 

You`re going to think I`m picking on you, but unless David Foster was an audience member, it must have been Robert Forster channelling his inner David Bowie that night.

I also love the Triffids, favourite album "Calenture"( means sea-sickness delirium, apparently). I bought that just after reading a review panning it. It`s a good rule of thumb. Music journalists are as reliable as RL ones.

Other Aussie faves - The Saints (brisbane), Radio Birdman (Sydney), The Church (Sydney), The Scientists (Perth), Celibate Rifles (Sydney), Feedtime (Sydney), Paradise Motel (Tas), and of course the Hoodoo Gurus (Sydney) who played at an NRL GF.

Nothing from Melbourne, curiously. Unless I`m in a certain mood for The Birthday Party.

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1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

You`re going to think I`m picking on you, but unless David Foster was an audience member, it must have been Robert Forster channelling his inner David Bowie that night.

I also love the Triffids, favourite album "Calenture"( means sea-sickness delirium, apparently). I bought that just after reading a review panning it. It`s a good rule of thumb. Music journalists are as reliable as RL ones.

Other Aussie faves - The Saints (brisbane), Radio Birdman (Sydney), The Church (Sydney), The Scientists (Perth), Celibate Rifles (Sydney), Feedtime (Sydney), Paradise Motel (Tas), and of course the Hoodoo Gurus (Sydney) who played at an NRL GF.

Nothing from Melbourne, curiously. Unless I`m in a certain mood for The Birthday Party.

I was close, it has been a while. Wouldn`t have been David Bowie anyway, with my New York reference I was probably thinking David Byrne. I have used in the past a reference to his (i.e. Talking Heads) song  `Heaven` as being a good theme song for the union(the game they play in heaven apparently), and its line `Heaven is a place, where nothing ever happens`, however I think the song is a little too obscure for most people to get the dig, especially the union buffoons it was aimed at.

I am not really in the mood for the funnys today, but can not help myself telling you how I loved it when someone asked Byrne " why do you wear those large suits " and he replied " to make my head look smaller ". Stop making sense.

Not a fan of Nick Cave, when I`m in those moods you can`t go past Joy Division.

I am not a religious person U.P. but maybe if there is a heaven, young Joel Dark will be up there and he will tear them apart, they will probably play him in the centres though, bloody hopeless.

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4 hours ago, The Rocket said:

I was close, it has been a while. Wouldn`t have been David Bowie anyway, with my New York reference I was probably thinking David Byrne. I have used in the past a reference to his (i.e. Talking Heads) song  `Heaven` as being a good theme song for the union(the game they play in heaven apparently), and its line `Heaven is a place, where nothing ever happens`, however I think the song is a little too obscure for most people to get the dig, especially the union buffoons it was aimed at.

I am not really in the mood for the funnys today, but can not help myself telling you how I loved it when someone asked Byrne " why do you wear those large suits " and he replied " to make my head look smaller ". Stop making sense.

Not a fan of Nick Cave, when I`m in those moods you can`t go past Joy Division.

I am not a religious person U.P. but maybe if there is a heaven, young Joel Dark will be up there and he will tear them apart, they will probably play him in the centres though, bloody hopeless.

Might be clearing up something here that`s already clear. The Bowie reference was to his dress-wearing on the front cover of "The Man who sold the world".

Understand you`re not receptive to humour currently, but reading your impromptu Go-Betweens gig anecdote again, another possibility occurred to me. Namely, that you are David Foster, and that the post was an ingenious bluff. Your mates down at the saleyards might regard some of your literary tastes as tantamount to a penchant for flamboyance.

Lots of blots on Nick Cave`s copybook, including manhandling Kylie on an edition of Top of the Pops.

To be fair to the Victorian capital, just after I pressed submit, the wonderfully eclectic Melbourne duo Dead Can Dance popped into my head. The name sounds gothic, but it`s intended sentiment is actually not a million miles away from that of your final paragraph.

Couple of on-topic responses. Your advocacy of the fend for Tag is a non-starter. There won`t be many Tag players keen to fend or be fended. We should keep in mind the aim of Tag is to be a mass-participation version of RL. Aspects that enhance spectator appeal are for the Tackle game.

You are right that Touch must be a nightmare to referee. One reason I can`t take Netball seriously is the reverse situation where the slightest contact is illegal and officials are relentlessly in the game making impossible-to-get-right calls. In Tag the only tricky call that`s different from Tackle is whether a pass is made after the Tag is complete. Simultaneous is legal. So the logic is, benefit of the doubt to the team in possession.

 

 

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On 11/09/2020 at 23:01, unapologetic pedant said:

Might be clearing up something here that`s already clear. The Bowie reference was to his dress-wearing on the front cover of "The Man who sold the world".

Understand you`re not receptive to humour currently, but reading your impromptu Go-Betweens gig anecdote again, another possibility occurred to me. Namely, that you are David Foster, and that the post was an ingenious bluff. Your mates down at the saleyards might regard some of your literary tastes as tantamount to a penchant for flamboyance.

Lots of blots on Nick Cave`s copybook, including manhandling Kylie on an edition of Top of the Pops.

To be fair to the Victorian capital, just after I pressed submit, the wonderfully eclectic Melbourne duo Dead Can Dance popped into my head. The name sounds gothic, but it`s intended sentiment is actually not a million miles away from that of your final paragraph.

Couple of on-topic responses. Your advocacy of the fend for Tag is a non-starter. There won`t be many Tag players keen to fend or be fended. We should keep in mind the aim of Tag is to be a mass-participation version of RL. Aspects that enhance spectator appeal are for the Tackle game.

You are right that Touch must be a nightmare to referee. One reason I can`t take Netball seriously is the reverse situation where the slightest contact is illegal and officials are relentlessly in the game making impossible-to-get-right calls. In Tag the only tricky call that`s different from Tackle is whether a pass is made after the Tag is complete. Simultaneous is legal. So the logic is, benefit of the doubt to the team in possession.

 

 

I`m running on empty U.P. so I`ll stick to the important bits. Would it be worth trying to keep the fend for the weekend or what we might be called the League Tag version? Or even from shoulders down for long and short versions.

Soon as I hear you mention `benefit of the doubt ` my mind casts straight back to that forward pass bun fight. Like so many decisions for the ref it has to rely on their discretion and they must be encouraged not to be too pedantic, dare I say it. So touch has got refs discretion on both `touch` and `pass`, it just gets worse. Double Damned.

I put some maps up, go back a couple of posts you`ll see, and I revived the old thread associated with them , some very interesting comments and I really like the geographical spread. There is a couple of names in there who could be interesting contacts, James Gordon from LoveRugbyLeague and  I think HarrowGate mentions an Ashleigh Seddon `RFL Inclusion Officer. Wouldn`t be hard to contact these two perhaps to have some questions answered.

 

No bluff, sorry to disappoint, bit of flamboyance but only on the tennis court. So protective of Kylie.

 

 

 

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On 10/09/2020 at 02:26, unapologetic pedant said:

It`s disconcerting when OriginalMrC says that Tag "needs to be seen as being accessible to everyone". If a perception of Tag as non-contact RL might put some people off (presumably those with RU affections), it rather defeats the object of making converts if we give Tag a generic "Rugby" image.

The ideal scenario would be every RL club of any size running an Oztag League in its catchment area, with the option of a rep League Tag side at the weekend along with their Tackle sides. Each of the Oztag teams could wear a jersey with their team`s badge on the left and their RL parent club`s badge on the right, as do clubs in many of the junior leagues of NRL franchises.

If the RFL ran a short rep League Tag national competition, as things are, it would likely be dominated by South-East RL clubs. That`s a story which could attract wider media interest and sponsors

 There is a lot of pins on that map. It would be interesting to know the details of some of the smaller clubs.

Your second paragraph would probably be the best way forward and cut out the TryTagRugby altogether. The issue is whether these clubs have the manpower and resources to set up the alternative competitions. The lack of these resources may explain why the TryTagRugby franchise system has filled that gap in the market.

As OriginalMrC and HarrowGate points out the TTR franchise system relies on player numbers for the Franchisee to turn a profit therefore are unlikely to limit itself to appealing itself to either particular code. Therefore the generic term `Rugby`. Despite us League fans feeling we should be able to claim the whole genre for ourselves because of its similarity with League not union.

The highlighted and underlined sentence above of course the ideal situation. But as I said it would largely depend on the resources of the club to be able to participate. However optimistically it would seem from posters that progress is being made.

From having gone over the 2019 Annual RFL Report it would appear that TTR players are included in RL participation numbers. And importantly there does seem to be some efforts to focus on the word ` League` for example the `Our League` platform . Rather than continually referring to Rugby League as `Rugby`.

I think the RFL are learning from their southern hemisphere counterparts the value of product differentiation.

The last thing I would say though is that I think that it would still be a wise move to include the abbreviated version of the game in the RLWC. Even if it only achieved in encouraging more people to take up that version of the game. We can cross other bridges later on.

 

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On 11/09/2020 at 16:50, The Rocket said:

O.k.

 

This is a response to your longer post. For reasons of space I`m taking advantage of this mysterious offering. Maybe you could edit out the "O.k" to make it truly Pinter-esque.

The RFL`S 2019 figure for players was 109k. Where have you seen it stated that TTR players are included in that? I have no evidence to prove they are not, but equally I`ve seen nothing to indicate that they are.

TTRL`s appeal is to anybody, including RU players and fans. My argument is that a structure should be in place to ensure its players know that they are playing non-contact RL in an RL competition, just as RL players who took up 7s RU would know that they were playing RU in an RU competition. The PTB is the essence of RL. Yet Southern English and Irish Tag players seem to view it as just a modification to the rules of "Rugby" to make the game they play more viable.

By definition, ways have been found to fund the participation of existing TTR players. It`s primarily these players we want to see as part of the RL fold. Though of course, once this objective is secured, continuing growth is desirable, and should be more affordable since as numbers increase, per capita costs should fall.

A few of the clubs listed as having women`s teams, like in Wales or the North-East, have only played 1 or 2 games. If they attempted to play a season, a Tackle side is fraught with the risk that if they lose players to injury, the team starts forfeiting games, then collapses. If they could run Ladies League Tag sides, their women`s sections would be more sustainable.

NSW country LLT teams applaud on to the field one of their Tackle teams for the next game. Or if the LLT game is later, are themselves applauded on by a Tackle team. All of them wearing the same colours and representing the same club. Would UK RL secretaries not want that for their club? Or do they think RL has to have tackling or it isn`t RL?

In relation to the above two paragraphs, I read an assertion on an Aussie RL forum that women`s bodies are more prone to injury in contact sports. No idea how biologically sound this is, but you do notice a consistently high rate of carnage. I just watched the first 30-minute half of last week`s North Sydney/South Sydney semi, and already 3 players have been carted off with serious leg injuries. Women`s RL social media pages are replete with pics of players on crutches, arms in slings, and the interiors of hospitals.

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2 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

This is a response to your longer post. For reasons of space I`m taking advantage of this mysterious offering. Maybe you could edit out the "O.k" to make it truly Pinter-esque.

The RFL`S 2019 figure for players was 109k. Where have you seen it stated that TTR players are included in that? I have no evidence to prove they are not, but equally I`ve seen nothing to indicate that they are.

TTRL`s appeal is to anybody, including RU players and fans. My argument is that a structure should be in place to ensure its players know that they are playing non-contact RL in an RL competition, just as RL players who took up 7s RU would know that they were playing RU in an RU competition. The PTB is the essence of RL. Yet Southern English and Irish Tag players seem to view it as just a modification to the rules of "Rugby" to make the game they play more viable.

By definition, ways have been found to fund the participation of existing TTR players. It`s primarily these players we want to see as part of the RL fold. Though of course, once this objective is secured, continuing growth is desirable, and should be more affordable since as numbers increase, per capita costs should fall.

A few of the clubs listed as having women`s teams, like in Wales or the North-East, have only played 1 or 2 games. If they attempted to play a season, a Tackle side is fraught with the risk that if they lose players to injury, the team starts forfeiting games, then collapses. If they could run Ladies League Tag sides, their women`s sections would be more sustainable.

NSW country LLT teams applaud on to the field one of their Tackle teams for the next game. Or if the LLT game is later, are themselves applauded on by a Tackle team. All of them wearing the same colours and representing the same club. Would UK RL secretaries not want that for their club? Or do they think RL has to have tackling or it isn`t RL?

In relation to the above two paragraphs, I read an assertion on an Aussie RL forum that women`s bodies are more prone to injury in contact sports. No idea how biologically sound this is, but you do notice a consistently high rate of carnage. I just watched the first 30-minute half of last week`s North Sydney/South Sydney semi, and already 3 players have been carted off with serious leg injuries. Women`s RL social media pages are replete with pics of players on crutches, arms in slings, and the interiors of hospitals.

I may have been waiting for someone. Before you start assuming things ,not you.

In a single paragraph regards `Participation` the RFL 2019 report names all recognised existing forms of the code, Open age(M&F), juniors, wheel chair, touch and tag, masters in the 109k figure. The 109k figure is of course splashed across the page with references to `5% Growth` in true Orwellian fashion. 

This subsuming of Touch/Tag figures into the greater figure of course can be viewed two ways. One, they are using them to boost the headline figure of the more important category of Tackle. Or alternatively, they are embracing them as equals and including them as legitimate RL participants. We may have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The RL map that I posted I have been told consists mostly of teams. These are most likely to have neither the time nor the desire to run TTRL competitions. Just happy to train once a week and have a game on the weekend. And as I noted this may be why we have seen the TTR franchise system step into this void. To make a buck. And why they use the generic term `Rugby` to cast their net as wide as possible in their attempt to capture participants. Importantly TTR is affiliated and endorsed by the RFL and every player registered therefore included in RL participation figures.

Maybe we would be happier if these figures were more clearly defined.

I suppose for you and I it is the sight of all those union jerseys and tournaments like the one in Ireland with its seemed association with rugby(union) that galls.

Hearteningly though where RL clubs of sufficient size exist anecdotal evidence suggests that they are embracing these alternative versions of the code. Coventry Bears ran a community fitness programme which can be viewed on pg8 of this forum. This could be the future of RL clubs. Community Lifestyle centres of which RL teams of the various forms are at their heart. Not dissimilar to the Leagues Club behemoths created in NSW, many worth 100`s of million of dollars who were originally founded to fund a RL team and now have grown to provide a myriad of services including gambling, restaurants, live entertainment, fitness, etc. etc.

Of course everything you say in Paragraphs 5 & 6 is perfectly true and the idea of teams of either variety applauding each other team on to the field is the kind of idyllic scenario that we envisage at any sporting club. A little like FightingIrish`s hilarious description in the `Something Light Hearted Thread` of all the participating teams sticking around  for the final of a tournament he played in.

There are similar statistics with regards to serious knee injuries regarding Womens afl. I suppose really it may not be surprising given the physiological differences between men and women.

For me UP the best way forward would be for the various governing bodies world wide would to be to get TTRL in the WC as soon as is logistically possible I look forward to the day when a full sized pitch 11/13 a team, with fend🙂, and the dazzling Kayln Ponga`s and Ben Barbas can wow us with their skills in this version of the game, televised at a WC.

 

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8 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

I may have been waiting for someone. Before you start assuming things ,not you.

In a single paragraph regards `Participation` the RFL 2019 report names all recognised existing forms of the code, Open age(M&F), juniors, wheel chair, touch and tag, masters in the 109k figure. The 109k figure is of course splashed across the page with references to `5% Growth` in true Orwellian fashion. 

This subsuming of Touch/Tag figures into the greater figure of course can be viewed two ways. One, they are using them to boost the headline figure of the more important category of Tackle. Or alternatively, they are embracing them as equals and including them as legitimate RL participants. We may have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The RL map that I posted I have been told consists mostly of teams. These are most likely to have neither the time nor the desire to run TTRL competitions. Just happy to train once a week and have a game on the weekend. And as I noted this may be why we have seen the TTR franchise system step into this void. To make a buck. And why they use the generic term `Rugby` to cast their net as wide as possible in their attempt to capture participants. Importantly TTR is affiliated and endorsed by the RFL and every player registered therefore included in RL participation figures.

 

Unassumingly, I assume you are not "Waiting for my man".

This question of the figures can only be definitively cleared up by someone who actually knows, but if I were betting your farm on it, I`d say the 109k does not include TTR players. And surely not Touch. In fact, if the number of Tackle players were 109k minus Tag and Touch, we might be in the red for playing numbers. That would be more William Burroughs than Orwell.

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On 11/09/2020 at 14:38, The Rocket said:

I`m running on empty U.P. so I`ll stick to the important bits. Would it be worth trying to keep the fend for the weekend or what we might be called the League Tag version? Or even from shoulders down for long and short versions.

Soon as I hear you mention `benefit of the doubt ` my mind casts straight back to that forward pass bun fight. Like so many decisions for the ref it has to rely on their discretion and they must be encouraged not to be too pedantic, dare I say it. So touch has got refs discretion on both `touch` and `pass`, it just gets worse. Double Damned.

I put some maps up, go back a couple of posts you`ll see, and I revived the old thread associated with them , some very interesting comments and I really like the geographical spread. There is a couple of names in there who could be interesting contacts, James Gordon from LoveRugbyLeague and  I think HarrowGate mentions an Ashleigh Seddon `RFL Inclusion Officer. Wouldn`t be hard to contact these two perhaps to have some questions answered.

 

No bluff, sorry to disappoint, bit of flamboyance but only on the tennis court. So protective of Kylie.

 

 

 

The most famous use of the "benefit of the doubt" in sport is that given to the batsman in cricket. Had their administrators not had the wit to realise that a bad decision for a batsman was terminal, and had instead instructed umpires to give the benefit to the bowler, an innings would generally not have lasted very long. We have a "benefit of the doubt" protocol now for RL video decisions where, following a referral, if the video ref cannot find sufficient evidence to overturn, the "benefit of the doubt" goes to the on-field call. Makes perfect sense.

Twas not always thus. When video was first used, the on-field ref just handed the decision on to someone who was assumed to be in a better position to make it. On the occasions when that wasn`t the case, the video ref spent minutes agonising, panicking, asking for more camera angles, finally realising not only that he would have to guess, but that the on-field ref had a better view than any provided for him. They addressed this problem with "ref`s call", where the matter was sent back to the on-field ref when the video ref couldn`t call it with certainty. Eventually we moved to what we currently have.

The fact that it took years to arrive at a logical procedure shows how simplistic an attitude RL administrators and media have to the application of the game`s rules. If Fox League pundits were asked in which direction the benefit of the doubt should go in relation to forward passes, knock-ons, ball-steals, It would probably produce blank looks. It`s not something they give much thought to. For them, the ref is there to get it right, simple as that.

What if the officials, on what they see, don`t know what happened, and couldn`t possibly know what happened?

BTW, and this will probably mean nothing to an Aussie. -  Not many people would have thought Harrogate needed a poshness upgrade.

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7 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Unassumingly, I assume you are not "Waiting for my man".

This question of the figures can only be definitively cleared up by someone who actually knows, but if I were betting your farm on it, I`d say the 109k does not include TTR players. And surely not Touch. In fact, if the number of Tackle players were 109k minus Tag and Touch, we might be in the red for playing numbers. That would be more William Burroughs than Orwell.

Had another look at the 2019 report. Mentions: "Community RL, third year of consecutive growth. In terms of regular participation, we have achieved growth across the core market settings of Primary, Junior, Youth and Open."

Elsewhere Wheelchair, Social RL- Tag and Touch and Masters all grew in 2019.

You may well be right, the latter do not fall under the `Community RL` banner therefore not included in the 109k figure. Damn. Back to square one.

Harrowgate, the gates of Harrow, it`s all in the `w`. Am familiar with Harrow. Reminds me of an episode of Frasier where Roz, Frazier`s man hungry producer is introduced to the English brother of Frasiers Housekeeper, Daphne named Simon who is one of the track suit pant wearing, beer swilling, `Here we go, here we go` Manchurian type and says `ooh don`t you love that English accent, so sophisticated, just like a Prince". I see Harro,  I think Harrow, we just think you blokes are all real posh like, except you Pedant, your lack of breeding( a very English concept) is patently obvious everytime you open your mouth.😉

If you want to have a laugh have a look at pg40 &41 of the 2019 RFL report on pg10 of the threads. Classic hamfisted RL attempt to find a photo to match corresponding article. What is that picture meant to suggest? I wonder if the kid involved knows.

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On 06/09/2020 at 17:32, Mr Plow said:

Try Tag Rugby in the Uk is RFL affiliated. I do like the idea of it being part of the RLWC along side the men’s, women’s and wheelchair, could really help promote TR and RL more 

I play Tag Rugby and it would be brilliant if it was included in the World Cup. If they introduce a category for 55 plus and not that good, I might be in with a shout.

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5 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Had another look at the 2019 report. Mentions: "Community RL, third year of consecutive growth. In terms of regular participation, we have achieved growth across the core market settings of Primary, Junior, Youth and Open."

Elsewhere Wheelchair, Social RL- Tag and Touch and Masters all grew in 2019.

You may well be right, the latter do not fall under the `Community RL` banner therefore not included in the 109k figure. Damn. Back to square one.

Harrowgate, the gates of Harrow, it`s all in the `w`. Am familiar with Harrow. Reminds me of an episode of Frasier where Roz, Frazier`s man hungry producer is introduced to the English brother of Frasiers Housekeeper, Daphne named Simon who is one of the track suit pant wearing, beer swilling, `Here we go, here we go` Manchurian type and says `ooh don`t you love that English accent, so sophisticated, just like a Prince". I see Harro,  I think Harrow, we just think you blokes are all real posh like, except you Pedant, your lack of breeding( a very English concept) is patently obvious everytime you open your mouth.😉

If you want to have a laugh have a look at pg40 &41 of the 2019 RFL report on pg10 of the threads. Classic hamfisted RL attempt to find a photo to match corresponding article. What is that picture meant to suggest? I wonder if the kid involved knows.

I`ll dig out an English history book and try to locate which part of the country the Manchurians are native to. Might have been around the time of Cheddar man. Their latter-day descendants sound a right collection of likely candidates.

The actress who played Daphne is from East-Grinstead in Sussex. Never understood why they had her put on a Northern accent. Wouldn`t have fooled many in the RL heartlands, but the Americans appeared none the wiser. You though, as an Aussie RL fan, must be able to recognise a fake Manchurian accent.

You might have worked out that regarding non-contact RL, my preference is for Tag over Touch. This is partly because it`s inherently a lot closer to Tackle RL, and thus less vulnerable to usurpation by insidious trends in society. Also, there`s more skill involved in both making and evading the tag. The only downside of Tag, vis-a-vis Touch, is cost.

If it were played alongside the Tackle WC, it would be a pity not to make use of the full-size pitch and goalposts to play fully-fledged League Tag. The shortened form would merely be a mini-replica of the established Tag WC. And with Oztag played on roughly half a pitch, it would mean ersatz markings.

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28 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Wouldn`t have fooled many in the RL heartlands, but the Americans appeared none the wiser. You though, as an Aussie RL fan, must be able to recognise a fake Manchurian accent.

You kidding, I appeared none the wiser. The only Manchurians that I can think of is the Gallagher bros. And they mumble.

When Tag came along I thought it was a gimmick, similar to the way I predicted that the computer would never catch on.

According to the TryTagRugby website there is only the purchase of the Tags and they will grip to any materials that shorts are made of. Surely then the cost can not be that high? Am I missing something?

Yes agree that Touch is probably a little too easy, may be more suitable to certain demographics.

Sure you can`t give a little on the fend? Would look spectacular when a centre makes a break, cover comes across, dives and is fended away by the sprinting no.4. You might change your mind after seeing Greg Inglis in action next year. That try of his in SOO where he palms the fullback off and then proceeds to half trample, half hurdle him would be one of the great tries of all time.

I think at some point we need to take stock of where we are with this TTRL subject. I don`t think that many would dispute that LeagueTag on full sized field could be hit. My instincts tell me that could be a more appealing spectacle than even 9`s and certainly the twiz that 7`s is. I think because , like you said , its close resemblance to the real thing, aided by the extra numbers on the field. I was wondering whether that purists and even the RFL may see an attractive tackle free version as a threat to the tackle version. Personally, like cricket, you would like to think that the original version would remain the pinnacle.

I saw that the Ready4Rugby has a two-metre rule. Can`t see that working either, two steps forward and the defence is level with the marker, may prove very hard to make ground. 

 

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1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

You kidding, I appeared none the wiser. The only Manchurians that I can think of is the Gallagher bros. And they mumble.

When Tag came along I thought it was a gimmick, similar to the way I predicted that the computer would never catch on.

According to the TryTagRugby website there is only the purchase of the Tags and they will grip to any materials that shorts are made of. Surely then the cost can not be that high? Am I missing something?

Yes agree that Touch is probably a little too easy, may be more suitable to certain demographics.

Sure you can`t give a little on the fend? Would look spectacular when a centre makes a break, cover comes across, dives and is fended away by the sprinting no.4. You might change your mind after seeing Greg Inglis in action next year. That try of his in SOO where he palms the fullback off and then proceeds to half trample, half hurdle him would be one of the great tries of all time.

I think at some point we need to take stock of where we are with this TTRL subject. I don`t think that many would dispute that LeagueTag on full sized field could be hit. My instincts tell me that could be a more appealing spectacle than even 9`s and certainly the twiz that 7`s is. I think because , like you said , its close resemblance to the real thing, aided by the extra numbers on the field. I was wondering whether that purists and even the RFL may see an attractive tackle free version as a threat to the tackle version. Personally, like cricket, you would like to think that the original version would remain the pinnacle.

I saw that the Ready4Rugby has a two-metre rule. Can`t see that working either, two steps forward and the defence is level with the marker, may prove very hard to make ground. 

 

I`ve put the microscope on the first sentence here, searching for irony, and I don`t think I detect any.

Hence, I`ll just cautiously suggest you look up the word "Manchurian".

I`ll address the other points in a separate post.

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8 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I`ve put the microscope on the first sentence here, searching for irony, and I don`t think I detect any.

Hence, I`ll just cautiously suggest you look up the word "Manchurian".

I`ll address the other points in a separate post.

Done, woops. This typing business is hard work and sometimes I can`t be bothered to even go up the top there and check the meaning of things. Give me a break, at least I was close spelling wise just not so close as far as the crow flies. Swear I heard Tony Robinson mention them on Time Team.

Have to laugh though at the thought of you scratching your head and thinking `mmmm what could he possibly mean?`

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I thought I`d fended off the Rocket`s fend proposal. I reiterate that this is thinking of Tag in spectator sport terms. 

Tackle RL has potential mass-spectator appeal, but limited attraction as a participation sport. Tag RL has potential mass-participation appeal, but limited attraction as a spectator sport. They should complement each other. What`s good for one is not necessarily good for the other. Plus, a ball-carrier fending off an attempted tag would look, and be, very different from fending off an attempted tackle.

All RU attempts to devise their own version of Tag, either move too uncomfortably close to League, or stray into "It`s a knockout" territory. This is the main cause for optimism that, despite the missed opportunities hitherto, the RFL (and other leagues around the world) can still turn this around if there`s a will. It is happening in NSW with "Monarch Blues Tag", and in Auckland with "Kiwitag".

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